Frontier reaches TA with pilots

[Shrek]

YOU.....are a tool

 

[monkeybrains01]

I don't understand why someone can't post some details? Its not like it is classified information.

What do you want to know.

-Unlimited TPs, 1 for 2 Rjs for Airbus currently on property, 1 for 1 after that. -30% up to 88 seats.
-Pay freeze fo CAs (stretches the longevity scale to 14 years)
-COLA raises in year 3 and 4 (1.5% I think)
-RSV rules change a bit, nothing too bad
-6% DC (starts 3rd year of longevity at 2+% and creeps up a little each year
-New 1st year f/o pay drops to around $36 / hr
-The hats stay
-They spent a lot of time on successorship, merger, etc
-A bunch of other stuff, (some ok, some not so OK) but the first line is the biggie,

 

[DougCorp-9]

Pay freeze is another way of saying paycut. Your buying power is decreasing. A COLA is a pay freeze. I hope you guys don't bite off on this.

 

[ualdriver]

Well if they get a DC contribution that they weren't getting otherwise, that has to be taken into consideration as far as a pay freeze is concerned. For example, if a Frontier guy next year is getting a 2% DC contribution and a 1 1/2% pay raise, and he was getting neither before, then in fact that is a raise of over 3 1/2% (when considering tax implications). I'm not saying that's what they're getting because I'm not entirely sure from monkeybrain's post as it lacks much detail, but I guess that's possible. More details would be nice.

I agree with the guys above about scope. Don't make the same mistakes we did at the legacies and give away those 70 seaters. Heck, or the 50 seaters either........

 

[curtaindriver]

This may have been covered, so I apologize. But, why are you guys in concessionary discussions at all? Obviously the storm over the holidays wreaked some havoc, but this ball was rolling before that. F9 seems to be ok with spending money on Lynx and other sub-contracted vendors to fly airplanes, so why the need to ask for give-backs....and yes freezes are paycuts. My opinion doesn't mean anything, but you guys/gals should be fighting for those EMB's to be on property and flown by current F9 pilots. Good luck. We have our own problems here at JetBlue, and yes the payscale sucks on the 190....but at least we fly it.

CD

 

[ferlo]

1.5% is HALF of what you need for a COLA. This thing will continue to devalue and degrade the profession. Vote No.

 

[Toobdrvr]

Cool!

Wow, you're a manager's wet dream.

Thanks!!! ;D

 

[jetalc]

jetalc...

Before you get your panties in a wad, F9 refers to pax carriers once in the statement concerning first year FO pay. If he so intended, I gave him the pass in my post. Yes, I actually do read the posts before responding, perhaps you should read mine again.

Aviator7576

No panties in a wad - bigger things to be concerned about than your input. However, after having re-read F9's post myself, I regretfully admit to being wrong. You're right - he was referring to first year FO pay, not Captain pay. I don't even consider the cargo carriers as being in the same ballpark as the pax carriers, so it didn't originally raise a red flag for me. He also didn't stipulate US Carriers either, so an argument could be made that there are probably some foreign carriers' CA pay that is also higher. Whatever. I stand corrected.

 

[monkeybrains01]

mgmt wanted about 9-10% paycut across the board when negs. started. The latest storms had nothing to do with it.

UAL Driver, the COLAs dont start until year 3 and 4 of the contract. Nothing until then.

 

[ualdriver]

Oh yeah. That part sucks then. Sorry to hear it.

 

[crashpad]

I learn all the stuff on flightinfo.com that I never find out at work.
This is truely the National Enquirer of avaiation websites!

 

[Green]

When every other airline gets a TA pilots rush to post the details here. Why the secrecy this time? Is it posted somewhere else?

 

[F9 Driver]

When every other airline gets a TA pilots rush to post the details here. Why the secrecy this time? Is it posted somewhere else?

Real question.

Who else's TA has been posted here lately?

I know that Fed-Ex showed their's, but other than that who?

I think we are on the leading edge of groups to negotiate, and our voting hasn't even started yet.

How 'bout you cut us some slack, and let us digest the info before turning it over to the FI wizards to decide if we are doing a great injustice to the industry.

 

[embdrvr]

When you have the convulsions that have occured, well managed companies with pilot groups that work in concert with management for stability generally will have a much smoother transition as the industry changes. I think SWA has been a great example of this in the past. Whether they will continue to see the same success will be determined in the next few years.

imp:​

Dear Crackpipesmoker,

When did SWA pilots take concessions that made their managers rich with no benefit to themselves? If you were a pilot you'd know that in most cases management gets huge raises and bonuses for lowering crew costs and the pilots simply make less money.

I hope F9 pilots see this miserable POS for what it is and tell Potter to go pound sand.

 

[Green]

Real question.

Who else's TA has been posted here lately?

I know that Fed-Ex showed their's, but other than that who?

I think we are on the leading edge of groups to negotiate, and our voting hasn't even started yet.

How 'bout you cut us some slack, and let us digest the info before turning it over to the FI wizards to decide if we are doing a great injustice to the industry.

Well of course there was UPS and FedEx that posted the details. Also there were several regionals over the last year or two that posted their concesionary ta's and don't forget about America West/Us Airways. We posted our agreed upon E190 rates as soon as we got them despite the fact that they are embarrassingly low. You don't need to post your details I just personally think it is somewhat weak to hide them from everyone. Best of luck with your contract! Hopefully you guys don't get a concessionary contract right as everyone else begings negotiating raises.

 

[F9 Driver]

What do you want to know.

-Unlimited TPs, 1 for 2 Rjs for Airbus currently on property, 1 for 1 after that. -30% up to 88 seats.
-Pay freeze fo CAs (stretches the longevity scale to 14 years)
-COLA raises in year 3 and 4 (1.5% I think)
-RSV rules change a bit, nothing too bad
-6% DC (starts 3rd year of longevity at 2+% and creeps up a little each year
-New 1st year f/o pay drops to around $36 / hr
-The hats stay
-They spent a lot of time on successorship, merger, etc
-A bunch of other stuff, (some ok, some not so OK) but the first line is the biggie,

Here you go Green!

 

[embdrvr]

We'll take up a collection for the KY jelly you'll be needing if that gets approved.
Unlimited TP's translates to a bunch of Q-400's with 76 seats.
You guys will become the virtual airline with far more Lynx aircraft than Airbi.
Then Potter and his minions of evil will start another alter ego to compete with Lynx.
Eventually it will implode.
Executive management will walk away with tens of millions in bonus money and golden handshakes.
The original F9 guys will be shaking their heads wondering "WTF happened? This used to be a halfway decent job." FAPA will negotiate J4J at the new alter ego, "Rabbit", and the Bus drivers will be making $45K a year in the left seat of an E-199 1/2 that seats 139 pax.

You heard it here on FI first.

Peace out.

 

[climb2slow]

i'm not even close to taking the time to post all the new rates from the TA...but here's a snapshot...let's take proposed 10 year captain pay and 5 year FO pay.
Captains (10 Year)

Frontier 146.37
Airtran 144.00
United 128.00
Jetblue 138.00
Alaska 148.00
SWA 194.00

First Officers (5 year)

Frontier 82.00
Airtran 72.00
United 78.00
Jetblue 72.00
Alaska 86.00
SWA 119.00

You tell me whose rates are 'dragging' down the industry.

I totally agree the the language with RJ's and turboprops needs alot of work..I see no reason to give away that many Rj's right out of the gate. But the rates anyways, aren't out of line.

(these numbers are from airline pilot central, and include only rates for A320 series or 737 series aircraft from the various companies)

 

[PCL_128]

We'll take up a collection for the KY jelly you'll be needing if that gets approved.
Unlimited TP's translates to a bunch of Q-400's with 76 seats.
You guys will become the virtual airline with far more Lynx aircraft than Airbi.
Then Potter and his minions of evil will start another alter ego to compete with Lynx.
Eventually it will implode.
Executive management will walk away with tens of millions in bonus money and golden handshakes.
The original F9 guys will be shaking their heads wondering "WTF happened? This used to be a halfway decent job." FAPA will negotiate J4J at the new alter ego, "Rabbit", and the Bus drivers will be making $45K a year in the left seat of an E-199 1/2 that seats 139 pax.

You heard it here on FI first.

Peace out.

At least somebody learned from the past two decades of scope erosion.

 

[embdrvr]

i'm not even close to taking the time to post all the new rates from the TA...but here's a snapshot...let's take proposed 10 year captain pay and 5 year FO pay.
Captains (10 Year)

Frontier 146.37
Airtran 144.00
United 128.00
Jetblue 138.00
Alaska 148.00
SWA 194.00

First Officers (5 year)

Frontier 82.00
Airtran 72.00
United 78.00
Jetblue 72.00
Alaska 86.00
SWA 119.00

You tell me whose rates are 'dragging' down the industry.

I totally agree the the language with RJ's and turboprops needs alot of work..I see no reason to give away that many Rj's right out of the gate. But the rates anyways, aren't out of line.

(these numbers are from airline pilot central, and include only rates for A320 series or 737 series aircraft from the various companies)

Don't make the mistake of comparing other's concessionary rates with what is being negotiated now. Also consider work rules and retirement. The industry is poised for a comeback. Airlines are turning the corner and becoming profitable again. Now is not the time to justify concessions especially if you're giving up so much in the way of scope.

UAL - rates effected by bankruptcy
Alaska - rates effected by government mediator
JetBlue - stock options, higher rate for hours exceeding xx

Don't be a defeatist. You guys are "the most productive in the industry"
You need to be looking at moving up not down.