GJ Hiring Captains and fo's

[cocknbull]

A350

I have agreed with some not all of what you said. However TSA would never have let us FLOOD *************************s with pilots. We had to reinterview if we wanted the job. One of the biggest reasons there is two seperate lists is because TSA wanted to protect training costs.

On the issue of scope I believe scope is the only thing protecting us from being stuck at places like TSA. It protects mainline jobs and our future. The issue of scope and whipsaw applies only to APA and DAL scope, which won't allow American Connection or DAL carriers to fly large airplanes regardless of brand.

 

[uncle]

Cocknbull,
You're right about that post of mine a couple months ago. It was inappropriate. I'm concerned about posting a PM for public viewing.

 

[cocknbull]

Uncle,

I see, yes I did hesitate to share the PM in public, but I felt it might give other posters some insight into the mentality of the thread starter. I did not ask for him to PM me and I believe that other people on this board have a right to know what this person truly believes.

This is an emotional issue for everyone at TSA. We have been operating with a sub standard contract for years now and have continued to do our jobs as professionals(with few exceptions). We felt that we had an oportunity to bring not only more opportunity, but a better life to this pilot group through our hard work. Unfortunately ************************* is a major obsticle that according to ALPA is an ilegal alter-ego airline. As a result *************************s pilots are seen as management tools to us. They are being used like a tool by management to lower costs at TSA and ruin our bargining power. They do not realize that they are at TSA and TSA will use them and abuse them until they can't take it anymore. Only than will the realize the depth and the magnitude of what they have done. It is almost laughable to me that someone would subject their good name to such hatred and disrespect for less many than any other carrier out there. We feel that their disregard and disrespect for the TSA pilots and our CBA is a personal attack at each of us.

 

[DoinTime]

First, lets look at these alter-ego carriers. If the pilots facing these new certificates would just go to them.....like Mesa/Freedom. Pilots at Mesa were offered the jobs at Freedom....several times. ALPA in their wisdom decided to boycott the effort, even though it meant new equipment, upgrades, and higher pay....and did so at their own peril. They put a rift in their own group, and everyone knows that once that happens that management has won. They should have all gone to Freedom, in seniority order, and basically shut the place down. How? With the throttles in one hand and the logbook in the other. Boycotting the place and labeling the pilots who went there as scabs, scumbags, whatever, just galvanized the group and much to managements delight, caused continued fractures in the ALPA group. After the integration, ALPA claimed victory, even though they signed a sub par contract compared to the Comair contract which took a strike to gain. And now that Freedom is "part" of ALPA, as far as they are concerned all is forgiven as long as you pay your dues and tow their line.

Obviously you don't believe in the mantra that anchors this great nation of ours...."Together we stand, divided we fall"

The scope that is in mainline CBA is the only thing that will save a regional pilot from suffering the same fate as the mainline pilots. Scope has caused the need for multiple op certificates. You are right on there. But without scope, where does it end? That is a double edged sword.

There is good scope and bad scope. Good scope is Northwest pilots restricting all jet flying above 58 seats from being outsourced. Bad scope is Northwest pilots restricting certificates that operate for them from operating for someone else. Bad scope causes regional carriers to form new certificates. The costs associated with the redundant overhead expenses are always taken out of the employees pockets. These reductions are made possible through reduced barganing power.

A blanket statement like "scope is good" only shows ignorance to the concept of cause and effect.

 

[FADEC]

PCL 128, you just have a bug up your ass because the guys at JetBlue ripped you apart on another thread. Name the SCABS and freedom scumbags that have been hired at JetBlue. I really don't believe that you SIR have any credibility. You're the big union guy that condones the use off the jumpseat for political reasons.

 

[A350]

Brand scope would have protected everyone, in seniority order. However that horse has left the barn.

Whatever your take on the G0Jets thing, the way the industry is set up, there will be continual undercutting until there is a deterrent to do so. When you all figure out what that solution is, let me know. Until then, stop whining about how you all are working with a substandard contract. Surely after the carnage that occurred after 9/11, and what happened to the mainline guys, you didn't think that you would be able to beat the Comair rates, did you?

Secondly, the mainline management has, and continues to use the regional pilots to undermine the CBA's of every mainline pilot out there. Do they call you names and deny jumpseats to you? What is the difference?

Lastly, now that airline economics don't support the 50 seaters, what is next?

A350

 

[AAflyer]

I am not making a threat to anyone, go ahead and work there if you want, just good luck moving on to anywhere else after that, and I hope you don't have to commute to work as well, becuase it might be tough getting there.

And if NWA breaks the mainline scope clause and circumvents their CBA in BK and you HAVE to fly a 70-90 seat jet does that make YOU any different.

AA


A350, I didn't read your post before I posted, but you hit the nail on the head. In fact CHQ had been violating AA's scope clause the past year.

 

[cocknbull]

Secondly, the mainline management has, and continues to use the regional pilots to undermine the CBA's of every mainline pilot out there. Do they call you names and deny jumpseats to you? What is the difference?

Dead wrong, we are talking about violating a CB and a seniority list not "undermine" as you stated. Mainline v. Regional is apples and oranges compare to Regional v. Regional. Remember ALPA let the cat out of the bag in 92 when some ALPA mainline groups detemined mainline was to good for RJs. This means a company has a need for a service that its pilots are not willing to do, as a result the flying is farmed out. Remember what ALPA lets one management group get away with it is eventually forced to let all. Here we have a group of pilots willing to do the flying, but not being allowed in violation of their CB. I'm sorry if you fail to see the difference, but it is plain as day what ALPA's stance is on the subject.

 

[theo]

I guess that makes MOST of us in the industry misguided because we realize and don't like the fact that you are screwing up the industry for EVERYONE. You are pouring gasoline that on the fire that is fueling to the race to the bottom. It is of little consolation to the rest of us that you Ho Jets pilots will actually hit the bottom first, since you are taking the rest of us down with you.

<--- From an XJT pilot that supports my ALPA brothers at TSA.[/
quote]

I don't think MOST pilots share your belief. I don't think MOST pilots even know what your talking about. I think you are part of the misguided zealots I refer to. Go Jet remains just another Regional Airline. Pay and working conditions are a reflection of the times and the bankruptcies that are occuring in the industry. When the economy and the industry start making money, then times will improve for the pilots. The race isnt to the bottom, the race is to stabilize and then improve. The industry will and eventually so will everyone who works in the industry.

 

[relief tube]

Dont Be A Scab!

 

[cocknbull]

Theo the only person that is misguided is you.

The reality of the situation is that ALPA and the TSA pilots do not believe *************************s is just another regional.

The reality is ************************* pilots still work for HK and TSA. Your quality of life will never get better because of who you work for. When are you going to realize that TSA is near the bottum of the list of good places to work, and you and all the other ************************* pilots are being used as tools to make our life worse not better. Let us review the "reflection of the times" at TSA, shall we. According to TSA's DOT filling last year we cleared about 27 million and according to a leading STL newspaper *************************s will make money in the first year. Mcdonalds franchises don't even turn a profit for 2 to 3 years. Think about it.

For you to ass u me that *************************s is just another regional and that your quality of life will improve, is both sophmoric and niave.

 

[DoinTime]

In fact CHQ had been violating AA's scope clause the past year.

...and it would have been nice if AA pilots would have stood firm on this issue instead of taking "bribe" money for continued violation. This very issue is proof that everything at mainline is for sale when it comes down to it.

 

[fuelflow]

And sadly, the "1200 TT regional jet F/O" knows what he's talking about a lot more than you do. The people that do the hiring at most companies aren't the typical clueless, crusty, silver-haired, line Captains. They are extremely well-informed and most of them certainly do check SCAB lists before hiring someone. There's a reason that the only SCABs at the majors are ones that slipped through the cracks from mergers that the pilot hiring boards couldn't stop. The only exception is JetBlue, which has taken a few SCABs and a couple of Freedumb scumbags. Other than JetBlue and a few supplemental cargo companies, these HoJet scumbags are pretty much stuck at HoJets because of their backstabbing actions. Enjoy flying those 70-seaters for 50-seat rates for the rest of your careers, scumbags.

PCL -

There is not a single scab at G0Jet. I can't say the same for TSA or Pinnacle. Our pilots have been hired at several "legacy" carriers and cargo companies. Come to think of it, I don't think we have any Gulfstream Acadamy PFT guys like you working for us. I'll interview along with you anywhere and we'll see who gets hired.

 

[A350]

cocknbull:

I disagree that it is apples to oranges. Is it OK for a regional pilot to take flying from the mainline partner but not for one regional to take flying from another? Is that how you justify how this industry has shaken out? Like it or not, many other UNION brothers and sisters are out of work because of the regionals.....management just did it with ALPA's consent. Now that ALPA has decided it's time to hold the line, they want you to get upset, call people names, deny jumpseats ....etc.

TSA may have made 27 million last year, but it was sucking at the teat of the mainline partner, not on its own.

Lastly, I hope you and the other regional pilots don't get too po'ed when the mainline carriers start going for the 70-90 seat airplanes. Post BK, many of these carriers will go for the EMB-170 and 190 airplanes and their MEC's will demand the flying goes to them....when that happens, the future at many regionals will be measured with an egg timer. The 50 seater is a dead horse.

Will you call the NWA/USAirways/UAL etc. guys SCABS when they secure the rest of the 70-90 seaters for themselves and you are stuck with what you have? I hope not.

Finally, remember one fact of airline pilot life. ALPA only wants one thing from you...to do what THEY want you to do and pay dues. If you ask questions, rock the boat, don't agree, you are labeled a malcontent, scumbag, scab or worse. It doesn't matter that you lay your career at the feet of those who come after you for the better good. You will just end up out of work while others whose timing was better or who walked their own way pass you by.

I am reminded of a situation not long ago.....a company had an ALPA hiring ban in place. This particular airline was hiring. When questioned, ALPA said yes there is a hiring ban. When asked what were the ramifications of being hired there, ALPA said there would be none. When asked if the ban was honored, even in the face of being hired, what would ALPA do to help secure other employment, the answer was "nothing".

Read elsewhere where JetBlue is having a special seminar for displaced IDE pilots....That same place that PCL-128 says hires scabs.


A350

 

[cocknbull]

A350

Again I agree with you on many levels, however I respectfully disagree with one point.

I disagree that it is apples to oranges. Is it OK for a regional pilot to take flying from the mainline partner but not for one regional to take flying from another? Is that how you justify how this industry has shaken out? Like it or not, many other UNION brothers and sisters are out of work because of the regionals.....management just did it with ALPA's consent. Now that ALPA has decided it's time to hold the line, they want you to get upset, call people names, deny jumpseats ....etc.

Yes it is no secret mainline management has called on their regional partners to fly routes once flown by mainline. I too am troubled by this, and I wish it wasn't the case. However the only situation that fully mirrors the ************************* problem is NW with NEWCO. This is an alter ego with a seperate labor group. Most regionals are not alter egos created to circumnavigate CBA and seniority lists. They were infact created to fill a void in the market.

I think you and I both agree that mainline must keep the larger "RJs". The fact is until labor cost at the regionals gets high enough to force mainline management to give the flying back to mainline pilots, low cost contract carriers will always exsist at the expense of all of us. At TSA we were and still are poised to better our contract to help force this very issue. We saw Comair get a good contract the was begining to force this issue only to be low balled by Mesa and others. Mesa and these other airlines were unable to raise the bar and force flying back to mainline because of alter egos like Freedom and Republic. Now Mesa operates 90 seaters for US and AW because of Freedom. I would much rather be flying the EMB for mainline, but unfortunately that was not the industry I inherited. Hopefully it is the industry we can pass down to our sons.

 

[Shrek]

Great point........70 and up should go to mainline.

 

[Shrek]

Fuel Flow....who on the TSA seniority list here is a SCAB?!!!.......I have checked....NADA Good Try though

 

[fuelflow]

Shrek -

Look harder. I know of at least one, though I won't mention names here. Ex-Eastern, I'm very sure he's still there. I bet your ALPA friends can identify the rest.

Any aircraft with jet propulsion should be flown by mainline, or at least by mainline pilots. You can see the resulting Pandora's Box when we strayed from that over 12 years ago.

 

[210FR8DOG]

Any aircraft with jet propulsion should be flown by mainline, or at least by mainline pilots. You can see the resulting Pandora's Box when we strayed from that over 12 years ago.

The first time you've said anything that makes sense on this board. I'm impressed. Yet you still added your fuel to the fire by going to the dark side. I'm confused.

 

[A350]

cocknbull:

We agree on more than you realize....however.......

Mesa has 90 seaters because Mesa wanted them. Not because of Freedom. JO ordered the aircraft for AWA. He wasn't scoped out of them at AWA. He was everywhere else.

The Mesa MEC would love for you to believe that Freedom is the cause of their ills. That isn't the case. Freedom existed solely for the purpose of allowing MAG the opportunity to place larger RJ's with AWA, without risking their other code share flying. Of course, after JO started Freedom, he used it very effectively. He scared the crap out of the pilots there. The MEC utilized all kinds of tactics to stop it when they should have encouraged it. They were offered the jobs, in seniority order, with seniority. They chose not to. They (JO) had no intention of bringing more flying to the Freedom certificate because he knew when push came to shove he would lose the single carrier petition. Make no mistake, Mesa had no intention of forcing any flying back to mainline. They were, and still are, bent on getting whatever they can. And you know what? That is their job.

Mesa, the whole time, was working on getting the 70 and 90 seater on their certificate, but only after the first BK wiped out most of the USAirways pilots scope protections. This was also a condition of the Mesa pilots participating in the Jets for Jobs protocols which allowed furloughed U pilots to "flow down" to Mesa. If you ask me, it was a win-win for the Mesa guys, although, they flinched first and signed a lousy contract. Truth be told, the Mesa MEC probably figured they sign the crappy contract, get tons of new flying, and blame the Freedom thing for the whole mess. Nonetheless, blaming the Mesa pilots is not the thing to do. If Woerth was serious about stopping this crap, maybe he shouldn't have let them sign the contract.

Politics and strategy...two things ALPA is full of.

Republic is a whole 'nother story.....the U pilots lost out on that deal as well. U management took the pilot pension, took the savings/cash left over and bought a ton of new RJ's, CRJ's and EMB-170's and then gave them away to other carriers. I hope the PSA and Republic pilots like flying my pension.

A350