future of airlink and DConnection carriers....

[SaturnPilot]

Oh I get it! Capture the flying now and get the pay rates up later right? Looks like you guys fell for this one hook line and sinker. How embarrassing for you. Everyone has given Skywest so much crap for flying 70's for 50 seat pay. You guys have gotten a free pass from people because you are ALPA. Enjoy those 900's ya whores.

Genius,

back in reality, when an airline like PCL aquires a new type of airplane that they do not have rates for, there are sections of the contract that describe step by step how those rates will be established. In the PCL contract it states that both parties will attempt to negotiate a rate, and if unable, will take the issue to arbitration. The process is currently in arbitration awaiting an outcome. PCL pilots have no say in when that is. If PCL pilots were really the "whores" you call them, they would have agreed to crappy rates back when the opportunity was there to negotiate. Instead, management went out and got these aircraft with no input what-so-ever from PCL pilots and put them on property...nobody fell for anything "hook line and sinker"

You should probably do a little more research before you post crap like this

 

[SaturnPilot]

...the fact is most ALPA regionals would be better off with Skywest pay and workrules...That is a fact....

I don't think so...I'd rather work for a company where I can't be fired for no reason without recourse, or where I can be violated at whim with no ASAP protections, or where if I lose my medical for some reason there are doctors who work to get it back for me, etc.

Why do you think Skywest has the pay and workrules they do? Could it be because they want to keep ALPA off property?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't think so...I'd rather work for a company where I can't be fired for no reason without recourse, or where I can be violated at whim with no ASAP protections, or where if I lose my medical for some reason there are doctors who work to get it back for me, etc.

Why do you think Skywest has the pay and workrules they do? Could it be because they want to keep ALPA off property?

So you would rather work for Mesa and Pinnacle? Why would Skywest fire someone "for no reason" as you say? That doesn't make any sense?

I'll ask you the same question I asked PCL_128....Would you rather work for Skywest or Mesa? PCL said he would rather work for Mesa which brings his judgement into question....How about you?

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Joe,

I knew you were going to ask that question as soon as I read Saturn's post.

Obviously working at SKW would be better than Mesa. However, I understand what PCL and Saturn are saying when this comes up.

The leadership at SKW is good, heck, we're seeing that now with Brad here, and Mesa's is well...Mesa Sucks right?

Would you rather work at SKW or ASA? How about, would you rather work at ASA with or without a union?

Let's say all your gripes with ALPA are valid for the fun of it. I would much rather pay my 2% every month for nothing more than the legal and medical representation alone. I hope to never need it, but it's a nice insurance policy to have.

 

[SaturnPilot]

So you would rather work for Mesa and Pinnacle? Why would Skywest fire someone "for no reason" as you say? That doesn't make any sense?

Skywest could have a reason for firing an employee, but if that reason were not sound and justified, then the employee has no recourse. For example, the new asst chief at PCL just suspended a pilot for 30 days when the he had his first ever MINOR event because the asst chief (grossly unqualified) was upset about what ANOTHER employee said about him. Luckily that pilot will have that overturned through grievance.

I'll ask you the same question I asked PCL_128....Would you rather work for Skywest or Mesa? PCL said he would rather work for Mesa which brings his judgement into question....How about you?

Mesa and PCL suck mainly because their managements are not fit to run even a McDonalds. Yes Skywest is a good company to work for, but that is not because they are non-union, it is because their management runs the company that way. Just like Expressjet is a good company to work for because their management isn't stuck back in the 1960's with PCL and Mesa management. There is still something to be said for having the protections of ASAP, the RLA, aeromedical, etc. To answer your question, I would rather not work at Skywest, Mesa, or PCL

 

[i fly boxes]

look we all know Pinnacle is not where it needs to be, but we are really trying to raise the bar, trust me. We are unified, and we know that all other airlines are looking at what we do with this contract stuff. Remember that the next time you bash us for stuff we can't control

 

[CA1900]

Why in the world are you Pinnacle turds flying those 900's then? I know it's big and pretty and something new but damn! And I thought Mesa was bad...:angryfire

Where is it... where is it.... A-ha! Pop Secret Homestyle Butter. That's the one.

Give me about two minutes.............

OK, please continue, gentlemen. :laugh:

 

[JoeMerchant]

Where is it... where is it.... A-ha! Pop Secret Homestyle Butter. That's the one.

Give me about two minutes.............

OK, please continue, gentlemen. :laugh:

....want some salt on it? Here ya go....:laugh:

 

[Stifler's Mom]

No kidding. Wait 'till Rez and PCL start reading this thread.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe,

I knew you were going to ask that question as soon as I read Saturn's post.

Obviously working at SKW would be better than Mesa. However, I understand what PCL and Saturn are saying when this comes up.

The leadership at SKW is good, heck, we're seeing that now with Brad here, and Mesa's is well...Mesa Sucks right?

Would you rather work at SKW or ASA? How about, would you rather work at ASA with or without a union?

Let's say all your gripes with ALPA are valid for the fun of it. I would much rather pay my 2% every month for nothing more than the legal and medical representation alone. I hope to never need it, but it's a nice insurance policy to have.

Stifler,
I ask the question because I think working for a good company trumps ALPA representation…..The ALPA chest-thumpers seem to value ALPA over good management….I value good management over ALPA….Yes in a perfect world you have both….but this isn’t a perfect world…..

PCL_128 is an ALPA cheerleader and he says he would rather work for Mesa than for Skywest…..That hurts the cause of ALPA as any intelligent person would rather work for Skywest than for Mesa…..

Your right that we are now seeing the benefits of Skywest here at ASA….This is one of the reasons I formed the ASACoalition and pushed ALPA to settle the contract…..The positive benefits of Skywest weren’t going to come about until the contract was settled….Some of the “hardliners” were holding out for much more and that simply wasn’t going to happen in this environment, and holding out for the “holy grail” of contracts was unreasonable and harmful…..

As to your question…..I would rather work at ASA…but that is because of the seniority system…..not because of ALPA….If I was going to start at the bottom of either…I would probably choose Skywest…..Skywest Inc. is in the drivers seat….not ALPA….We need to understand that….

ALPA could be a lot more than it is….and it could be stronger than it is…..If you get Danny or Newie aside they will tell you that ALPA has screwed up on the scope issue……Both were closet supporters of RJDC….What does that tell you? Why are we having to sue our own union over DFR issues?

The legal and aero medical parts of ALPA are good…..but they aren’t worth the 2% we pay….Most of what we pay goes for collective bargaining and we don’t get our money’s worth there…..ALPA needs a better argument than “the legal and aero medical are good”….Why isn’t the collective bargaining up to par?
I am looking for more than an “insurance policy”….I am looking for COLLECTIVE bargaining….there isn’t anything “collective” about ALPA in it’s current form….

 

[172driver]

...the fact is most ALPA regionals would be better off with Skywest pay and workrules...That is a fact....

Who is "lifting" the industry?

Nobody. It's sinking.

 

[DoinTime]

....most of the downward pressure on 70-90 seat rates comes from fellow ALPA carriers....Both "regional" and "mainline"....It isn't coming from Skywest.....

The downward pressure from SkyWest comes in their "override" arrangement of flight pay for larger equipment. Their large CRJ pay rates are just smoke screen to make it look like they are paid on industry terms.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The downward pressure from SkyWest comes in their "override" arrangement of flight pay for larger equipment. Their large CRJ pay rates are just smoke screen to make it look like they are paid on industry terms.

Their pay and workrules are better than PNCL and Mesa which got the new 90 seat flying....The overide is used at many ALPA carriers also...We had it ASA and EGL has it with the ATR 72s....I'm not a fan of it...but ALPA carriers use it also....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wrong.....again Joey....

Stifler,
I ask the question because I think working for a good company trumps ALPA representation…..The ALPA chest-thumpers seem to value ALPA over good management….I value good management over ALPA….Yes in a perfect world you have both….but this isn’t a perfect world…..

The representation on CapHill and at ICAO is critical. Of course this has no value to you... so you will blow it off...

PCL_128 is an ALPA cheerleader and he says he would rather work for Mesa than for Skywest…..That hurts the cause of ALPA as any intelligent person would rather work for Skywest than for Mesa…..

Your right that we are now seeing the benefits of Skywest here at ASA….This is one of the reasons I formed the ASACoalition and pushed ALPA to settle the contract…..

Is that like the Rainbow PUSH coalition?

The positive benefits of Skywest weren’t going to come about until the contract was settled….Some of the “hardliners” were holding out for much more and that simply wasn’t going to happen in this environment, and holding out for the “holy grail” of contracts was unreasonable and harmful…..

What are the positive benefits of OO?

As to your question…..I would rather work at ASA…but that is because of the seniority system…..not because of ALPA….

Seems to me, if ALPA didn't have seniority, then why would OO? Another benefit of ALPA you enjoy yet take for granted..

If I was going to start at the bottom of either…I would probably choose Skywest…..Skywest Inc. is in the drivers seat….not ALPA….We need to understand that….

Or you'd start under Jerry's desk.... OO is the driver seat....... today...

ALPA could be a lot more than it is….

It sure would...if ALPA members didn't sue...

and it could be stronger than it is…..

It sure could... if guys didn't trash the organization everytime they can... Jerry loves guys like you. You are managements vigilante's

If you get Danny or Newie aside they will tell you that ALPA has screwed up on the scope issue……

I'll tell you that too Joe.. Big deal...

Both were closet supporters of RJDC….What does that tell you? Why are we having to sue our own union over DFR issues?

Your lawsuits final solution has no value. How much did the RJDC spend and what did it really get..

The legal and aero medical parts of ALPA are good…..but they aren’t worth the 2% we pay….Most of what we pay goes for collective bargaining and we don’t get our money’s worth there…..ALPA needs a better argument than “the legal and aero medical are good”….Why isn’t the collective bargaining up to par?

Who does better collective bargaining?

I am looking for more than an “insurance policy”….I am looking for COLLECTIVE bargaining….there isn’t anything “collective” about ALPA in it’s current form….

No... you are looking for "What is in it for me Bargaining"


same ol popcorn eating butterfingers Joey...

 

[CFI2766]

Sorry guys, this one's been debated before. We all know Joey's and PCL's particular positions.

Any chance we could go back to sharing opinions on what will happen to the stepchildren after the forced marriage?

Odd, normally the kids go through trauma after a divorce, not a marriage...

 

[CFI2766]

Okay, I'll start.

ASA will be okay. SKYW will be okay, as long as United doesn't go under soon. (If that happens, it might be a good thing that we don't have onelist with the Salt Lakers...) Comair's future doesn't look too good to me.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sorry guys, this one's been debated before. We all know Joey's and PCL's particular positions.

Any chance we could go back to sharing opinions on what will happen to the stepchildren after the forced marriage?

Odd, normally the kids go through trauma after a divorce, not a marriage...

It's going to be a free for all......and it is going to be ugly.....

Now do you want to discuss how your union has been negligent in allowing this free for all to happen.....or do you just want your PIC time and want to go to a real airline like most of the current pilots.....

The only thing PCL, Rez, and I agree on is that most of you really don't want to get involved in the process....What are YOU doing to influence things?

 

[CFI2766]

It's going to be a free for all......and it is going to be ugly.....

Now do you want to discuss how your union has been negligent in allowing this free for all to happen.....or do you just want your PIC time and want to go to a real airline like most of the current pilots.....

The only thing PCL, Rez, and I agree on is that most of you really don't want to get involved in the process....What are YOU doing to influence things?

Of course I want my PIC time. My PIC time won't look good on someone else's resume, would it?

Looking at this career from the bottom up, it seems pretty clear that it's far better to be at one of the carriers that contracts out feed, than at one of the carriers that provides feed. Job security at the regional level hinges on providing the lowest cost to the 'parent' airline. Job security at the 'parent' airline hinges on fiding the lowest cost feed. Doesn't seem to leave too much in the way of an attractive carrer at the regional level. In fact, I recently read a thread from a pretty level-headed guy who related that he felt fortunate to have 15 years at a regional, a regional at which each year was better than the year before.

Of course I'd like to discuss how ALPA was negligent and ineffective in producing the current situation. I'd also like to discuss how the current top third of every regional seniority list influenced the current situation. Frankly, I think that they are both relevant, and, causes of the current situation.

I think that I started watching this play somewhere after the intermission between acts one and two, and I can't find the program with the plot synopsis. I hear several differnt versions of how the play started; I have to sift through several 'eye witness' accounts to come to my own conclusions as to how we got here.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Of course I'd like to discuss how ALPA was negligent and ineffective in producing the current situation. I'd also like to discuss how the current top third of every regional seniority list influenced the current situation. Frankly, I think that they are both relevant, and, causes of the current situation.

How did the top third of every regional seniority list influence the current situation....I'm all ears....

 

[CFI2766]

Kooooombye-ya and all, but I just don't see the Majors sticking to the idea of 'reclaiming' the regional flying. If CAL, AA, et al, go for taking all the 51+ plus seating in house, DAL, or other, will then soon have a competitive advantage by having cheaper regional feed. I think that market forces will be much stronger than any collective labor efforts. (For the record, I think it woud be far better for the pilot career/profession to have all flying done from one pilot group. It ain't gonna happen.)

If, however, the labor groups from the 'parent' airlines attempt to take regional flying in-house by force, I see very bad things happening.