future of airlink and DConnection carriers....

[172driver]

...the fact is most ALPA regionals would be better off with Skywest pay and workrules...That is a fact....

Who is "lifting" the industry?

Nobody. It's sinking.

 

[DoinTime]

....most of the downward pressure on 70-90 seat rates comes from fellow ALPA carriers....Both "regional" and "mainline"....It isn't coming from Skywest.....

The downward pressure from SkyWest comes in their "override" arrangement of flight pay for larger equipment. Their large CRJ pay rates are just smoke screen to make it look like they are paid on industry terms.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The downward pressure from SkyWest comes in their "override" arrangement of flight pay for larger equipment. Their large CRJ pay rates are just smoke screen to make it look like they are paid on industry terms.

Their pay and workrules are better than PNCL and Mesa which got the new 90 seat flying....The overide is used at many ALPA carriers also...We had it ASA and EGL has it with the ATR 72s....I'm not a fan of it...but ALPA carriers use it also....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wrong.....again Joey....

Stifler,
I ask the question because I think working for a good company trumps ALPA representation…..The ALPA chest-thumpers seem to value ALPA over good management….I value good management over ALPA….Yes in a perfect world you have both….but this isn’t a perfect world…..

The representation on CapHill and at ICAO is critical. Of course this has no value to you... so you will blow it off...

PCL_128 is an ALPA cheerleader and he says he would rather work for Mesa than for Skywest…..That hurts the cause of ALPA as any intelligent person would rather work for Skywest than for Mesa…..

Your right that we are now seeing the benefits of Skywest here at ASA….This is one of the reasons I formed the ASACoalition and pushed ALPA to settle the contract…..

Is that like the Rainbow PUSH coalition?

The positive benefits of Skywest weren’t going to come about until the contract was settled….Some of the “hardliners” were holding out for much more and that simply wasn’t going to happen in this environment, and holding out for the “holy grail” of contracts was unreasonable and harmful…..

What are the positive benefits of OO?

As to your question…..I would rather work at ASA…but that is because of the seniority system…..not because of ALPA….

Seems to me, if ALPA didn't have seniority, then why would OO? Another benefit of ALPA you enjoy yet take for granted..

If I was going to start at the bottom of either…I would probably choose Skywest…..Skywest Inc. is in the drivers seat….not ALPA….We need to understand that….

Or you'd start under Jerry's desk.... OO is the driver seat....... today...

ALPA could be a lot more than it is….

It sure would...if ALPA members didn't sue...

and it could be stronger than it is…..

It sure could... if guys didn't trash the organization everytime they can... Jerry loves guys like you. You are managements vigilante's

If you get Danny or Newie aside they will tell you that ALPA has screwed up on the scope issue……

I'll tell you that too Joe.. Big deal...

Both were closet supporters of RJDC….What does that tell you? Why are we having to sue our own union over DFR issues?

Your lawsuits final solution has no value. How much did the RJDC spend and what did it really get..

The legal and aero medical parts of ALPA are good…..but they aren’t worth the 2% we pay….Most of what we pay goes for collective bargaining and we don’t get our money’s worth there…..ALPA needs a better argument than “the legal and aero medical are good”….Why isn’t the collective bargaining up to par?

Who does better collective bargaining?

I am looking for more than an “insurance policy”….I am looking for COLLECTIVE bargaining….there isn’t anything “collective” about ALPA in it’s current form….

No... you are looking for "What is in it for me Bargaining"


same ol popcorn eating butterfingers Joey...

 

[CFI2766]

Sorry guys, this one's been debated before. We all know Joey's and PCL's particular positions.

Any chance we could go back to sharing opinions on what will happen to the stepchildren after the forced marriage?

Odd, normally the kids go through trauma after a divorce, not a marriage...

 

[CFI2766]

Okay, I'll start.

ASA will be okay. SKYW will be okay, as long as United doesn't go under soon. (If that happens, it might be a good thing that we don't have onelist with the Salt Lakers...) Comair's future doesn't look too good to me.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry guys, this one's been debated before. We all know Joey's and PCL's particular positions.

Any chance we could go back to sharing opinions on what will happen to the stepchildren after the forced marriage?

Odd, normally the kids go through trauma after a divorce, not a marriage...

It's going to be a free for all......and it is going to be ugly.....

Now do you want to discuss how your union has been negligent in allowing this free for all to happen.....or do you just want your PIC time and want to go to a real airline like most of the current pilots.....

The only thing PCL, Rez, and I agree on is that most of you really don't want to get involved in the process....What are YOU doing to influence things?

 

[CFI2766]

It's going to be a free for all......and it is going to be ugly.....

Now do you want to discuss how your union has been negligent in allowing this free for all to happen.....or do you just want your PIC time and want to go to a real airline like most of the current pilots.....

The only thing PCL, Rez, and I agree on is that most of you really don't want to get involved in the process....What are YOU doing to influence things?

Of course I want my PIC time. My PIC time won't look good on someone else's resume, would it?

Looking at this career from the bottom up, it seems pretty clear that it's far better to be at one of the carriers that contracts out feed, than at one of the carriers that provides feed. Job security at the regional level hinges on providing the lowest cost to the 'parent' airline. Job security at the 'parent' airline hinges on fiding the lowest cost feed. Doesn't seem to leave too much in the way of an attractive carrer at the regional level. In fact, I recently read a thread from a pretty level-headed guy who related that he felt fortunate to have 15 years at a regional, a regional at which each year was better than the year before.

Of course I'd like to discuss how ALPA was negligent and ineffective in producing the current situation. I'd also like to discuss how the current top third of every regional seniority list influenced the current situation. Frankly, I think that they are both relevant, and, causes of the current situation.

I think that I started watching this play somewhere after the intermission between acts one and two, and I can't find the program with the plot synopsis. I hear several differnt versions of how the play started; I have to sift through several 'eye witness' accounts to come to my own conclusions as to how we got here.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Of course I'd like to discuss how ALPA was negligent and ineffective in producing the current situation. I'd also like to discuss how the current top third of every regional seniority list influenced the current situation. Frankly, I think that they are both relevant, and, causes of the current situation.

How did the top third of every regional seniority list influence the current situation....I'm all ears....

 

[CFI2766]

Kooooombye-ya and all, but I just don't see the Majors sticking to the idea of 'reclaiming' the regional flying. If CAL, AA, et al, go for taking all the 51+ plus seating in house, DAL, or other, will then soon have a competitive advantage by having cheaper regional feed. I think that market forces will be much stronger than any collective labor efforts. (For the record, I think it woud be far better for the pilot career/profession to have all flying done from one pilot group. It ain't gonna happen.)

If, however, the labor groups from the 'parent' airlines attempt to take regional flying in-house by force, I see very bad things happening.

 

[CFI2766]

How did the top third of every regional seniority list influence the current situation....I'm all ears....

It would be a fair summary to say that the 10+ year guys on the seniority list broke out the sheets, shams, and pillows for the bed that we are all positioned prone in now.

Didn't like how the industry was turning out? Change it. Get the votes, build the coalition, accumulate the political will to get it done. I know I'm vastly over-simplifying the process, but so are you by asking me what I'm doing to 'influence' things.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It would be a fair summary to say that the 10+ year guys on the seniority list broke out the sheets, shams, and pillows for the bed that we are all positioned prone in now.

Didn't like how the industry was turning out? Change it. Get the votes, build the coalition, accumulate the political will to get it done. I know I'm vastly over-simplifying the process, but so are you by asking me what I'm doing to 'influence' things.

...I still don't see how we influenced the current situation....We are adapting to it...but we didn't create it...Your going to have to be more specific.....I didn't make this bed....but I am going to lay down in it....and now it is my bed....

 

[Speedtape]

...I still don't see how we influenced the current situation....We are adapting to it...but we didn't create it...Your going to have to be more specific.....I didn't make this bed....but I am going to lay down in it....and now it is my bed....

More specifically, we just jumped on the roller coaster and will be hanging on for dear life!

 

[IronCityBlue]

Kooooombye-ya and all, but I just don't see the Majors sticking to the idea of 'reclaiming' the regional flying. If CAL, AA, et al, go for taking all the 51+ plus seating in house, DAL, or other, will then soon have a competitive advantage by having cheaper regional feed. I think that market forces will be much stronger than any collective labor efforts. (For the record, I think it woud be far better for the pilot career/profession to have all flying done from one pilot group. It ain't gonna happen.)

If, however, the labor groups from the 'parent' airlines attempt to take regional flying in-house by force, I see very bad things happening.

Not necessarily. CAL/AA and anyone else can do their own 51+ seat flying simply by doing it for market based rates, like any other airframe. That might include on par pay, workrules, retirement contributions, etc. so that the cost is the same as the outsource lift providers. That would make the final cost much cheaper to the mainline because the guaranteed profits would be saved instead of funding Jerry's war-chest (which WILL be used against legacies one day) as well as resetting the longevity of employees on the entry level aircraft.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not necessarily. CAL/AA and anyone else can do their own 51+ seat flying simply by doing it for market based rates, like any other airframe. That might include on par pay, workrules, retirement contributions, etc. so that the cost is the same as the outsource lift providers. That would make the final cost much cheaper to the mainline because the guaranteed profits would be saved instead of funding Jerry's war-chest (which WILL be used against legacies one day) as well as resetting the longevity of employees on the entry level aircraft.

The mainlines have already undercut the industry leading regional rates to "recapture" the flying.....If we did the same we would be accused of "stealing" flying....There is a double standard.....

I find part of your statement interesting....You imply that the money coming to Skywest will "be used against legacies one day"....can you expound on that?

 

[JoeMerchant]

More specifically, we just jumped on the roller coaster and will be hanging on for dear life!

....now why did you have to add another analogy....it is confusing enough with the bed analogy....now we have to start a new amusement park ride analogy.....Rez will never be able to keep up now....:laugh:

 

[Caspian27]

SkyWest has 700/900 pay overrides and an ASAP program.

 

[JoeMerchant]

SkyWest has 700/900 pay overrides and an ASAP program.

....and ASA (an ALPA carrier) doesn't have an ASAP program......

 

[Speedtape]

....and ASA (an ALPA carrier) doesn't have an ASAP program......

but we do have another self-disclosure program of a different kind!

 

[CFI2766]

but we do have another self-disclosure program of a different kind!

Explain?

 

[Speedtape]

Explain?

The Company uses the ?"Confidential"? information off the pilot-provided RIF to give the FAA disclosure that protects the Company. The pilot incriminates himself, then is BBQed with the information he provided. Somethings are better left unsaid, or the less said, the better, as they say.

 

[Lazy8]

SkyWest has 700/900 pay overrides and an ASAP program.

And the last few SKYW CRJ captains that were hired at Delta were removed from their schedules the same day they put their 2 and 3 week notices in - losing an entire months pay.

woops

No regional is worth a d@mn. Lets not turn this into a 'SkyWest is so awesome' thread.

 

[DoinTime]

SkyWest has 700/900 pay overrides and an ASAP program.

Pay overrides are an awful way to get paid (takes big money out of your pocket) and ASAP is nothing to brag about.

 

[IronCityBlue]

The mainlines have already undercut the industry leading regional rates to "recapture" the flying.....If we did the same we would be accused of "stealing" flying....There is a double standard.....

I find part of your statement interesting....You imply that the money coming to Skywest will "be used against legacies one day"....can you expound on that?

I don't think anyone could credibly accuse you of stealing permitted outsourced flying. Maybe another outsource ACMI lift provider, but such an accusation could never come credibly from the mainline pilot group if that's what you're implying. You have the right to bid whatever you want for that flying, but the mainline (management and/or pilots) each has the right to bring it back at anytime.

As for the "used against the legacies" I thought that part needed no explanation. Obviously one day Jerry will take his half a billion (more like well over a billion by then) and start his own airline. Like any well funded start up, he will slaughter yields nationwide in an attempt to gain market share before he burns through his cash. I think that is inevitable. His company is a well run, respected company, but like any "growth stock" he will not be content when his regional ACMI outsourced lift plateaus, and it will one day, probably soon. If 90's start leaving, followed by 70's, he will freak and make his move immediately, unless he can rustle up
more mainline partners.

Ditto for Republic. Bedford has delusions of grandeur of running an E190 fleet where he flies his own empty brand filled almost exclusively with mainline code from every legacy (as if that would ever be approoved by mainline pilot groups :laugh: ) but it is his dream.

ACA took 300+ million dollars they built up from Delta and United and used it against them (mostly against United). It was a bloody fight at a tough time, and United was able to crush the rebellion (how it appeared from their point of view) and replace the regional feed almost immediately.

CoEx is trying a similar thing, on a smaller scale, and in less overlapping markets. But they are taking the treasure they hoarded up in the glory days of guaranteed profits from a legacy and are using it on the open market. They are doing it on a much smaller scale than Indy did, with nothing over 50 seats for now, and in thin, creative markets. That's why the competitive response has been minimal thus far. They may or may not succeed in the long run, but in any case if they go hard after CAL or any other legacy for that matter, they will be crushed eventually, but both will bleed in the meantime.

Republic and/or SkyWest, Inc. are next. Maybe this year, maybe next year, or maybe a little later. But both will try eventually. Both are still drunk off of sustained guaranteed profits and exponential growth and bigger and bigger aircraft. First their beloved trend will stop, then go the other way and once that happens the only way they can survive long term is to take their war chests and go for it, despite the massive risks. When they do, they will bleed Delta and United (and USAir and Frontier, etc) but they will eventually be crushed, unless the legacies keep giving them massive growth so that they can build up 2 or 3 billion in savings. Then they may stand a chance, which is reason number 763 why they need to be pulled off the teet of subsidized outsourced large RJ flying sooner than later.

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Rumor for us (RAH) is we will be flying as Republic as a codeshare for united and delta. Don't know how the hell that is going to happen but you all know. Rumores are rumors and that 1 is a good one being thrown around.

Hell, why doesnt delta just buy us already and use a DOH integration (sarcasm intended)

 

[IronCityBlue]

Rumor for us (RAH) is we will be flying as Republic as a codeshare for united and delta. Don't know how the hell that is going to happen but you all know. Rumores are rumors and that 1 is a good one being thrown around.

Hell, why doesnt delta just buy us already and use a DOH integration (sarcasm intended)

I think that's what Bedford desperately wants. He knows his glory days of taking large RJ's as fast as the factory can deliver them are rapidly coming to an end and he wants to go bigger with the aircraft and further diversify how he flies for airlines, because he knows that, long term, his business is at severe risk, with another RFP always being right around the corner, and many RFP's being for current flying, not just growth.

If he tries to fly the E190 and code with UA/DL he will have to get the permission of their pilot groups. I predict he is about 5 to 10 years too late with that strategy, because there is no way mainline pilot groups are going to cave on the E190. Maybe F9 if they get close to liquidation, but that will be it. Even so, the DL and UA pilots would never approve it, so Bedford would have an orphaned aircraft. He has a safety net though. I hear Brazil is looking for some.

 

[TurboAWD]

Oh I get it! Capture the flying now and get the pay rates up later right? Looks like you guys fell for this one hook line and sinker. How embarrassing for you. Everyone has given Skywest so much crap for flying 70's for 50 seat pay. You guys have gotten a free pass from people because you are ALPA. Enjoy those 900's ya whores.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

The pilots at Pinnacle:

1) Had no say in the company acquiring larger equipment

2) Are in arbitration for pay rates for the 900 that will include full back pay.

3) Regardless of what the arbitrator decides, will negotiate a pay rate on their next contract.

4) Voted 99.39% to strike if necessary to get a decent contract.

TurboAWD

 

[amcnd]

And the last few SKYW CRJ captains that were hired at Delta were removed from their schedules the same day they put their 2 and 3 week notices in - losing an entire months pay.

woops

No regional is worth a d@mn. Lets not turn this into a 'SkyWest is so awesome' thread.

Not true!!! (how do I know?) Because I DO!!

 

[Ridgeback]

Of course I want my PIC time. My PIC time won't look good on someone else's resume, would it?

Looking at this career from the bottom up, it seems pretty clear that it's far better to be at one of the carriers that contracts out feed, than at one of the carriers that provides feed. quote]


Let's see? SkyWest had to buy ASA to get Delta to sign a deal with them...

Air Wisconsin had to invest how much into US Air when the United music stopped...

I would say Comair, Mesaba, and Compass are all goint to do just fine. After all they are worth much more after they are built up and sold then when they are in your SkyWest's position...After all didn't Delta have to come up with another 9 million last quarter to cover your contract with them? How much extra did NWA have to come up with to cover the Mesaba and Compass flying...That should answer who stays and who goes...

 

[doug_or]

If he tries to fly the E190 and code with UA/DL he will have to get the permission of their pilot groups.

Are you sure about that? If he paints them up as "Republic Airlines" and sells his own seats, what's stopping him from starting a code share with UA? I don't think the UA pilots got a say in whether or not UA code shares with US, LH, or anyone else not painted in UAX colors.