Gojet Class Starts

[PCL_128]

Second, since you have apologized for your contribution to the race to the bottom, then the Gojet guys should get the same forgiveness, Mr. Compassion.

The BloJets whores know what they are doing. They aren't newbies that don't know what SCABs, PFT, and alter-ego carriers are. They know that they are stabbing the TSA pilots in the back, and they just don't care. That's a big difference from the newbies at RAA, GIA, Riddle's CAPT program, etc... If you don't see the difference then you really are an idiot.

 

[Reebo]

J32driver,

You can always get your reputation back with ALPA. All you have to do is pay a penalty fee and you are taken off of a "scab" list. ALPA's only principle is $$$$$$$.

wrong! you are NEVER removed from the list. some scabs did penance and were forgiven by ALPA (but not forgotten) and re-admitted.

The only people who are scabs are those who cross a picket line. BTW did the TSA pilots, and all other ALPA pilots, go to work when there fellow union brethren at ComAir and NWA went on strike? I seem to remember that they did. That was quiet a strong showing of union solidarity. Would that make them scabs?

you answered your own question.the only people who are scabs are those who cross a picket line. other ALPA groups that flew during that time flew their own routes, not those of the striking carrier. we also paid our strike assement to help those on the picket line, gave jumpseats so they could get around and even walked the line with those on strike. i will let comair pilots speak on that but i feel there was quite a strong showing of union solidarity.

Also, I bet that when TSA started back in the 80's that they didn't have a union. If that is the case make sure that when you see an 80's hire at work that you refer to him as a "scab".

not hardly, you really need to educate yourself before you go off on your rants. TSA was started as a turbo prop operation carying folks from STL to the lodge of the four seasons (LOF) at the lake of the ozarks. no one flew this route and the airline wasnt created to get around anothers scope clause.

In the end I bet the GoJet will be union and integrated into TSA.

CLAMBAKE

thats the whole point. all flying under the TSA umbrella being flown by pilots on the TSA ALPA seniority list.

 

[8v8ter]

So by that logic every pilot hired at a regional airline 7 years ago is a whore. Wow your lack of experience is showing

Not true. I was hired at TSA in 1996 and they did not have any PFT and paid a 60 hour guarantee during training (70 hours on line, old contract).

This is not to defend how the management has treated the pilot group otherwise and Gojet trying to go around a very loyal and hardworking pilot group is criminal, just to save a few bucks.

 

[ren]

Anyone know who is in this first class yet?

 

[jobear]

wanna be scabs and freedom rejects?

 

[pkober]

Reebo,

Relax.

1st. Okay ALPA doesn't remove you from the list but they "forgive" you. Doesn't that bother you that a union will call you a "scab" one minute and then forgive you the next if you write them a check? It should, because I thought unions were about principle, not money. Trust me one day you too will see what ALPA is all about. I personally hope it doesn't happen to you, but it probably will.

2nd. I never said that the other ALPA pilots that flew during the ComAir and NWA strikes were scabs. They weren't. It was merely an example of the lack of union brotherhood that ALPA displays. Look at what the automotive worker unions do when there is a strike.

3rd. My TSA example was an attempt to show that if you call the GoJet guys "scabs" then I guess every major pilot could call every regional pilot a scab because they feel they are being stabbed in the back. I don't think that regional pilots are scabs before you go off on your "rant". BTW I was working at TSA in the 80's and they were flying in TWE colors.

Thanks

CLAMBAKE

 

[PCL_128]

1st. Okay ALPA doesn't remove you from the list but they "forgive" you. Doesn't that bother you that a union will call you a "scab" one minute and then forgive you the next if you write them a check? It should, because I thought unions were about principle, not money. Trust me one day you too will see what ALPA is all about. I personally hope it doesn't happen to you, but it probably will.

So you would have ALPA turn their back on the majority of the pilots at CAL that didn't SCAB just because a minority of them did? You should talk to someone that was on the ALPA BOD at the time and ask them what the reason was that they let CAL back into the fold. Were there a few people on the BOD seeing dollar signs at the thought of a few thousand more dues paying members? Sure. Overall however, most of the BOD members were more concerned with bringing the CAL ALPA pilots back that didn't SCAB. Yes, that means that the SCABs would also have an opportunity to join ALPA, but that's just what we have to deal with in order to bring the good CAL pilots back into ALPA.

2nd. I never said that the other ALPA pilots that flew during the ComAir and NWA strikes were scabs. They weren't. It was merely an example of the lack of union brotherhood that ALPA displays. Look at what the automotive worker unions do when there is a strike.

The UAW isn't bound by the restrictions of the Railway Labor Act. We don't have the latitude that other unions do. Look at what the APA had to pay in fines for their illegal sickout. I certainly don't want ALPA to have to pay out millions and millions of dollars in fines for illegal work actions that really aren't going to help the situation. Comparing the UAW to ALPA just doesn't work.

3rd. My TSA example was an attempt to show that if you call the GoJet guys "scabs" then I guess every major pilot could call every regional pilot a scab because they feel they are being stabbed in the back. I don't think that regional pilots are scabs before you go off on your "rant". BTW I was working at TSA in the 80's and they were flying in TWE colors.

The pilots at the majors knowingly negotiated away certain sections of their scope clause allowing regional pilots to fly certain airplanes and routes. Regional pilots didn't stab any major pilots in the back. We simply fly the flying that the major pilots negotiated away. The TSA pilots on the other hand didn't negotiate away anything. The management at TSA is trying to illegally create an alter ego carrier to get around ALPA. There is no comparison whatsoever.

 

[JackFlyer]

We simply fly the flying that the major pilots negotiated away.

So PCL-128....
1. Let's get this right. Basically as long as you are flying it, it is ok.

The TSA pilots on the other hand didn't negotiate away anything. The management at TSA is trying to illegally create an alter ego carrier to get around ALPA. There is no comparison whatsoever.

2. "TSA pilots didn't give anything away"... Your right their Negotating Comitee was way to stupid to properly word their contract to include the holding company in the definition on "the compnay." Again ALPA's to blame. Their policy of "Pilots negotiate for Pilots", when the company has professionals, is ludacris.

 

[FO 4 Life]

The management at TSA is trying to illegally create an alter ego carrier to get around ALPA.

Don't you mean get around APA?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

2. "TSA pilots didn't give anything away"... Your right their Negotating Comitee was way to stupid to properly word their contract to include the holding company in the definition on "the compnay." Again ALPA's to blame. Their policy of "Pilots negotiate for Pilots", when the company has professionals, is ludacris.

I believe there was no holding company in place at the time that the last TSA contract was signed.

Secondly, ALPA provides quite a bit in the way of negotiations assistance during negotiations. In other words, it isn't just "pilots negotiating for pilots." Professional negotiators, financial analysts, legal assistance, retirement and insurance assistance, etc. In the last year of bargaining our contract at ExpressJet, we had the Director of Representation, Assistant Director of Representation, as well as a Contract Administrator working with us. Yes, three attorneys from National advised us for the last 12 months and it was two prior to that point.

-Neal

 

[airjackson]

Jacka$$flyer,

Dude, seriously, can you spell?

 

[theo]

I believe there was no holding company in place at the time that the last TSA contract was signed.


-Neal

Why do you believe that? Do you have any documents that show the holding company came later? I keep seeing both sides saying it was there already and others saying it wasn't. Does any one on this board really know or is it all just posturing to support which ever position you are taking?

 

[PCL_128]

2. "TSA pilots didn't give anything away"... Your right their Negotating Comitee was way to stupid to properly word their contract to include the holding company in the definition on "the compnay." Again ALPA's to blame. Their policy of "Pilots negotiate for Pilots", when the company has professionals, is ludacris.

The contract is worded just fine. After this goes to an arbitrator it will be ruled in favor of the TSA pilots and BloJets will be no more. "Pilots negotiate for Pilots" with the help of dozens of support staff at ALPA national including many lawyers and professional negotiators. Also, at many airlines there are former lawyers on the negotiating committee. The system works just fine.

 

[PCL_128]

Don't you mean get around APA?

No, I don't. Dispite what the RJDC wants you to believe, this has nothing to do with scope. If this was just about getting around the APA scope clause then TSA could create a seperate airline with a single seniority list so the TSA pilots could do the flying. TSA management is just using the APA scope clause as an excuse to screw over the TSA pilots and ALPA.

 

[fuelflow]

theo -

You can go to the State of Missouri's website and find it there. TSA holdings was incorporated in 1998.

 

[theo]

theo -

You can go to the State of Missouri's website and find it there. TSA holdings was incorporated in 1998.

Thanks for the info...I assume that the CBA in question was signed after 1998?

 

[pkober]

PCL 128,

I want to make sure I have it right.

If the ALPA BOD say that GoJet pilots can join ALPA today, does that then mean all is forgiven?

As far as the CAL issue. I am trying to show that if ALPA is concerned about scabs then they could have said all non scab CAL pilots can join ALPA. If that meant that the deal didn't go thru, then so be it. ALPA needs to stand on principle.

You can tell that I and most ex-TWA pilots (aka burger flippers) aren't big fans of ALPA. We saw what they think of "little guys". I hope you never have to see what they truly think of regional guys. I can't tell you how many times I heard ALPA members speak with contempt about regionals. I think they're wrong because regionals fill a hole that some, not all, ALPA major pilots were to arrogant to want to fill.

These issues should never get to the point of hating the pilot because of the company he decided to work for.

Good luck.

CLAMBAKE

 

[PCL_128]

If the ALPA BOD say that GoJet pilots can join ALPA today, does that then mean all is forgiven?

Ridiculous hypothetical. Just ain't gonna happen.

As far as the CAL issue. I am trying to show that if ALPA is concerned about scabs then they could have said all non scab CAL pilots can join ALPA. If that meant that the deal didn't go thru, then so be it. ALPA needs to stand on principle.

Standing on principal is all well and good, but I don't see how it's supposed to help the situation by not admitting the good CAL pilots back into the fold. In the end, standing on principal and refusing to allow the SCABs back in would have killed the plan to bring CAL back into ALPA. That's not good for ALPA national, it's not good for the respectable CAL pilots, and it's not good for the pilots at any other ALPA carrier. Principal is great, but pragmatism needs to enter the picture at some point.

You can tell that I and most ex-TWA pilots (aka burger flippers) aren't big fans of ALPA. We saw what they think of "little guys". I hope you never have to see what they truly think of regional guys. I can't tell you how many times I heard ALPA members speak with contempt about regionals. I think they're wrong because regionals fill a hole that some, not all, ALPA major pilots were to arrogant to want to fill.

These issues should never get to the point of hating the pilot because of the company he decided to work for.

I won't get into a big argument over TWA, but suffice it to say that everyone likes to find a scapegoat for their frustrations. ALPA is a very easy target for all of the TWA pilots that lost their jobs. The anger you have should really be directed at the APA. Do you think you would be in the same situation if American was an ALPA carrier when the merger took place? I think not. The problem is a lack of unity throughout the profession. That's why it's important to bring airlines like CAL back into ALPA and to keep ALPA drives going at airlines like Skywest and Commutair. The more airlines under the ALPA umbrella, the safer we all are.

As for the major pilots disliking the regional drivers, I can't say that I blame them. Look at the posts on the RJDC threads from the Dan Ford supporters. If a bunch of senior regional pilots were trying to steal my 767 left seat gig, then I think I'd be pretty upset at the regionals too. Is their anger misplace? Of course it is. Not all regional pilots feel the way the RJDC pukes do. Most of us want to do our time and move on past the regionals. Unfortunately, the RJDC regional lifers are a very vocal minority and cast a bad light on all of us. I certainly don't like the fact the major pilots dislike us, but I can certainly understand it.

 

[BoilerUP]

The RJDC and this entire thread would be a moot point if 10-15 years ago the mainline MECs wouldn't have thought their squadron buddies too good to start their civilian careers in a dinky 50 seat jet. Giving that flying away to "commuter trash" has caused the problem of outsourcing and whipsawing we are dealing with now.

Then again, I'm young, and hindsight is always 20/20...

 

[PCL_128]

The RJDC and this entire thread would be a moot point if 10-15 years ago the mainline MECs wouldn't have thought their squadron buddies too good to start their civilian careers in a dinky 50 seat jet.

True. Very true. Too bad we can't go back and change it. I'm sure the mainline guys would make a different decision if they had it to do over again. Like you said though, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[pkober]

PCL 128 & Boilerup,

You're both right. There is a definite lack of unity among pilots.

If the major pilots hadn't put there head in the sand about the regional issue back in the early 90's they wouldn't be b&*^hing now. It's there own fault.

As far as the TWA thing goes this is definetly not the place to get deeper into it and besides it's a moot point.

One question for all TSA pilot.

Did management come to the pilots with GoJets first or were you blind sided by it? If they did come to the pilots first, why did it get to the point it is at now?

Not trying to throw spears, just trying to figure out this situation.

BoilerUp,

If you are going to UPT then lighten up on bashing military pilots until you're out of UPT. Once you get your wings you can speak up on that issue. Trust me.

Peace, out

CLAMBAKE

 

[BluDevAv8r]

theo -

You can go to the State of Missouri's website and find it there. TSA holdings was incorporated in 1998.

What is the link to that site with the reference?

 

[BoilerUP]

BoilerUp,

If you are going to UPT then lighten up on bashing military pilots until you're out of UPT. Once you get your wings you can speak up on that issue. Trust me.

In the early 90s mainline pilots had the opportunity to secure any turbojet flying to be done under their colors. Being the smallest airplane in the fleet, it would have been the most junior, and some people felt they were above flying such a "small" airplane. They gave that 50 seat flying up to companies like Comair, XJT and Eagle thinking it would never be a threat to them. Now, only after opening the dam and having their careers threatened by regional pilots, they are trying to reverse the flow.

You highly misunderstood me if you think I was bashing military pilots with my statement. You also are mistaken if you think ex-military pilots are automatically deserving, or more deserving than civilian pilots, of a major airline job in a Boeing or an Airbus.

Prove to me any of that is wrong or incorrect, and I'll publically apologize and shut my mouth.

 

[pkober]

BoilerUp,

First with your attitude enjoy Navigator training. I think it's all done with the Navy now.

Second. I want my apology. When did I say that ex-military pilots are more deserving of major airline jobs.

A simple "I'm sorry" will do.

What unit picked you up anyway?

CLAMBAKE

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Even if it involves screwing fellow pilots. Yeah, real classy.

I agree, but self-centered greed seems to be the way of America these days.

 

[BoilerUP]

BoilerUp,

First with your attitude enjoy Navigator training. I think it's all done with the Navy now.

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement. I think I have a pretty good attitude; I work hard, I'm thankful for the opportunities provided to me, and I don't have any sense of entitlement.

Second. I want my apology. When did I say that ex-military pilots are more deserving of major airline jobs.

A simple "I'm sorry" will do.

You didn't. You somehow made my statement that early 90s mainline MECs didn't want their squadron buddies in a "lowly RJ" into an insult against military aviators. It was HARDLY an insult to anybody, and certainly not my intent, so I don't exactly know how you connected the dots. I *assumed* you took offense to the thought that ex-military pilots might have to fly smaller airplanes when they start their civilian flying career. I said you were mistaken if you thought military pilots were more deserving. If you do, then yes you are mistaken. If you don't, then you don't have anything to worry about. Besides, the information in my first paragraph is what I was referring to when I said if you could prove me wrong, I'll apologize.

What unit picked you up anyway?

A unit that realizes postings on an online message board do extremely little to reflect one's skills, abilities, or professionalism. Also, one that appreciates integrity, honesty, and the ability to see the big picture despite what my own situation and/or opinions might be.

I think we have a gross misunderstanding between us, and there is no need to further hijack this GoJet thread with it. If you have any more questions or comments for me, send them via PM.

 

[100LL... Again!]

The BloJets whores know what they are doing. They aren't newbies that don't know what SCABs, PFT, and alter-ego carriers are. They know that they are stabbing the TSA pilots in the back, and they just don't care. That's a big difference from the newbies at RAA, GIA, Riddle's CAPT program, etc... If you don't see the difference then you really are an idiot.

It's very different.

It's different because I'll forgive a pilots with years of experience and years of paying their dues in this business before I forgive a snot-nosed punk who tried to use his wallet to cut in front of everyone else because he thought he was too good to earn his way up the ladder.

I'll be really pleased if GoJet is not ruled alter-ego, if only to spite wanna-be's pretending to be lifelong career professionals.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

LOL look at their mins for f/o's ...

Minimums:
First Officer
1500 hours Fixed-wing
500 hours Multi-engine
Turbine experience preferred

Goodluck gojets with all regionals hiring right now with about 1000/200..

FD

 

[millhouse21]

Their mins for FOs are the same as at Trans States. What's also interesting is that their mins for street capt are the same as the upgrade requirement at Trans States. Coincidence? Must be; after all, it is a different company.

 

[propjob27]

I will admit, I have not read this entire thread. So I apologize if this has been covered:

All the cut and pastes about GoJets contract are just guesses, or just copies of what the company has asked its pilots for. As of now, GoJets does not have any sort of contract. It's still being negotiated.

What if, when the thing finally does come out, it's equal to or possibly better than TSA's? What are people going to say then?

Just curious.

PS. Im curious what ever happened to Freedom in the end?