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Gary Kelly Ain't Waitin' for the DOJ!!

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shootr said:
It's not a downgrade if your pay and career expectations of final earnings go up (significantly). I would GLADLY take a loss of relative seniority if purchased by a UPS/FEDEX type operation if the end-game earnings worked out in a similar way. Seat is not important. Pay is important. I don't want to upgrade because it's a better seat...I want the money.
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What if you had the opportunity to keep the seat and take the money? Using your logic you would rather take the downgrade because the pay is somewhat similar? Riiiiiight!
 
Ty Webb said:
Upgrades are driven by the number of aircraft and their utilization, not attrition, which was mostly by FO's.
QUOTE]

Actually Ty, my friend at AAI said he recalls attrition rates of 10-12% in the mid-2000s. He said plenty of captains and first officers were bailing, which helped keep his upgrade at about 3 years (the airline did not double in his first three years).

He's also not very concerned about keeping his seat...he just wants away from AAI. He know that no matter what happens, his life is about to improve exponentially. And he's already sick and tired of trying to work under a new contract that can't be properly enforced!
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Max, read all my comments, not just selectively. I stated that no matter what the outcome, you guys will be fenced for a long time, which is a great deal for you guys. At the end of which, there will be many new hires (hopefully), so when the fences come down, everyone affected by this sli will make out fine. Ty, etc. will keep their seats unless they bid out. So, in summary, once again, this sli will have no effect on anyone for a number of years, unless, like I said, they bid out. You guys get fat raises, keep what you have seniority wise, so why are you on here even complaining. Take the offer while it's on the table and enjoy your new career. It's going to be good for you.
 
S3sundowner said:
You guys get fat raises, keep what you have seniority wise, so why are you on here even complaining.
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Sundowner, I don't think any of us came here to complain. Unfortunately, the comments from some pilots were very negative towards AirTran and AirTran pilots. I think it is those specific comments that most of us were objecting to; many of those comments came from pilots who were not at either carrier, btw.

I think we are all trying to move beyond the negativity that has been expressed here for the past few months. I'm going to try to do my part.

To Lonestar-

I started off in mid 2001 at around #600 and moved up about 120 numbers over the past ten years. Nearly every one of those were retirements or medical. We averaged 10-12 retirements a year until they stopped.

Regards,
TW
 
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Say what you will about Airtran, but it really is not a bad place to work! We are young, have a great time together, and the airline makes money! I believe both places are great assets, and the merged airline will NOT shrink! Growth through low volume routes(ie. Aruba one flt, once a week. SWA probably 8 flts a day) will spur growth and accelerate upgrades!
I see a lot of sharp TOOLS coming out of the tool box on both sides. At the end of the day, we are all the same. You fly people in metal from point to point. There is no reason for egos, when the arbitrator will take care of business.
I think we will all have a blast together, and be more successful doing so together! Look forward to drinking some beer with you all. take care!
 
Swapa will make you guys an offer that you might not get from an arbitrator. I'll bet the majority of aai pilots just want to get this done. As they say, a bird in the hand.....
 
S3sundowner said:
I don't think this will go to arbitration.
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I hope you are right my friend. I hope our unions can come to a fair agreement and we can move on. If a reasonable agreement is put out to a vote then arbitration won't be necessary. Reasonable is very relative my friend. Here's to a big bad ass LUV machine.
:beer:
 
Ty Webb said:
We averaged 10-12 retirements a year until they stopped.
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We did have a handful of retirements each year, which along with growth gave Ty and myself about a 3 year upgrade. Around 2004 through 2007 though there was slower growth and massive attrition. In late 2005 Ashley said we had about 12% attrition (from both seats), which accounted for nearly half that years hiring. Just goes to show what a dump this place is!
 
avi8tor007 said:
Say what you will about Airtran, but it really is not a bad place to work! We are young, have a great time together, and the airline makes money! I believe both places are great assets, and the merged airline will NOT shrink! Growth through low volume routes(ie. Aruba one flt, once a week. SWA probably 8 flts a day) will spur growth and accelerate upgrades!
I see a lot of sharp TOOLS coming out of the tool box on both sides. At the end of the day, we are all the same. You fly people in metal from point to point. There is no reason for egos, when the arbitrator will take care of business.
I think we will all have a blast together, and be more successful doing so together! Look forward to drinking some beer with you all. take care!
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Yes! A arbitrator will take care of us and all the the new SWA brothers. I wouldn't wish that at all. At the end of the yes we are people and the same, but when it comes to your company verse SWA, it is night and day.
 
GuppyWN said:
You'd better ask the bottom half of the WN list if they are cool with that.

Gup
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I will say I am not cool with it. I sit close to CJ, and what I have seen on the AAI list in relation to average age ( 1500-1700 swa guys would have a 20 year upgrade) and even AAI current contract doesn't even come close to ours! I want seniority in return. If it goes to arbitration I trust SWAPA. THIS WILL NOT GO DOWN LIKE DELTA/NWA! Sorry.
 
Gup/Tex, I'm not saying swapa are going to cave in and give the aai group a smoking deal at the expense of the swa group. I believe that a large portion, if not all, of the aai fos will be below the bottom swa pilot on the master sl. But, with fence protection, they will keep what they have now. That is a great deal for them and they might not want to send that back. It has to work out well for the swa group or they'll vote to send it to arbitration, and swa has a MUCH better case than aii in front of an arbitrator.
 
texman said:
I will say I am not cool with it. I sit close to CJ, and what I have seen on the AAI list in relation to average age ( 1500-1700 swa guys would have a 20 year upgrade) and even AAI current contract doesn't even come close to ours! I want seniority in return. If it goes to arbitration I trust SWAPA. THIS WILL NOT GO DOWN LIKE DELTA/NWA! Sorry.
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Don't worry I am sure the arbitrator will call you personally to make sure you are happy with the deal.
 
S3sundowner said:
Swapa will make you guys an offer that you might not get from an arbitrator. I'll bet the majority of aai pilots just want to get this done. As they say, a bird in the hand.....
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Guppy stated it correctly, for an offer to generate enough support on aai side that it is "better than an arbitrator's", there will be much of the SWAPA list upset with the union. Therefore, if it goes to arbitration, all the PO'd pilots can complain about a third party arbitrator the rest of their careers rather than launch a series of lawsuits against their own union.

It know it's all LUV at SWAPA, but pilots have been known to sue in the past and hold their own union in contempt before. If SWAPA can negotiate an agreeable SLI and keep over 2/3 of their union's support, then I will truly believe that SWA is very different than any other airline out there.

Good Luck!
 
Full of LUV said:
Guppy stated it correctly, for an offer to generate enough support on aai side that it is "better than an arbitrator's", there will be much of the SWAPA list upset with the union. Therefore, if it goes to arbitration, all the PO'd pilots can complain about a third party arbitrator the rest of their careers rather than launch a series of lawsuits against their own union.

It know it's all LUV at SWAPA, but pilots have been known to sue in the past and hold their own union in contempt before. If SWAPA can negotiate an agreeable SLI and keep over 2/3 of their union's support, then I will truly believe that SWA is very different than any other airline out there.

Good Luck!
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If it is voted in by the majority of the SWAPA boys and girls they would have no grounds for a lawsuit. I know you can sue for anything but I doubt they would get very far with it.
 
Posted this in another thread but it didn't get any feedback:

Just throwing this out there for folks to think about: what would be the harm to current Southwest pilots in stapling AT captains the bottom of SWA's captain list, and stapling AT FOs to the bottom of SWA's FO list? With this, everybody would keep the position they brought to the merger, would keep their longevity for pay, and SWA FOs would get the captain positions created by all attrition & growth, with the most junior SWA FO having an opportunity to upgrade before the most senior AT FO.

Sure, with the above there would be "winners" and "losers" (like there are in any SLI)...but it preserves the seats of existing AirTran CAs, gives existing SWA FOs first crack at all future captain positions, and allows AirTran FOs a substantial raise in pay to compensate for their upgrade being below all existing SWA FOs.

So, both sides - how out to lunch am I?
 
He probably won't explain it to you because the AAI guys have been asked to refrain from discussing SLI issues on public forums. I won't either, but, by your post Im going to assume you haven't been on a seniority list at an airline for very long. Hint ....try not to use the S word.
 

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