GIV vs. Falcon 900B

[falconpilot]

I never lost an engine on a Falcon. Every time I landed I would go out and count them and they were all still there.


However, "If it ain't a Boeing, I ain't going!"

I rest my case, so there.:beer:

Thats funny

 

[con-pilot]

What do you do then when your in BFE and that happens...?

BFE me butt, how about TEB? Unless things have changed, there is no airstart cart at TEB.

Then again, does not the Falcon 2000 use apu air for starting? And I do believe the 7X (I hate that name) will as well?

I have been in a true BFE situation in the 727 and had the apu fail, it wasn't fun. We ended up having the Air Force fly one in on a C-130. (Well, Air National Guard actually.)

An aircart, sorry, not a replacement apu.

 

[Brett Hull]

BFE me butt, how about TEB? Unless things have changed, there is no airstart cart at TEB.

First Aviation has a huffer cart, so you're safe in TEB now.

 

[GVFlyer]

3 engines vs 2?

The reliability of the R/R Tay vs the Garrett grenade (especially out of ASE) is something most folks forget when they make the comparison. What's the TBO on the old Grenade's? The last time I checked the Tay was 4000 hr hot sections and 8000 hour overhauls.

It's hard, really hard to find a guy who has ever lost an engine on a Gulfstream. When it comes to a Falcon, we all know a guy who has lost an engine on a Falcon.

I rest my case.

TBO on the GIV's RollsRoyce Tay 611-8 is 12,000 hours.

Dassault has strong-armed Honeywell - Garrett into no longer releasing data concerning engine failures in Falcons. The last time that information was available, you were statistically more likely to arrive single-engine in the three-holer Falcon than in the twin-engined Gulfstream.

Besides, if three-engined airplanes were a good idea someone in addition to Dassault would make one.

GV

 

[Lead Sled]

3 engines vs 2?

My boss asked the question about the 900 and 3 engines once.

I asked him, "would you rather have 2 Rolls Royce's in you garage or 3 Chevy's"? He looked at me a little perplexed and answered, "2 Rolls Royces of course".

I answered, "then why would you fly around with 3 Chevy's on the back of you aircraft"?

He smiled.

The reliability of the R/R Tay vs the Garrett grenade (especially out of ASE) is something most folks forget when they make the comparison. What's the TBO on the old Grenade's? The last time I checked the Tay was 4000 hr hot sections and 8000 hour overhauls.

It's hard, really hard to find a guy who has ever lost an engine on a Gulfstream. When it comes to a Falcon, we all know a guy who has lost an engine on a Falcon.

I rest my case.

Show me the "Two Engine Out Drift Down Charts" for the Gulfstream. I rest my case.

 

[ultrarunner]

There is a reason that Dassault is phasing out Garrett engines. I would think the next versions of the 50/900 will have Pratts on them.

Who else has nighmares about those damm carbon seals!

 

[con-pilot]

I would think the next versions of the 50/900 will have Pratts on them.

There will be no next version of the Falcon 50, the Falcon 50 is now out of production. The last two are currently in the final stages of completion, I believe.

In over 17,000 + hours of flying jet powered aircraft I never had a jet engine fail. I have had to shut down 3 engines to prevent further damage.

1. CJ-610, Jet Commander, loss of oil pressure on rotation. Oil line ruptured.

2. JT8D, Boeing 727, CSD failure, CSD failed to disconnect, shut engine down due high oil temp, during climb out.

3. TFE-731, Sabre 65, loss of oil pressure on takeoff, aborted takeoff. Plantary tower shaft failed.

All three engines remained running until I shut them down.

As over a third of my flying time has been in 731 powered aircraft, Westwinds I & II, Sabre 65, Falcon 50/900 I must be pretty lucky.

(On the CJ-610 and the TFE-731 all the oil came out, you talk about a mess. Not as bad as when I blew an oil cooler on a DC-3, but that's another story.)

 

[ultrarunner]

You are lucky. I have had at least 3 chip-lights and one inflight shutdown on a single airplane with the 731. Other crews had the same issue on the same plane.

You are lucky. As GV said, there is a reason that you cannot get inflight shut-down rates from Garrett-Honeywell.

And no one here will argue there is still not a problem with those damm planetary gearboxes AND those bloody carbo seals.

No thank you.

 

[con-pilot]

Well maybe I am lucky, but the funny thing is I have a lot of friends around my age and my experience level who have lot more time in 731 powered aircraft that have never lost or shutdown an engine. So I guess they are even luckier.

Oh, on my list of 731 powered aircraft I forgot the 731 JetStar. Now on that airplane the only thing we didn't have problems with were the engines. Don't even get me started.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not singing the praises of the 731 engine. If I had a preference on engines it would be for Pratts. Starting with the R-985.

I just look at the performance figures, purchase price, cost of operation, safety records of the aircraft involved and let the person spending the money decided. (Boy that sounds simple doesn't it, well it sure isn't.) Then I fly what they buy. Once I disagreed early in my career when a person passed on my recommendation and purchased an MU-2 over a King Air 200. I flew the MU-2 for a year until I found another job.

 

[Lead Sled]

We did a Falcon vs Gulfstream comparison prior to buying the Falcon. In reality, you're comparing two higly successful aircraft. It was sort of like comparing a couple of different luxury cars and either one could be counted upon to be able to perform our particular mission. We settled on the Falcon because of the differences in operating costs - what a Gulfstream does with brute force (read high fuel flows) the Facon does with finesse (lower fuel flows). I've flow enough hours behind 731s not to be concerned with their reliability. I've seen just as many G-IV guys with engine issues on my domestic and international trips as I've seen with 731 powered aircraft. On other words, one each. Although I doubt if it would ever be a factor, you at least have the option of a 2-engine ferry on the Falcon.

LS

 

[con-pilot]

Although I doubt if it would ever be a factor, you at least have the option of a 2-engine ferry on the Falcon.

Too true on that my friend.

 

[G4G5]

Number of guys who have had to use that chart vs the number of guys who have ever lost an engine on a G4?

The thought that the 731 is anywhere near as reliable as a R/R Tay is probably, no it is the funniest thing I have ever seen on this board (1,386 post+)

I am back to resting my case.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I dont know anyone who has had an engine failure on a Falcon.

I dont know anyone who has had an engine failure on a Gulfstream.

I dont know anyone who has had an engine failure on a Global Express.

I do agree 731's on Falcons are stupid. Incredibly underpowered and overworked...need much attention. Wont miss them. The 900EX is a slug under heavy hot or high conditions.

but - some like the lower operating costs of Falcons, especially if you fly 4000hrs a year..thats why we have ours I suppose..

Some like the Gulfstream reputation of performance and reliability.

whatever...

Id fly either. I would choose the JOB that was better - regardless of equipment. They all fly fine from one hotel to another.

Mid-Older aged Gulfstream guys are weird. I have see them leave good jobs flying Falcons, Hawkers, etc...to take $hit jobs flying a Gulfstream..they think Savannah is Mecca. Its the only airplane that is capable of taking to the sky, its the only FSI facility that "does it right", etc...really odd group.

They are easy to spot as the are always decked out in cheesy Gulfstream vendor gear - always. Nice look.

I - just - dont - get - it.

 

[G4G5]

You mean, Savannah isn't Mecca?
It's all in good fun.

I have flown a couple of different Falcon types and liked each one of them. I think they design a superior airframe and wing but their arrogance is what got the best of them. When we got our first 900 back in '89, I took a test flight with an engineer, a demo pilot and our chief pilot. I recall seeing 900+c for the engine temps (I remember our 50's being temp limited) so I asked the French engineer why they didn't add more power to the airframe. "Because we calculated the optimum amount of power required and this is all we need".

Then came the 900B, then came the 900c, then came the EX. The Tay has remained the same from G4 #1 to G4 #470+ (I know the 450 is FADEC). When departing places like ASE, I find a lot of comfort in knowing that (basicly) the same TAY is taking off all over the globle day in and day out with 75+ pax on either an F100 or a 717. That gives me the warm and fuzzy that having 4 or more 731's would never provide.

Either aircraft is a fine choice but if I am the one recommending an airframe to the boss, I will always pick the most reliable airframe. Nothing is worse then having to tell the principal he can't go because his aircraft is broken. Spare parts and product support can never be under rated. Just ask the former Dir of Ops at GE.

On that same 900 I cracked a windshield on the way into San Juan. 4 days later, I got out (part had to come out of France and clear customs). Last year I cracked a windshield on my G5, 4 hours later I had one on the way.

I never got into the whole apparel thing, I decided to get a "Gulfstream" tattoo instead.

All kidding aside, I never under stood the Gulfstream (or GEX) leather jacket crowd but what do I know. The whole college apparel thing doesn't make any sense to me either. Drop North of $100k at ERAU (or wherever) then drop more coin on the T-shirt and sweat shirt (I would rather put the money into paying off the loan.

 

[con-pilot]

I never got into the whole apparel thing, I decided to get a "Gulfstream" tattoo instead.

I love it, too funny. I do wear Boeing and Falcon stuff, mainly because it was free. (I know, bloody tightwad.)

Now, when I win the really, really, really big lottery I'm afraid I really don't know what I would end up with.


(Oh I do to, a re-engined 727-100. It least I can stand up it, I'm 6'5".)

 

[AA717driver]

Gulfstream T-shirts hold up better than Falcon T-shirts.




SHOW ME THE MONEYYYYYY!!!!!TC


P.S.--Better bars in SAV than in TEB.

 

[TXDA2000]

Maybe true on the bars, but the experience of grab-a-grannie night at Bobbisox in LIT is an experience not easily forgetten, especially if you are under 40 and not accustomed to being sexually assualted by 55 year old women.

 

[AA717driver]

Maybe true on the bars, but the experience of grab-a-grannie night at Bobbisox in LIT is an experience not easily forgetten, especially if you are under 40 and not accustomed to being sexually assualted by 55 year old women.

TC

 

[G4G5]

Maybe true on the bars, but the experience of grab-a-grannie night at Bobbisox in LIT is an experience not easily forgetten, especially if you are under 40 and not accustomed to being sexually assualted by 55 year old women.

Does that me I should call you Dad? I told mom to stay away from that place.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Maybe true on the bars, but the experience of grab-a-grannie night at Bobbisox in LIT is an experience not easily forgetten, especially if you are under 40 and not accustomed to being sexually assualted by 55 year old women.

granny or hot college chiks....dont matter...

Gulfstream guys are too busy admiring each others new vendor polo garments and talking about thier "S/N so and so" to notice chiks at a bar!

:cartman: