Gojet Class Starts

[MINIME]

100LL...Again...


A cohort of mine is starting class there. He is a furloughed and got the blessing from his Union to work there. If there is alot of furloughed 121 guys going there I would be carefull of threating any list.. It could back fire on you for these guys will be back at the Big Show before any TSA guys will, also they have been in this small world business alot longer.

First of all, I can't imagine any union giving anyone any blessings for going to an alter ego such as GoJet and Freedom. Second, it is not just the TSA guys who are going to experience the side affects from what will be the underbidder galore of the industry. Third, don't kid yourself, at this rate these righteous 121 bigshots are not going to have any Big Shows to go back to. It'll be a minimum wage regional industry before not too long.

As for Mr. 100 LL, I shouldn't have to pay for somebody's choice to go to an airline that unfortunately furloughed him/her. I'm assumimg you've been furloughed in the past. I have, it sucks. But trying to step on other people for personal advancement just adds fuel to the fire. It is attitudes such as these, that corporate people like J.O. are counting on to spread their poison. If you need a job to pay the bills until you're recalled, look at Polar, Kalita, USA 3000 and the such. Hell, Coex is hiring. But don't contribute to lowering my wages, your wages and that of my peers around the industry by taking jobs at alter egoes.

 

[JackFlyer]

This is all ALPA fault anyways

This is all ALPA's fault anyways.... Dwyane Worth needs to get his head out of his rear! He needs to get control of this industry. I have been an ALPA member for 6+ years and in that time I have seen my union dues hard at work when:

1) Freedom Air started
2) Eagle Jets flown by TSA pilots
3) CoEx lose flying to Gulfstream
4) AWA lose 20+years of service to other LOWER wage carriers
5) Mesa whore itself out to every airline in the world
6) The largest Pension default in US history
7) USAir Pilots Flying E-170 four $60/hr
8) 400+ American Pilots as CA on RJ's when a FO with 7+yr and 5000 in type cannot be a capt.

Now you sit here on this board and bitch that no one should go to GoJets, because they didn't have the balls to walk a picket line to get a NO ALTER EGO CLAUSE in their contract.

ALPA needs to wake up!!!

TSA Pilots.... WTF... Are you guys that bitch and complain about GOJet's, the same Pilots that refuse to fly those 10 EMB-145's that have an American Eagle Registion on the door? OH WAIT I forgot....NO your still fly them!

 

[JackFlyer]

There is a very very very simple solution to the TSA vs GoJets debate....

TSA.... STOP FLYING FOR AA!!!

Then there will be no need for GOJETS.


SO EVERYONE JUST SHUT UP AND BE DONE WITH THIS...

You CAN'T always have your CAKE and EAT it TOO!

 

[PCL_128]

Yeah, because the TSA pilots really get to make the decisions as to who their airline flies for.

 

[Reebo]

There is a very very very simple solution the the TSA vs GoJets debate....

TSA.... STOP FLYING FOR AA!!!

Then there will be no need for GOJETS.


SO EVERYONE JUST SHUT UP AND BE DONE WITH THIS...

You CAN'T always have your CAKE and EAT it TOO!

i understand your frustration, but quit beating a dead horse. i have yet to meet ANY pilot who determines where aircraft are purchased from and what logo is put on the tail. good luck with your grievance against AMR.

 

[fastbird]

Somebody start the list...if they ain't paying...they ain't riding.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Well I'm glad you are happy with them. I witnessed first hand at what happend at AirWis in the early 90s and at another regional carrier I worked for they never even showed up to talk to us and when they did they didnt even know who we were.. I would suppose that through the years they now have recognized that their biggest customer in the future are going to be RJ guys. Good Luck

ALPA isn't perfect. No form of representation is perfect. Many pilots, however, have an unrealistic expectation of what ALPA (or any union) can or should do for them. Reading this thread (and the dozens of other threads that bash ALPA) is indicative of this fact. So many blames are placed in the wrong place. Lastly, too much emphasis is placed on "ALPA National" and fail to realize that they should look at their own MEC if they have issues with "ALPA."

-Neal

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Lastly, too much emphasis is placed on "ALPA National" and fail to realize that they should look at their own MEC if they have issues with "ALPA."

-Neal

Neal,

I know the hard work, commitment, and sacrifice you showed during the recent negotiations at XJT. But I have to call "BS" on your comment. THE MOST effective leaders are those that lead by example. Right now, I'd question how effective ALPA National leadership is performing, at least from a regional pilots perspective.

If ALPA is going to succeed, then National is going to have to give up their "lets only protect the senior mainline guys" attitude. A good part of the issues confronting ALL airline pilots, regional and mainline, are related to poor management and vision from National. True, local MEC's are responsible for their own little world but National is still ultimately responsible for vision of where the organization is headed.

ALPA National needs to CEASE RIGHT NOW being politically motivated and return to being an Association of "unity" for ALL airline pilots. The airline industry is no longer about mainline pilots. It's about ALL of us. Senior National leadership needs to change and have more progressive and "UNITY-THINKING" pilots in charge. I can't help but think Duane and his entourage are just as guilty about self-interest as today's Airline CEO's.

I hope ALPA can change so the current situations improve. However, if ALPA continues with the status-quo, it will eventually fail.

HMM

 

[jobear]

HMM nicely said.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,

I know the hard work, commitment, and sacrifice you showed during the recent negotiations at XJT. But I have to call "BS" on your comment. THE MOST effective leaders are those that lead by example. Right now, I'd question how effective ALPA National leadership is performing, at least from a regional pilots perspective.

If ALPA is going to succeed, then National is going to have to give up their "lets only protect the senior mainline guys" attitude. A good part of the issues confronting ALL airline pilots, regional and mainline, are related to poor management and vision from National. True, local MEC's are responsible for their own little world but National is still ultimately responsible for vision of where the organization is headed.

ALPA National needs to CEASE RIGHT NOW being politically motivated and return to being an Association of "unity" for ALL airline pilots. The airline industry is no longer about mainline pilots. It's about ALL of us. Senior National leadership needs to change and have more progressive and "UNITY-THINKING" pilots in charge. I can't help but think Duane and his entourage are just as guilty about self-interest as today's Airline CEO's.

I hope ALPA can change so the current situations improve. However, if ALPA continues with the status-quo, it will eventually fail.

HMM

Thank you for the kind words about our recent contract. I guess as a result of my involvement, I speak with a different perspective and viewpoint on these types of issues. You bring up some valid points but I still disagree. Pilots are the ones who ratify their own contracts. MEC's are the ones who bring those contracts to the pilot groups to vote on. National deals with issues on a National level. Things like security, pensions, bankruptcy issues, etc. How is National supposed to prevent events like Freedumb? They can't. Management will do it and National will have to react accordingly...as will the respective MEC. Some people really do have unrealistic expectations as to what National can/should accomplish. Is National some form of knight in shining armor on a white horse? Will National make some "deus ex machina" performance and save the day? No. Because it can't...and shouldn't...be expected to do that.

I think people like to cast stones at National at this point in time because they want someone to blame and National is an easy target. Frankly? I think the blame lies with the mainline MEC's years ago when they didn't draw the line on "all jet flying shall be performed by mainline" but that is neither here nor there at this point in time given the fact that the toothpaste is out of the bottle. We now exist in a world where contract carriers bid on each other's business and it sucks - for everyone (except JO).

With that said, is National perfect? Of course not. Are they politicians? Yes. That is their job. To be the airline pilot's voice on Capitol Hill. De facto, that makes them politicians. Can they do things better? You bet. We can all look in the mirror and acknowledge that there are things we can do better...whether it is flying our airplane better or running our MEC better or better informing the public about the RJ pilot's plight.

It is easy for some on here (not necessarily saying you, just generally speaking) to cast stones from the crowd and lay blame on National but who has the guts to step up and help solve the problem? I guess I don't see National being a Major Airline Pilot's Union the way some of you guys do today. Were they that way 25 years ago? Probably. The industry was different then too.

Let me ask you this I guess....what exactly should/can National do to fix the woes of the industry? How would you do it if you were in their shoes? What are the problems of the regional jet pilot at the moment? How can National fix those problems? I have my own views on what the problems are and how to fix them but I'd like to hear some others as well.

-Neal

 

[General Lee]

Neal,


The RJDC doesn't want to see the success of the Expressjet contract. In fact, they would say it wasn't a success since you weren't given the right to fly 737s. ALPA should have fought for you to fly all of the older CAL 737-500s----according to the RJDC guys..... If they want to fly bigger, or you want to fly bigger, then they and you should apply to CAL, and then your benefits and salary would eventually go up. I think your interpretation of your contract is correct. Congrats on the new contract.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Neal,


The RJDC doesn't want to see the success of the Expressjet contract. In fact, they would say it wasn't a success since you weren't given the right to fly 737s. ALPA should have fought for you to fly all of the older CAL 737-500s----according to the RJDC guys..... If they want to fly bigger, or you want to fly bigger, then they and you should apply to CAL, and then your benefits and salary would eventually go up. I think your interpretation of your contract is correct. Congrats on the new contract.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Thanks General. Sadly, the bolded part is what is truly the tragedy. In the utopian world, we would have one seniority list with CAL or at the minimum, a direct flow over there, but that boat was missed years ago sadly.

-Neal

 

[dispatchguy]

You know, it's funny and sad at the same time to watch pilots fight each other...

I think I'm going to go nuke a bag of popcorn and watch the show

 

[jetexas]

"HO Jets"

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Neal,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I don't even claim to have the knowledge, wisdom, or experience to provide meaningful solutions - I have ideas but don't know their feasibility. You're right - local MEC's are "ALPA" for all line pilots and change only begins are the local level.

I do disagree that ALPA National should be political. Yes, they are there to represent airline pilots in our Legislative branch but it's my feeling that National has drifted too far, politically. Unfortunately, I feel that has come at the expense of building unity among the pilot groups.

Time will tell about our futures - we only hope for the best.

HMM

 

[767200]

There is a very very very simple solution to the TSA vs GoJets debate....

TSA.... STOP FLYING FOR AA!!!

Then there will be no need for GOJETS.


SO EVERYONE JUST SHUT UP AND BE DONE WITH THIS...

You CAN'T always have your CAKE and EAT it TOO!

I understand your frustration. We do not make the decision of who we fly for. BTW, YOU don't seem very bothered about Regions Air flying those J31s for AA....why? just because they are not Eagle planes or because they are "just J31s"

 

[TSA Pilot]

Now you sit here on this board and bitch that no one should go to GoJets, because they didn't have the balls to walk a picket line to get a NO ALTER EGO CLAUSE in their contract.

WE DO HAVE AN "ALTER EGO CLAUSE" IN OUR CONTRACT!!!

It states that "the company shall not create an alter-ego carrier to get around the terms of our contract" well the company is saying "we didnt create it to get around YOUR contract we did it to get around APA's contract so yours dont count. BS!! A grievance has been filed. ONE LIST!!

 

[Bankangle]

This has to be the most entertaining thread I've seen. Also sad at some of the immaturity. After seeing some of these post I doubt regional pilots will ever be able to work together to make RJ flying a better career for all it is in everyones best interest. If this thread is getting the exposure I think it is, I would recommend that some of you TSA guys not let your frustration/anger jeopardize the professional image of all RJ pilots.

 

[millhouse21]

Let me ask you this I guess....what exactly should/can National do to fix the woes of the industry? How would you do it if you were in their shoes? What are the problems of the regional jet pilot at the moment? How can National fix those problems? I have my own views on what the problems are and how to fix them but I'd like to hear some others as well.

-Neal

Well, I'm no expert but I do have an idea here. I noticed that my copmany's contract was signed by, among others, Duane Woerth. Apparently he must also approve these contracts. Has he ever declined to sign one because he thought it would be harmful to ALPA pilots as a whole? It seems to me that should be one of his primary functions; to see the big picture. Each individual MEC negotiates on it's own, but national must approve the results. I think there should be some guidelines put out by national and any contract not meeting them doesn't get signed.

Does national actually have to sign to make it legal? If so, would this work? What would the ramifications be? What happens if it ends up deadlocked because the company will not agree to the national standards? I don't know the answer to any of these questions which is why I'm asking. You asked for views so please don't flame too much.

 

[Bankangle]

I promised myself that this will be my last post on this issue.. If some of you think that any of you RJ guys have any kind of good union contract etc. etc. You are very mistaken. I have noticed that most if not all Regionals even XJT pay their copilots aprox $20/hr to start and after a couple of years they were still in the $30/hr range. I can only guess that health benefits for a guy with a family is aprox $400-500/mo. Plus dont forget the union dues. If you remind me of "oh how the senior guys make 100k+" it just shows the example of the " I got mine" or "its all about me" attitude. Please I am not bashing or trying to create a flame here. I think if ALPA and its members really gave a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, this situation would'nt be happening. I paid my dues along time ago and it really saddens me that not much has'nt changed..except that RJs are taking over the majority of the industry and its hard to scratch out a living flying them.