GIV vs. Falcon 900B

[Groundpounder]

I have had dick for a few classes

Huh?

 

[HMR]

I have great news for you .... NO MORE ILG ... GAWD did I hate that place!

Oh very funny, G100. Didn't you hear FSI is moving the FA50 sim from TEB to ILG?:bawling:

As for Dick Washer... The guy is a great instructor, but why not go by Richard, Rick, Ricardo, Inglebert... ANYTHING but Dick?

 

[G100driver]

Oh very funny, G100. Didn't you hear FSI is moving the FA50 sim from TEB to ILG?:bawling:

As for Dick Washer... The guy is a great instructor, but why not go by Richard, Rick, Ricardo, Inglebert... ANYTHING but Dick?

Yea, I would go by my middle name! I really think he says it for affect or is just plain ignorant to modern slang.

I thought that they had a 50 sim in Dallas. Sure beats the balmy Delaware winters,

 

[ELVISP]

BBQ in SAV is pretty damn good! Try Sweet Leaf BBQ on Abercorn St.

It is a tough call which is better. I have flown GIV SP, the 900B and the 900EX. First off though, take the 900B out of the loop. If your boss is willing to spend the $$$ on a GIV make the decision between the EX and GIV.
The 900B is OLD technology(would love to have a fuel totalizer). The Falcon burns less fuel, flys slower app speeds and has 3 engines...oh, and hand flies better. The GIV is built like a brick, climbs to the 40's with a buttload of gas and the manuals are written in English by people who speak the English! But...WTF with having to turn on the stby hydro pump when setting the emer brake? i mean, i can understand having to do that in the GII but the GIV? come on. Oh yea....and you can drop a wing in the GIV in a crosswind where you would bang a wing in the Falcon. So...my personal fave is probably....hmm...toss up.
Good luck, both are top of the food chain. It really comes down to money and time off

 

[GVFlyer]

First off though, take the 900B out of the loop. If your boss is willing to spend the $$$ on a GIV make the decision between the EX and GIV.
The 900B is OLD technology...

The G-IV is old technology, too.

The Gulfstream IV was introduced in 1985 and the Gulfstream IV-SP was introduced in 1993. It was the world’s best-selling, large-cabin business jet aircraft. It and it's derivatives enjoy an impressive record for technical performance, comfort, safety and reliability. There are 535 GIV/GIV-SP/G300/G400 aircraft in worldwide service. To date, the GIV/GIV-SP fleet has accumulated more than two million hours of flight time and boasts an impressive dispatch reliability rate of over 99.8 percent. The GIV and GIV-SP hold over 70 world and national records. On December 3, 2002, Gulfstream rolled out its 500th GIV aircraft officially ending the GIV-series.


A better comparison would be between the Falcon 900EX and a Gulfstream currently in production such as the G450.

Gulfstream G450 / Dassault Falcon 900EX

Cabin lenght: 40'4" / 33'2"

Height: 6'2" / 6'2"

Width: 7'4" / 7'8"

Cabin volume: 1,525 cu. ft. / 1,267 cu. ft.

Max Takeoff wt: 73,900 lb. / 49,000 lb.

Max Landing wt: 66,000 lb. / 44,000 lb.

Maximum Payload: 6,000 lb. / 4,615 lb

Engines: 2 RollsRoyce Tay Mark 611-8C / 3 Honeywell TFE 731-60 Carbon Seal Specials

Thrust (ea.): 13,850 lbs. / 5,000 lbs.

TBO: 12,000 hours / 6,000 hours

Normal Cruise: M 0.80 / M 0.80

Long Range Cruise: M 0.77 / M 0.77

Max Cruise: M 0.88 / M 0.84/M 0.87

Range @ Normal Cruise (8 pax): 4,350 nm. / 4,125 nm

Range @ LRC (8 pax): 4,450 nm. / 4,263 nm.

Takeoff Dist. (SL, MGTOW, ISA): 5,450 ft. / 5,370 ft.

Landing Dist. (SL, MLW, ISA): 3,260 / 3,670 ft.

Initial Altitude: FL410 / FL390

Direct Cost per Hour: $2,303 / $2,056

Price (millions): $34.17 / $36.15


GV

 

[G100driver]

Very infomative. Even with editoral comments

How about pre-owned 900EX (non-EASy) vs G-IV? The prices you quoted a little high.

 

[ELVISP]

Wow...thanks for the sale info on the G450. But I wasn't talking about the Easy cockpit vs. Planeview cockpit, not to mention that now your talking about new equipment.

If you look in the cockpit of the 900ex and the GIV SP they both operate the same Honeywell FMS. The displays are similar, the control heads are similar etc. My point was that when you sit in a 900B you are back to mostly steam gauges.

I too think of the 2 new airplanes in the previous senario the G450 would be the better decision.

 

[GVFlyer]

Very infomative. Even with editoral comments

How about pre-owned 900EX (non-EASy) vs G-IV? The prices you quoted a little high.

The prices I listed are current new aircraft prices from Gulfstream and Dassault.

The pre-owned market is "dynamic" and I don't have current used Falcon 900EX prices.

Pre-owned G-IV's are selling in the range $15-$18.5 million, while G-IV SP's are going for $21.5-$28 million.


GV

 

[con-pilot]

Falcon 900EXs are rarely on the used market. When one comes up it is nearly always sold immediately.

Okay, after researching on "Jet Net" here are the actual figures as of the end of last month.

Currently there are 2 Falcon 900EXs on the market. (One under contract.)

Currently there are 23 G-IVSPs on the market.

Adjusting for date of model introduction leaves 16 G-IVSPs on the market vs the 2 Falcon 900EXs.

That's got to tell you something.

 

[GVFlyer]

It does. It tells me that a lot of Gulfstream owners are moving up to current production Gulfstream aircraft. There is little incentive for a Falcon 900EX operator to upgrade. Since it's introduction the only significant change to the 900EX has been the EASy cockpit.

On the other hand, the G450, which is the product improvement derivative of the GIV-SP, includes the following enhancements.

The 13,850-pound-thrust Tay 611-8C turbofans, though rated at the same takeoff thrust as the G400’s Tay 611-8s, provide 6 percent more thrust at 5,000 feet (ISA +15 degrees C) and 2 percent better fuel burn, giving the airplane 250-nm more range than the G400, for 4,350 nm at Mach 0.80. On a 3,000 nautical mile mission, the G450 will burn 1,300 pounds less fuel than the G400. The -8C also incorporates FADEC, a larger-diameter fan, modified high-pressure turbine and new bypass/core mixer. Maintenance intervals have been extended to 6,000 hours for midlife and 12,000 hours for full overhaul.

The GIV’s dispatch reliability rating is 99.8 percent, but Gulfstream still looked at addressing and upgrading those systems that historically required the most service attention. The company took the top 10 high-removal items on the GIV and were able to improve nine of them on the G450.

The more capable and reliable electrical power system of the G550 replaced the G400’s electrics. Two 40-kVA integrated drive generators and a 40-kVA APU generator provide improvements in electrical power capacity, no-break power transfer capability and added redundancy. A new Honeywell 36-150 APU provides improved reliability for engine starting, better performance for cabin temperature control and better high-altitude electrical power capacity. It also runs quieter than the G400’s APU.

Cabin comfort is enhanced by a dual-pack environmental control system based on the G550 air-cycle machines and a three-zone (cockpit plus two cabin zones) digital temperature control. A G550-style passive door seal and dual digital pressurization system give added redundancy and safety. Maximum cabin altitude has been reduced from 6,500 feet to 6,000 feet.

Other systems that the G450 shares with the G550 include the nose landing gear, nosewheel steering, oxygen system and fire-extinguishing system. The G450’s wing and tail are the same as those on the GIV/GIV-SP/G400.

As you can see, there is adequate incentive for operators to upgrade from the GIV-SP to the G450. Conversely, if you buy a new Falcon 900EX all you get is the big screens and a higher serial number.

As you know if you have access to JetNet, the Falcon 900EX has not been competitive with even GIV-SP sales much less the combined sales of the GIV-SP/G400/G450 fleet.

Since it's intoduction in 1996, the Falcon 900EX has sold 159 units. GIV-SP sales alone from it's introduction in 1993 to the end of it's production run in 2002 totaled 286 jets.

To meet demand for it's large cabin jets Gulfstream has launched a $300 million, 7 year expansion, hiring 1,000 new employees. Gulfstream will build 72 large cabin aircraft this year, 84 next year, ramping up to a projected total of over one hundred large cabin aircraft per annum in the out years.

GV

 

[G100driver]

GV- I will definatly give the brass ring to Gulfstream for production. Dassault has never been able to mass producing their airplanes.

However, this does keep the values up on current Dassault aircraft. We can easily sell our 2004 2000EX today for the price we paid ... the only problem would be the replacement aircraft would not be ready for 3+ years!

 

[AirBadger]

I bet GVFlyer makes all the girls weak in the knees

 

[GVFlyer]

GV- I will definatly give the brass ring to Gulfstream for production. Dassault has never been able to mass producing their airplanes.

However, this does keep the values up on current Dassault aircraft. We can easily sell our 2004 2000EX today for the price we paid ... the only problem would be the replacement aircraft would not be ready for 3+ years!

You're right. This is from a June 2006 study on Falcon 900 Retained Value accomplished by Aviation Management Systems, Inc. at the behest of Dassault Falcon Jet.

Historically, there have been fewer aircraft transactions within the Falcon 900 fleet than with either the Challenger or Gulfstream fleets. While this can be attributed to the fact that the Falcon 900 fleet is smaller, it is also a reflection of a more stable fleet. This stability is also reflected in the percentage of fleet for sale with 3.1% of the Falcon 900 fleet current for sale versus 10.7% of the Challenger 601/604 fleet and 6.6% of the Gulfstream fleet.

The study further shows that the when adjusted to 0% inflation the Falcon 900 loses only a fraction over 10% value over 10 years. When adjusted for 3% inflation, the Falcon gains just over 19% in value over the same period.

While I don't have the data for Gulfstream retained value at hand, it is similar.

GV

 

[GVFlyer]

I bet GVFlyer makes all the girls weak in the knees

You bet! I'm six foot and one hundred and eighty-five pounds of rompin' stompin' airborne muscle! It's scary the way the chicks get their freak on.


GV








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[Lead Sled]

One hundred and eighty-five pounds of rompin' stompin' airborne muscle! It's scary the way the chicks get their freak on.

Would that be you or the "chicks"?