future of airlink and DConnection carriers....

[172driver]

...the fact is most ALPA regionals would be better off with Skywest pay and workrules...That is a fact....

Who is "lifting" the industry?

Nobody. It's sinking.

 

[DoinTime]

....most of the downward pressure on 70-90 seat rates comes from fellow ALPA carriers....Both "regional" and "mainline"....It isn't coming from Skywest.....

The downward pressure from SkyWest comes in their "override" arrangement of flight pay for larger equipment. Their large CRJ pay rates are just smoke screen to make it look like they are paid on industry terms.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The downward pressure from SkyWest comes in their "override" arrangement of flight pay for larger equipment. Their large CRJ pay rates are just smoke screen to make it look like they are paid on industry terms.

Their pay and workrules are better than PNCL and Mesa which got the new 90 seat flying....The overide is used at many ALPA carriers also...We had it ASA and EGL has it with the ATR 72s....I'm not a fan of it...but ALPA carriers use it also....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wrong.....again Joey....

Stifler,
I ask the question because I think working for a good company trumps ALPA representation…..The ALPA chest-thumpers seem to value ALPA over good management….I value good management over ALPA….Yes in a perfect world you have both….but this isn’t a perfect world…..

The representation on CapHill and at ICAO is critical. Of course this has no value to you... so you will blow it off...

PCL_128 is an ALPA cheerleader and he says he would rather work for Mesa than for Skywest…..That hurts the cause of ALPA as any intelligent person would rather work for Skywest than for Mesa…..

Your right that we are now seeing the benefits of Skywest here at ASA….This is one of the reasons I formed the ASACoalition and pushed ALPA to settle the contract…..

Is that like the Rainbow PUSH coalition?

The positive benefits of Skywest weren’t going to come about until the contract was settled….Some of the “hardliners” were holding out for much more and that simply wasn’t going to happen in this environment, and holding out for the “holy grail” of contracts was unreasonable and harmful…..

What are the positive benefits of OO?

As to your question…..I would rather work at ASA…but that is because of the seniority system…..not because of ALPA….

Seems to me, if ALPA didn't have seniority, then why would OO? Another benefit of ALPA you enjoy yet take for granted..

If I was going to start at the bottom of either…I would probably choose Skywest…..Skywest Inc. is in the drivers seat….not ALPA….We need to understand that….

Or you'd start under Jerry's desk.... OO is the driver seat....... today...

ALPA could be a lot more than it is….

It sure would...if ALPA members didn't sue...

and it could be stronger than it is…..

It sure could... if guys didn't trash the organization everytime they can... Jerry loves guys like you. You are managements vigilante's

If you get Danny or Newie aside they will tell you that ALPA has screwed up on the scope issue……

I'll tell you that too Joe.. Big deal...

Both were closet supporters of RJDC….What does that tell you? Why are we having to sue our own union over DFR issues?

Your lawsuits final solution has no value. How much did the RJDC spend and what did it really get..

The legal and aero medical parts of ALPA are good…..but they aren’t worth the 2% we pay….Most of what we pay goes for collective bargaining and we don’t get our money’s worth there…..ALPA needs a better argument than “the legal and aero medical are good”….Why isn’t the collective bargaining up to par?

Who does better collective bargaining?

I am looking for more than an “insurance policy”….I am looking for COLLECTIVE bargaining….there isn’t anything “collective” about ALPA in it’s current form….

No... you are looking for "What is in it for me Bargaining"


same ol popcorn eating butterfingers Joey...

 

[CFI2766]

Sorry guys, this one's been debated before. We all know Joey's and PCL's particular positions.

Any chance we could go back to sharing opinions on what will happen to the stepchildren after the forced marriage?

Odd, normally the kids go through trauma after a divorce, not a marriage...

 

[CFI2766]

Okay, I'll start.

ASA will be okay. SKYW will be okay, as long as United doesn't go under soon. (If that happens, it might be a good thing that we don't have onelist with the Salt Lakers...) Comair's future doesn't look too good to me.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry guys, this one's been debated before. We all know Joey's and PCL's particular positions.

Any chance we could go back to sharing opinions on what will happen to the stepchildren after the forced marriage?

Odd, normally the kids go through trauma after a divorce, not a marriage...

It's going to be a free for all......and it is going to be ugly.....

Now do you want to discuss how your union has been negligent in allowing this free for all to happen.....or do you just want your PIC time and want to go to a real airline like most of the current pilots.....

The only thing PCL, Rez, and I agree on is that most of you really don't want to get involved in the process....What are YOU doing to influence things?

 

[CFI2766]

It's going to be a free for all......and it is going to be ugly.....

Now do you want to discuss how your union has been negligent in allowing this free for all to happen.....or do you just want your PIC time and want to go to a real airline like most of the current pilots.....

The only thing PCL, Rez, and I agree on is that most of you really don't want to get involved in the process....What are YOU doing to influence things?

Of course I want my PIC time. My PIC time won't look good on someone else's resume, would it?

Looking at this career from the bottom up, it seems pretty clear that it's far better to be at one of the carriers that contracts out feed, than at one of the carriers that provides feed. Job security at the regional level hinges on providing the lowest cost to the 'parent' airline. Job security at the 'parent' airline hinges on fiding the lowest cost feed. Doesn't seem to leave too much in the way of an attractive carrer at the regional level. In fact, I recently read a thread from a pretty level-headed guy who related that he felt fortunate to have 15 years at a regional, a regional at which each year was better than the year before.

Of course I'd like to discuss how ALPA was negligent and ineffective in producing the current situation. I'd also like to discuss how the current top third of every regional seniority list influenced the current situation. Frankly, I think that they are both relevant, and, causes of the current situation.

I think that I started watching this play somewhere after the intermission between acts one and two, and I can't find the program with the plot synopsis. I hear several differnt versions of how the play started; I have to sift through several 'eye witness' accounts to come to my own conclusions as to how we got here.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Of course I'd like to discuss how ALPA was negligent and ineffective in producing the current situation. I'd also like to discuss how the current top third of every regional seniority list influenced the current situation. Frankly, I think that they are both relevant, and, causes of the current situation.

How did the top third of every regional seniority list influence the current situation....I'm all ears....

 

[CFI2766]

Kooooombye-ya and all, but I just don't see the Majors sticking to the idea of 'reclaiming' the regional flying. If CAL, AA, et al, go for taking all the 51+ plus seating in house, DAL, or other, will then soon have a competitive advantage by having cheaper regional feed. I think that market forces will be much stronger than any collective labor efforts. (For the record, I think it woud be far better for the pilot career/profession to have all flying done from one pilot group. It ain't gonna happen.)

If, however, the labor groups from the 'parent' airlines attempt to take regional flying in-house by force, I see very bad things happening.

 

[CFI2766]

How did the top third of every regional seniority list influence the current situation....I'm all ears....

It would be a fair summary to say that the 10+ year guys on the seniority list broke out the sheets, shams, and pillows for the bed that we are all positioned prone in now.

Didn't like how the industry was turning out? Change it. Get the votes, build the coalition, accumulate the political will to get it done. I know I'm vastly over-simplifying the process, but so are you by asking me what I'm doing to 'influence' things.

 

[JoeMerchant]

It would be a fair summary to say that the 10+ year guys on the seniority list broke out the sheets, shams, and pillows for the bed that we are all positioned prone in now.

Didn't like how the industry was turning out? Change it. Get the votes, build the coalition, accumulate the political will to get it done. I know I'm vastly over-simplifying the process, but so are you by asking me what I'm doing to 'influence' things.

...I still don't see how we influenced the current situation....We are adapting to it...but we didn't create it...Your going to have to be more specific.....I didn't make this bed....but I am going to lay down in it....and now it is my bed....

 

[Speedtape]

...I still don't see how we influenced the current situation....We are adapting to it...but we didn't create it...Your going to have to be more specific.....I didn't make this bed....but I am going to lay down in it....and now it is my bed....

More specifically, we just jumped on the roller coaster and will be hanging on for dear life!

 

[IronCityBlue]

Kooooombye-ya and all, but I just don't see the Majors sticking to the idea of 'reclaiming' the regional flying. If CAL, AA, et al, go for taking all the 51+ plus seating in house, DAL, or other, will then soon have a competitive advantage by having cheaper regional feed. I think that market forces will be much stronger than any collective labor efforts. (For the record, I think it woud be far better for the pilot career/profession to have all flying done from one pilot group. It ain't gonna happen.)

If, however, the labor groups from the 'parent' airlines attempt to take regional flying in-house by force, I see very bad things happening.

Not necessarily. CAL/AA and anyone else can do their own 51+ seat flying simply by doing it for market based rates, like any other airframe. That might include on par pay, workrules, retirement contributions, etc. so that the cost is the same as the outsource lift providers. That would make the final cost much cheaper to the mainline because the guaranteed profits would be saved instead of funding Jerry's war-chest (which WILL be used against legacies one day) as well as resetting the longevity of employees on the entry level aircraft.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Not necessarily. CAL/AA and anyone else can do their own 51+ seat flying simply by doing it for market based rates, like any other airframe. That might include on par pay, workrules, retirement contributions, etc. so that the cost is the same as the outsource lift providers. That would make the final cost much cheaper to the mainline because the guaranteed profits would be saved instead of funding Jerry's war-chest (which WILL be used against legacies one day) as well as resetting the longevity of employees on the entry level aircraft.

The mainlines have already undercut the industry leading regional rates to "recapture" the flying.....If we did the same we would be accused of "stealing" flying....There is a double standard.....

I find part of your statement interesting....You imply that the money coming to Skywest will "be used against legacies one day"....can you expound on that?