Frontier reaches TA with pilots

[Shrek]

Well maybe he can "google".........Railway Labor Act then.........

lol

 

[maru657]

I have friends at Frnt; and SouthWest. Some think that the actions of SouthWest in DEN are defensive more than preditory. With Airtran and JetBlue nipping at their heels, Southwest is now possibly a target.

 

[TOGA]

1. LoweCur is not a pilot, much less a Frontier pilot. LoweCur, you have just enough knowledge to make yourself sound smart to someone OUTSIDE the industry.

2. Anything less than COLA raises equals pay cuts. A TA with pay freezes after two years without a raise would be a significant cumulative pay cut at a time when contracts are about to start going the other way.

3. Any scenario in which anyone other than FAPA pilots fly anything with Frontier on the side equals loss of growth potential and job security. One List is the only answer, and the company can still have whatever advantages they believe they'll reap by operating two companies.

4. Potter is not a great manager. Maybe adequate, but not great. When you're honestly surprised that some of your pilots are less than enthusiastic about your creation of an alter-ego airline, it shows that you're out of touch with your people and unfamiliar with industry history. Frontier is reactive in its implementation of strategies, and is apparently unable to maintain operational integrity under adverse circumstances (eg. blizzards).

 

[Guitar Guy]

IMHO...Airlines run themselves out of business.

This is a little off-topic, but I'd be curious about your take on what happened to cause the demise of Legend out of DAL.

 

[F9 Driver]

Frontier pilots union to vote on new pact

The "cost-neutral" fouryear proposal freezes pay for a year and changes some work rules.

By Kelly Yamanouchi
Denver Post Staff Writer
DenverPost.com
Article Last Updated:01/04/2007 09:04:58 PM MST
Frontier Airlines' pilots union has reached a tentative agreement on a new labor contract with the company after more than a year and a half of negotiations.

The four-year agreement freezes pay for a year for most of Frontier's approximately 650 pilots, according to Frontier Airline Pilots Association president Jeff Thomas.

It includes future cost-of-living pay increases and future pay-scale reductions, making it essentially "cost-neutral," he said.

"We adjusted the overall rates, but nobody will be taking any pay reductions as a result of it," Thomas said. "... It certainly doesn't look at all like one of the contracts that came out of the bankruptcy filings."

The pilots union agreement adds a defined-contribution retirement plan and includes some changes in work rules and productivity improvements, Thomas said.

Frontier has "industry-leading pilot productivity" and one of the most competitive crew- operating costs in the industry, Thomas said.

The agreement also allows Frontier to use non-Frontier Airlines Pilots Association pilots for its Q400 turboprop operation.

But Thomas said the contract limits flying by other pilots relative to the size of its main Airbus operation, which is flown by the unionized pilots.

"The intent is that this flying should promote growth" of the mainline operation, Thomas said.

The leadership of the pilots union plans to put the tentative agreement up for an electronic vote by its members in mid-January.

Results are expected in mid-February, and the agreement would become effective around March 1.

Before accepting 11 percent pay cuts after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Frontier pilots had negotiated pay increases in 2001 that brought their base annual pay to a range from $33,000 to $125,500.

Staff writer Kelly Yamanouchi can be reached at 303-954-1488 or [email protected].

PS - Current book has guaranteed pay (75hrs/month) at 46,503 - 140,652, but IF the TA passes 1st year FO pay will go to 33K.
I LOVE how the media makes it sound like the TA has been accepted!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frontier, pilots agree on contract

By Chris Walsh, Rocky Mountain News
January 5, 2007
Frontier Airlines has reached a tentative agreement with its pilots union on a new four-year contract, roughly a year after the start of negotiations.
The agreement includes "significant improvements" to retirement benefits and helps protect work rules and jobs, said Jeff Thomas, president of the Frontier Airline Pilots Association.

"We're glad to have something. It's been a big effort for both sides," Thomas said.

The union represents about 650 Frontier pilots.

Denver-based Frontier declined to discuss specifics of the contract because pilots haven't voted. That process will begin in mid-January and last about a month. If approved, the contract will be implemented around March 1.

Thomas said wages essentially will stay flat, although there are some minor changes to the pay scale and future cost-of-living increases. The deal also includes some job protection clauses in the event of a merger.

Frontier will be able to strengthen its crew operating costs and pilot productivity, Thomas said, and use nonunion pilots for its new turboprop operation.

Denver-based Frontier has fared better in recent years than many large U.S. airlines, which have had to cut salaries and benefits to stay afloat. The carrier slashed pilot base pay and overtime in 2001 after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Since those cuts, though, Frontier pilots have received some pay boosts linked to productivity improvements, Thomas said.

The tentative agreement, he said, "doesn't look like contracts from some of the legacy carriers involved in the bankruptcy" process.

 

[PCL_128]

Pay freezes and scope concessions? What a deal.

 

[ferlo]

Duh, is it possible the pilot's are putting the airlines health ahead of their own immediate financial needs? Anyone here think those Dec snowstorms will put a dent in the meager cash reserves? I do, and so do the pilots'.

F9 needs all the help it can get to maintain viability in the next few years. JP has done an excellent job, but it's no secret why SWA is in Denver. They tried to cut the knees out from under US but the merger took care of that plan. SWA has changed their predatory model from siphoning off travelers from the former disfunctional legacy carriers, to one of trying to put the weaker carriers under.

imp:​

Dude, if one winter storm sends them into BK, then NO AMOUNT of pilot paycuts is going to save them. It's the same old BS from managment. If they're dumb enough to believe them then I guess they deserve to be paid accordingly. I have friends there and I know they're not dumb.

 

[OpenClimb]

Dude, if one winter storm sends them into BK, then NO AMOUNT of pilot paycuts is going to save them. It's the same old BS from managment. If they're dumb enough to believe them then I guess they deserve to be paid accordingly. I have friends there and I know they're not dumb.

Given that Company and Union representatives were on their way home from Washington, DC--after finishing up the TA--as the big snowstorm hit, I'd say the storm itself shouldn't be used as justification for a concessionary contract.

This is a concessionary contract. The question remains as to whether there is any objective, quantifiable NEED for a concessionary contract.

Saying that it would be easier for a business to make money if it paid its employees less is axiomatic--not justification for a concessionary agreement.

 

[ferlo]

Given that Company and Union representatives were on their way home from Washington, DC--after finishing up the TA--as the big snowstorm hit, I'd say the storm itself shouldn't be used as justification for a concessionary contract.

This is a concessionary contract. The question remains as to whether there is any objective, quantifiable NEED for a concessionary contract.

Saying that it would be easier for a business to make money if it paid its employees less is axiomatic--not justification for a concessionary agreement.

The "Need" as you put it is squarely on the shoulders of managment. The NEED is to pass all costs, plus profit margin, onto everybody and everything that gets put on their aircraft. If they insist on charging less than it costs them, then F'em. Let them go out of business. That goes for all airlines including my own. Staying afloat by screwing your employees isn't a business plan, it's a crime and it will continue exactly as long as we let them do it. It's time for us to interpret the RLA to our benefit instead of continually being victimized by it. This will be the litmus test for Prater and the "new" ALPA.

 

[Palomino]

This is a little off-topic, but I'd be curious about your take on what happened to cause the demise of Legend out of DAL.

Legend was an extravagant product with old airframes. they poured tons of money into the airline and never saw the returns.

-building a brand new terminal and parking garage on the other side of Love Field away from all of the mainline carriers was not smart.

-butting heads with the city of Dallas (Laura Miller-queen b@#ch) was not smart.

-diving into the turf of AA/SWA with in-your-face tactics was not smart.

Legend was a neat idea, but was ultimately led by incompetence. believe me...i wanted them to win. but playing hardball with AA rarely results in success.

 

[The Prussian]

This is a little off-topic, but I'd be curious about your take on what happened to cause the demise of Legend out of DAL.

I believe Herb said it best....to paraphrase: American came in and killed 'em.

 

[c9skytrain]

If this goes through, it will not be good news for Airtran pilot's negotiations.

 

[ferlo]

If this goes through, it will not be good news for Airtran pilot's negotiations.

It won't be good for ANY negotiations at EVERY airline.

 

[lowecur]

It won't be good for ANY negotiations at EVERY airline.

That's absolute bunk.

What does this have to do with any of the legacys?....nothing. Most of them will be making money hand over fist the next few years (unless the economy totally tanks or we get another major terrorist attack). If consolidation goes through, the numbers will be even higher, thus the bar will be raised even further for all legacy carriers.

AirTran's balance sheet is in pretty decent shape. They don't have the debt that Jetblue has and a merger with Midwest should help both carriers raise the bar a little.

Even if US/DL don't get together, I see consolidation happening. US would start talks with UAL, and then CAL would probably push US off the pedestal.
It's going to be musical chairs for the next 24 months, but I see a stronger US airline market which will be great for all pilots.

imp: ​

 

[PCL_128]

As usual, Slowcur doesn't have even the most basic understanding of RLA negotiations. Go back to your cubicle.

 

[lowecur]

As usual, lowecur doesn't have even the most basic understanding of RLA negotiations. Go back to your cubicle.

OK genius, suppose you educate me. Show us all where the RLA negotiations will totally negate anything I've said.

I'm always willing to listen and bow to your pontifications if they make any sense. You have the podium, Mr. Murray. Oh, I forgot....you'd be argueing with an Insurance Agent.

imp:​

 

[Guitar Guy]

I believe Herb said it best....to paraphrase: American came in and killed 'em.

So then Legend didn't run themselves out of business?

 

[ferlo]

That's absolute bunk.

What does this have to do with any of the legacys?....nothing. Most of them will be making money hand over fist the next few years (unless the economy totally tanks or we get another major terrorist attack). If consolidation goes through, the numbers will be even higher, thus the bar will be raised even further for all legacy carriers.

AirTran's balance sheet is in pretty decent shape. They don't have the debt that Jetblue has and a merger with Midwest should help both carriers raise the bar a little.

Even if US/DL don't get together, I see consolidation happening. US would start talks with UAL, and then CAL would probably push US off the pedestal.
It's going to be musical chairs for the next 24 months, but I see a stronger US airline market which will be great for all pilots.

imp: ​

Alright, usually I just ignore you but now you've proven yourself to be ignorant. My airline is starting negotiations in 4 days. Guess what managment keeps bugging our negotiating committee about...A Matrix. They want to know what matrix we are basing our wage opener on. A Matrix... for the uninitiated, is a breakdown of every competing carrier at all longevities and seat positions.

I'll say it again. ANY paycut at ANY airline lowers the Matrix and gives Managment REAL ammo to justify a concessionary contract. It was this same Matrix Kasher, (the arbitraitor) used to justify Lowering all FO pay at Alaska by OVER 30%. That cost every pilot at Alaska Airlines 80k. Why so much? Because the Legacy airlines BK's and concessions sent the Matrix thru the floor. Don't tell me that what happens at other airlines is inconsiquental to the rest of the industry. You're flat wrong.

 

[The Prussian]

So then Legend didn't run themselves out of business?

You're quite correct, but I wasn't referring to the ethics of other companies in my original statement.

 

[lowecur]

Alright, usually I just ignore you but now you've proven yourself to be ignorant. Now I see the difference between ignore and ignorant. My airline is starting negotiations in 4 days. Guess what managment keeps bugging our negotiating committee about...A Matrix. Ya gotta start somewhere. They want to know what matrix we are basing our wage opener on. A Matrix... for the uninitiated, is a breakdown of every competing carrier at all longevities and seat positions. OK.

I'll say it again. ANY paycut at ANY airline lowers the Matrix and gives Managment REAL ammo to justify a concessionary contract. I agree. It was this same Matrix Kasher, (the arbitraitor) used to justify Lowering all FO pay at Alaska by OVER 30%. That cost every pilot at Alaska Airlines 80k. It's all very complex and yet so simple. When the industry makes money, the pilot's matrix goes up, when they lose money it goes down. See that's not so hard. Why so much? Because the Legacy airlines BK's and concessions sent the Matrix thru the floor. Now do you think any of those unsustainable contracts that were built on the old matrix had anything to do with it? Don't tell me that what happens at other airlines is inconsiquental to the rest of the industry. You're flat wrong.

I think the answer is somewhere in between, but you don't sound like the kind of person that meets your carrier half way. I think US will probably keep their pilot groups separate till 2009, but if the airline is making a ton of money, don't you think that matrix will get turned on it's ear if an arbitrator is brought in to settle?......I think so. And so we will have a new beginning of the rising bar that will unfortunately get skewed in certain individual situations where the airline is not making the same money as some of the other carriers. It happens, but the bar will be on the rise again at some pt.

imp:​

 

[GuppyWN]

I disagree lowercur. Your analysis is the tail wagging the dog. Look at the AA guys. The company is profitable now but the pilots are still working for 30+% less than they were 5 years ago.

If you could re-adjust the matrix every year without fail it would be more representative. Also, at some point some pilot group has to raise the bar so the whole matrix feeds on itself with upward momentum. That still isn't the case.

Gup

 

[lowecur]

I disagree lowercur. Your analysis is the tail wagging the dog. Look at the AA guys. The company is profitable now but the pilots are still working for 30+% less than they were 5 years ago. When the industry is in survival mode, the matrix will always respond to the downside much quicker. Even with the matrix lower, I doubt SWAPA is going to want anything less than COLA and QOL changes. So the matrix will not affect them as much as the other poorly managed companies.

If you could re-adjust the matrix every year without fail it would be more representative. Wouldn't that be a neat trick. Also, at some point some pilot group has to raise the bar so the whole matrix feeds on itself with upward momentum. That still isn't the case.

Gup

When you have the convulsions that have occured, well managed companies with pilot groups that work in concert with management for stability generally will have a much smoother transition as the industry changes. I think SWA has been a great example of this in the past. Whether they will continue to see the same success will be determined in the next few years.

imp:​

 

[terryhfly]

This contract is going to suck azz!!! You know it and I know it. I only hope that we have enough pilots to vote no and tell them (company and union) that we have had enough. But, as you know that won't happen and we will cave, just like every other pilot union. Long live UPS and FEDEX, guardians of the pilot contract.

 

[myq2u]

Q to Lowecur

Lowecur – I’m confused, if you do indeed sell insurance for a living, why are you posting on an airline pilot forum?

Is it the profession you always dreamed of and this is as close you’ll ever get to it?

Or do you own some airline shares? ...Yes, I know that Embraer is the stock to buy! Well, not really, but ...

Or is it something else?

I’m not trying to pick a fight, just really curious - why do you like to stir things up on an airline message board?

Isn’t there some kind of geicoinfo.com (is that you and is it the airplane you just "flew in"?), or cubicle-pro.com (or is that you???), or even IsellinsuranceBUTwishIwasApilot.com message board for you to join?

So really, what’s the deal? Why do you care?

Btw, some of your posts are pretty entertaining...

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur – I’m confused, if you do indeed sell insurance for a living, why are you posting on an airline pilot forum? Good question, and it has been asked before by Fly Boeingjets. I have always had a luv of the airline business per say, not of being a pilot. As a kid I used to visit my local airport to watch operations, but when it came time to go work I chose the family business....go figure. This forum offers me a good platform to release some of my thoughts that transcend serious and humorous subjects alike. I know this is pious business to many of the posters but I have a devilish side that likes to push buttons and promote discussion....go figure. Is it the profession you always dreamed of and this is as close you’ll ever get to it? No.

Or do you own some airline shares? ...Off and on, I buy and sell some airline shares. Yes, I know that Embraer is the stock to buy! Well, not really, but ...

Or is it something else?

I’m not trying to pick a fight, just really curious - why do you like to stir things up on an airline message board? Why not, it lets people vent. I'm a big boy and I can take it, so it's probably better than taking it out on the wife or dog. They actually reply to me as though I'm mgt and that is entertaining as well as informative. I've learned alot. The egos involved between the pilots/mgt boarders on insanity, and that's what makes this business so interesting.

Isn’t there some kind of geicoinfo.com (is that you and is it the airplane you just "flew in"?), or cubicle-pro.com (or is that you???), or even IsellinsuranceBUTwishIwasApilot.com message board for you to join? I've been told to head over to airliners.net, which I have. I've had a few spirited conversations over there, but this board is what makes the business tick.

So really, what’s the deal? Why do you care?

Btw, some of your posts are pretty entertaining...

Most posters don't take me too serious, although there are a few that can, particularly if they've been pounding down a couple prior to logging on.

imp:​

 

[bustinmins]

First off - Congrats to the Frontier pilots for getting a tenative agreement. If you don't like it - don't vote for it.

Best of luck,

XYV

 

[Angus]

Good question, and it has been asked before by Fly Boeingjets. I have always had a luv of the airline business per say, not of being a pilot. As a kid I used to visit my local airport to watch operations, but when it came time to go work I chose the family business....go figure. This forum offers me a good platform to release some of my thoughts that transcend serious and humorous subjects alike. I know this is pious business to many of the posters but I have a devilish side that likes to push buttons and promote discussion....go figure

Most posters don't take me too serious, although there are a few that can, particularly if they've been pounding down a couple prior to logging on.

LOL! Yeah right....

Lets see.... you are supposedly not a Pilot, you just watched airplanes take off and land as a kid, yet live the majority of your entire waking life parked on the internet on several Airline Pilot forums posting nonstop..... accumulating almost 2000 posts on Flightinfo alone.


Its obvious to anyone with 1/2 a brain that you are in fact an Airline Pilot.... you are just too much of a psycho coward to admit it. Probably because you live in a fantasy world.... wait.... no probably.... you DO live in a fantasy world by living online..... with a 'masked' identity no less. No I thinks its simply because you are spineless.

Let me guess... based on all your emotion involving Jetblue or Delta you're a Pilot for one or the other? My guess is Delta. $100.00 bucks says you are not only a Pilot, but have another name that you post under as well..... like General Lee OR FlyDeltasJets, or with another 1000+ posts to their credit. :smash:

Good thing you sell insurance on the side.... as much as you live here on the internet, you'd need a second income (especially if you are a 190 Captain at Jetblue)...:laugh:

Oh well.... go back to your 'pretending to just love airplanes' mantra and keep hiding your background and pontificating on all things Jetblue and Delta..... you are still a moron.

 

[Fly High]

I know that for guys that work at Frontier, a new TA might have positives and negatives and some guys may be happy with it and some might think it is gonna stink and differing views is part of life. I am a guy that has been trying to get on with Frontier for a long time now and I have to keep believing /hoping that I will get an interview at some point in time. I would be happy to work for Frontier, new TA or not.

 

[crashpad]

I have to keep believing /hoping that I will get an interview at some point in time. I would be happy to work for Frontier, new TA or not.

And don't forget "praying", because you obviously are willing to cut infront of your fellow pilots as the sacrificial lamb who will do it for less.
I remember guys like you in the 1980s' who offered to flight instruct for free just to build hours.
Why don't you fly a caravan in Somali to save the starving if you believe the crap you're shoveling.
Dick 2:10"

 

[pipe]

I know that for guys that work at Frontier, a new TA might have positives and negatives and some guys may be happy with it and some might think it is gonna stink and differing views is part of life. I am a guy that has been trying to get on with Frontier for a long time now and I have to keep believing /hoping that I will get an interview at some point in time. I would be happy to work for Frontier, new TA or not.

The B-scale will look great to you for about six months - then you'll be PO'ed, wondering how that situation came about. You'll need only to go to the mirror for the answer.

PIPE