GIV vs. Falcon 900B

[ultrarunner]

I did a lot of research a few years ago comparing the Falcon 900EX versus the G-IVSP. We (the boss) decided to purchase the 900EX. We flew both aircraft from Aspen-Oklahoma City Wiley Post Airport-London Luton and return via the same routing except for stopping for customs at Bangor Maine.

Bottom line for choosing the 900EX was that it outperforms the G-IVSP out of Aspen where the boss lived.

You wouldn't have had to fly 'em both to determine that. A Dassault three-holer will always out-perform a twin out of ASE. The gradient rules change, and when you're asked to play the game when you loose 33 percent of your thrust vs. 50 percent of your thrust, I believe the former will win.

 

[con-pilot]

You wouldn't have had to fly 'em both to determine that. A Dassault three-holer will always out-perform a twin out of ASE. The gradient rules change, and when you're asked to play the game when you loose 33 percent of your thrust vs. 50 percent of your thrust, I believe the former will win.

Yeah, I kind of knew that with 7,000 hours in 727s.

Ya got the 2.4 vs the 2.7 climb thingy as well.:beer:

But hey, it was an excuse to fly a G-IV.

 

[G4G5]

3 engines vs 2?

My boss asked the question about the 900 and 3 engines once.

I asked him, "would you rather have 2 Rolls Royce's in you garage or 3 Chevy's"? He looked at me a little perplexed and answered, "2 Rolls Royces of course".

I answered, "then why would you fly around with 3 Chevy's on the back of you aircraft"?

He smiled.

The reliability of the R/R Tay vs the Garrett grenade (especially out of ASE) is something most folks forget when they make the comparison. What's the TBO on the old Grenade's? The last time I checked the Tay was 4000 hr hot sections and 8000 hour overhauls.

It's hard, really hard to find a guy who has ever lost an engine on a Gulfstream. When it comes to a Falcon, we all know a guy who has lost an engine on a Falcon.

I rest my case.

 

[con-pilot]

I never lost an engine on a Falcon. Every time I landed I would go out and count them and they were all still there.


However, "If it ain't a Boeing, I ain't going!"

I rest my case, so there.:beer:

 

[falconpilot]

3 engines vs 2?

My boss asked the question about the 900 and 3 engines once.

I asked him, "would you rather have 2 Rolls Royce's in you garage or 3 Chevy's"? He looked at me a little perplexed and answered, "2 Rolls Royces of course".

I answered, "then why would you fly around with 3 Chevy's on the back of you aircraft"?

He smiled.

The reliability of the R/R Tay vs the Garrett grenade (especially out of ASE) is something most folks forget when they make the comparison. What's the TBO on the old Grenade's? The last time I checked the Tay was 4000 hr hot sections and 8000 hour overhauls.

It's hard, really hard to find a guy who has ever lost an engine on a Gulfstream. When it comes to a Falcon, we all know a guy who has lost an engine on a Falcon.

I rest my case.

Well said!!!
I know a guy that got stuck in a Gulfstream cause the apu went out... What do you do then when your in BFE and that happens...?
Seriously though... I would like to fly the GIV. I think either airplane will do us great... But I think the boss is leaning more towards the 900.. Me personally I really don't care either way... Except for the fact that Ive never flown a GIV and I would like to... I think that the new Gulfstreams are the best looking airplanes on the ramp... Atleast until the 7X gets here...

 

[falconpilot]

I never lost an engine on a Falcon. Every time I landed I would go out and count them and they were all still there.


However, "If it ain't a Boeing, I ain't going!"

I rest my case, so there.:beer:

Thats funny

 

[con-pilot]

What do you do then when your in BFE and that happens...?

BFE me butt, how about TEB? Unless things have changed, there is no airstart cart at TEB.

Then again, does not the Falcon 2000 use apu air for starting? And I do believe the 7X (I hate that name) will as well?

I have been in a true BFE situation in the 727 and had the apu fail, it wasn't fun. We ended up having the Air Force fly one in on a C-130. (Well, Air National Guard actually.)

An aircart, sorry, not a replacement apu.

 

[Brett Hull]

BFE me butt, how about TEB? Unless things have changed, there is no airstart cart at TEB.

First Aviation has a huffer cart, so you're safe in TEB now.

 

[GVFlyer]

3 engines vs 2?

The reliability of the R/R Tay vs the Garrett grenade (especially out of ASE) is something most folks forget when they make the comparison. What's the TBO on the old Grenade's? The last time I checked the Tay was 4000 hr hot sections and 8000 hour overhauls.

It's hard, really hard to find a guy who has ever lost an engine on a Gulfstream. When it comes to a Falcon, we all know a guy who has lost an engine on a Falcon.

I rest my case.

TBO on the GIV's RollsRoyce Tay 611-8 is 12,000 hours.

Dassault has strong-armed Honeywell - Garrett into no longer releasing data concerning engine failures in Falcons. The last time that information was available, you were statistically more likely to arrive single-engine in the three-holer Falcon than in the twin-engined Gulfstream.

Besides, if three-engined airplanes were a good idea someone in addition to Dassault would make one.

GV

 

[Lead Sled]

3 engines vs 2?

My boss asked the question about the 900 and 3 engines once.

I asked him, "would you rather have 2 Rolls Royce's in you garage or 3 Chevy's"? He looked at me a little perplexed and answered, "2 Rolls Royces of course".

I answered, "then why would you fly around with 3 Chevy's on the back of you aircraft"?

He smiled.

The reliability of the R/R Tay vs the Garrett grenade (especially out of ASE) is something most folks forget when they make the comparison. What's the TBO on the old Grenade's? The last time I checked the Tay was 4000 hr hot sections and 8000 hour overhauls.

It's hard, really hard to find a guy who has ever lost an engine on a Gulfstream. When it comes to a Falcon, we all know a guy who has lost an engine on a Falcon.

I rest my case.

Show me the "Two Engine Out Drift Down Charts" for the Gulfstream. I rest my case.

 

[ultrarunner]

There is a reason that Dassault is phasing out Garrett engines. I would think the next versions of the 50/900 will have Pratts on them.

Who else has nighmares about those damm carbon seals!

 

[con-pilot]

I would think the next versions of the 50/900 will have Pratts on them.

There will be no next version of the Falcon 50, the Falcon 50 is now out of production. The last two are currently in the final stages of completion, I believe.

In over 17,000 + hours of flying jet powered aircraft I never had a jet engine fail. I have had to shut down 3 engines to prevent further damage.

1. CJ-610, Jet Commander, loss of oil pressure on rotation. Oil line ruptured.

2. JT8D, Boeing 727, CSD failure, CSD failed to disconnect, shut engine down due high oil temp, during climb out.

3. TFE-731, Sabre 65, loss of oil pressure on takeoff, aborted takeoff. Plantary tower shaft failed.

All three engines remained running until I shut them down.

As over a third of my flying time has been in 731 powered aircraft, Westwinds I & II, Sabre 65, Falcon 50/900 I must be pretty lucky.

(On the CJ-610 and the TFE-731 all the oil came out, you talk about a mess. Not as bad as when I blew an oil cooler on a DC-3, but that's another story.)

 

[ultrarunner]

You are lucky. I have had at least 3 chip-lights and one inflight shutdown on a single airplane with the 731. Other crews had the same issue on the same plane.

You are lucky. As GV said, there is a reason that you cannot get inflight shut-down rates from Garrett-Honeywell.

And no one here will argue there is still not a problem with those damm planetary gearboxes AND those bloody carbo seals.

No thank you.

 

[con-pilot]

Well maybe I am lucky, but the funny thing is I have a lot of friends around my age and my experience level who have lot more time in 731 powered aircraft that have never lost or shutdown an engine. So I guess they are even luckier.

Oh, on my list of 731 powered aircraft I forgot the 731 JetStar. Now on that airplane the only thing we didn't have problems with were the engines. Don't even get me started.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not singing the praises of the 731 engine. If I had a preference on engines it would be for Pratts. Starting with the R-985.

I just look at the performance figures, purchase price, cost of operation, safety records of the aircraft involved and let the person spending the money decided. (Boy that sounds simple doesn't it, well it sure isn't.) Then I fly what they buy. Once I disagreed early in my career when a person passed on my recommendation and purchased an MU-2 over a King Air 200. I flew the MU-2 for a year until I found another job.

 

[Lead Sled]

We did a Falcon vs Gulfstream comparison prior to buying the Falcon. In reality, you're comparing two higly successful aircraft. It was sort of like comparing a couple of different luxury cars and either one could be counted upon to be able to perform our particular mission. We settled on the Falcon because of the differences in operating costs - what a Gulfstream does with brute force (read high fuel flows) the Facon does with finesse (lower fuel flows). I've flow enough hours behind 731s not to be concerned with their reliability. I've seen just as many G-IV guys with engine issues on my domestic and international trips as I've seen with 731 powered aircraft. On other words, one each. Although I doubt if it would ever be a factor, you at least have the option of a 2-engine ferry on the Falcon.

LS