Frontier reaches TA with pilots

[The Prussian]

This is a little off-topic, but I'd be curious about your take on what happened to cause the demise of Legend out of DAL.

I believe Herb said it best....to paraphrase: American came in and killed 'em.

 

[c9skytrain]

If this goes through, it will not be good news for Airtran pilot's negotiations.

 

[ferlo]

If this goes through, it will not be good news for Airtran pilot's negotiations.

It won't be good for ANY negotiations at EVERY airline.

 

[lowecur]

It won't be good for ANY negotiations at EVERY airline.

That's absolute bunk.

What does this have to do with any of the legacys?....nothing. Most of them will be making money hand over fist the next few years (unless the economy totally tanks or we get another major terrorist attack). If consolidation goes through, the numbers will be even higher, thus the bar will be raised even further for all legacy carriers.

AirTran's balance sheet is in pretty decent shape. They don't have the debt that Jetblue has and a merger with Midwest should help both carriers raise the bar a little.

Even if US/DL don't get together, I see consolidation happening. US would start talks with UAL, and then CAL would probably push US off the pedestal.
It's going to be musical chairs for the next 24 months, but I see a stronger US airline market which will be great for all pilots.

imp: ​

 

[PCL_128]

As usual, Slowcur doesn't have even the most basic understanding of RLA negotiations. Go back to your cubicle.

 

[lowecur]

As usual, lowecur doesn't have even the most basic understanding of RLA negotiations. Go back to your cubicle.

OK genius, suppose you educate me. Show us all where the RLA negotiations will totally negate anything I've said.

I'm always willing to listen and bow to your pontifications if they make any sense. You have the podium, Mr. Murray. Oh, I forgot....you'd be argueing with an Insurance Agent.

imp:​

 

[Guitar Guy]

I believe Herb said it best....to paraphrase: American came in and killed 'em.

So then Legend didn't run themselves out of business?

 

[ferlo]

That's absolute bunk.

What does this have to do with any of the legacys?....nothing. Most of them will be making money hand over fist the next few years (unless the economy totally tanks or we get another major terrorist attack). If consolidation goes through, the numbers will be even higher, thus the bar will be raised even further for all legacy carriers.

AirTran's balance sheet is in pretty decent shape. They don't have the debt that Jetblue has and a merger with Midwest should help both carriers raise the bar a little.

Even if US/DL don't get together, I see consolidation happening. US would start talks with UAL, and then CAL would probably push US off the pedestal.
It's going to be musical chairs for the next 24 months, but I see a stronger US airline market which will be great for all pilots.

imp: ​

Alright, usually I just ignore you but now you've proven yourself to be ignorant. My airline is starting negotiations in 4 days. Guess what managment keeps bugging our negotiating committee about...A Matrix. They want to know what matrix we are basing our wage opener on. A Matrix... for the uninitiated, is a breakdown of every competing carrier at all longevities and seat positions.

I'll say it again. ANY paycut at ANY airline lowers the Matrix and gives Managment REAL ammo to justify a concessionary contract. It was this same Matrix Kasher, (the arbitraitor) used to justify Lowering all FO pay at Alaska by OVER 30%. That cost every pilot at Alaska Airlines 80k. Why so much? Because the Legacy airlines BK's and concessions sent the Matrix thru the floor. Don't tell me that what happens at other airlines is inconsiquental to the rest of the industry. You're flat wrong.

 

[The Prussian]

So then Legend didn't run themselves out of business?

You're quite correct, but I wasn't referring to the ethics of other companies in my original statement.

 

[lowecur]

Alright, usually I just ignore you but now you've proven yourself to be ignorant. Now I see the difference between ignore and ignorant. My airline is starting negotiations in 4 days. Guess what managment keeps bugging our negotiating committee about...A Matrix. Ya gotta start somewhere. They want to know what matrix we are basing our wage opener on. A Matrix... for the uninitiated, is a breakdown of every competing carrier at all longevities and seat positions. OK.

I'll say it again. ANY paycut at ANY airline lowers the Matrix and gives Managment REAL ammo to justify a concessionary contract. I agree. It was this same Matrix Kasher, (the arbitraitor) used to justify Lowering all FO pay at Alaska by OVER 30%. That cost every pilot at Alaska Airlines 80k. It's all very complex and yet so simple. When the industry makes money, the pilot's matrix goes up, when they lose money it goes down. See that's not so hard. Why so much? Because the Legacy airlines BK's and concessions sent the Matrix thru the floor. Now do you think any of those unsustainable contracts that were built on the old matrix had anything to do with it? Don't tell me that what happens at other airlines is inconsiquental to the rest of the industry. You're flat wrong.

I think the answer is somewhere in between, but you don't sound like the kind of person that meets your carrier half way. I think US will probably keep their pilot groups separate till 2009, but if the airline is making a ton of money, don't you think that matrix will get turned on it's ear if an arbitrator is brought in to settle?......I think so. And so we will have a new beginning of the rising bar that will unfortunately get skewed in certain individual situations where the airline is not making the same money as some of the other carriers. It happens, but the bar will be on the rise again at some pt.

imp:​

 

[GuppyWN]

I disagree lowercur. Your analysis is the tail wagging the dog. Look at the AA guys. The company is profitable now but the pilots are still working for 30+% less than they were 5 years ago.

If you could re-adjust the matrix every year without fail it would be more representative. Also, at some point some pilot group has to raise the bar so the whole matrix feeds on itself with upward momentum. That still isn't the case.

Gup

 

[lowecur]

I disagree lowercur. Your analysis is the tail wagging the dog. Look at the AA guys. The company is profitable now but the pilots are still working for 30+% less than they were 5 years ago. When the industry is in survival mode, the matrix will always respond to the downside much quicker. Even with the matrix lower, I doubt SWAPA is going to want anything less than COLA and QOL changes. So the matrix will not affect them as much as the other poorly managed companies.

If you could re-adjust the matrix every year without fail it would be more representative. Wouldn't that be a neat trick. Also, at some point some pilot group has to raise the bar so the whole matrix feeds on itself with upward momentum. That still isn't the case.

Gup

When you have the convulsions that have occured, well managed companies with pilot groups that work in concert with management for stability generally will have a much smoother transition as the industry changes. I think SWA has been a great example of this in the past. Whether they will continue to see the same success will be determined in the next few years.

imp:​

 

[terryhfly]

This contract is going to suck azz!!! You know it and I know it. I only hope that we have enough pilots to vote no and tell them (company and union) that we have had enough. But, as you know that won't happen and we will cave, just like every other pilot union. Long live UPS and FEDEX, guardians of the pilot contract.

 

[myq2u]

Q to Lowecur

Lowecur – I’m confused, if you do indeed sell insurance for a living, why are you posting on an airline pilot forum?

Is it the profession you always dreamed of and this is as close you’ll ever get to it?

Or do you own some airline shares? ...Yes, I know that Embraer is the stock to buy! Well, not really, but ...

Or is it something else?

I’m not trying to pick a fight, just really curious - why do you like to stir things up on an airline message board?

Isn’t there some kind of geicoinfo.com (is that you and is it the airplane you just "flew in"?), or cubicle-pro.com (or is that you???), or even IsellinsuranceBUTwishIwasApilot.com message board for you to join?

So really, what’s the deal? Why do you care?

Btw, some of your posts are pretty entertaining...

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur – I’m confused, if you do indeed sell insurance for a living, why are you posting on an airline pilot forum? Good question, and it has been asked before by Fly Boeingjets. I have always had a luv of the airline business per say, not of being a pilot. As a kid I used to visit my local airport to watch operations, but when it came time to go work I chose the family business....go figure. This forum offers me a good platform to release some of my thoughts that transcend serious and humorous subjects alike. I know this is pious business to many of the posters but I have a devilish side that likes to push buttons and promote discussion....go figure. Is it the profession you always dreamed of and this is as close you’ll ever get to it? No.

Or do you own some airline shares? ...Off and on, I buy and sell some airline shares. Yes, I know that Embraer is the stock to buy! Well, not really, but ...

Or is it something else?

I’m not trying to pick a fight, just really curious - why do you like to stir things up on an airline message board? Why not, it lets people vent. I'm a big boy and I can take it, so it's probably better than taking it out on the wife or dog. They actually reply to me as though I'm mgt and that is entertaining as well as informative. I've learned alot. The egos involved between the pilots/mgt boarders on insanity, and that's what makes this business so interesting.

Isn’t there some kind of geicoinfo.com (is that you and is it the airplane you just "flew in"?), or cubicle-pro.com (or is that you???), or even IsellinsuranceBUTwishIwasApilot.com message board for you to join? I've been told to head over to airliners.net, which I have. I've had a few spirited conversations over there, but this board is what makes the business tick.

So really, what’s the deal? Why do you care?

Btw, some of your posts are pretty entertaining...

Most posters don't take me too serious, although there are a few that can, particularly if they've been pounding down a couple prior to logging on.

imp:​

 

[bustinmins]

First off - Congrats to the Frontier pilots for getting a tenative agreement. If you don't like it - don't vote for it.

Best of luck,

XYV

 

[Angus]

Good question, and it has been asked before by Fly Boeingjets. I have always had a luv of the airline business per say, not of being a pilot. As a kid I used to visit my local airport to watch operations, but when it came time to go work I chose the family business....go figure. This forum offers me a good platform to release some of my thoughts that transcend serious and humorous subjects alike. I know this is pious business to many of the posters but I have a devilish side that likes to push buttons and promote discussion....go figure

Most posters don't take me too serious, although there are a few that can, particularly if they've been pounding down a couple prior to logging on.

LOL! Yeah right....

Lets see.... you are supposedly not a Pilot, you just watched airplanes take off and land as a kid, yet live the majority of your entire waking life parked on the internet on several Airline Pilot forums posting nonstop..... accumulating almost 2000 posts on Flightinfo alone.


Its obvious to anyone with 1/2 a brain that you are in fact an Airline Pilot.... you are just too much of a psycho coward to admit it. Probably because you live in a fantasy world.... wait.... no probably.... you DO live in a fantasy world by living online..... with a 'masked' identity no less. No I thinks its simply because you are spineless.

Let me guess... based on all your emotion involving Jetblue or Delta you're a Pilot for one or the other? My guess is Delta. $100.00 bucks says you are not only a Pilot, but have another name that you post under as well..... like General Lee OR FlyDeltasJets, or with another 1000+ posts to their credit. :smash:

Good thing you sell insurance on the side.... as much as you live here on the internet, you'd need a second income (especially if you are a 190 Captain at Jetblue)...:laugh:

Oh well.... go back to your 'pretending to just love airplanes' mantra and keep hiding your background and pontificating on all things Jetblue and Delta..... you are still a moron.

 

[Fly High]

I know that for guys that work at Frontier, a new TA might have positives and negatives and some guys may be happy with it and some might think it is gonna stink and differing views is part of life. I am a guy that has been trying to get on with Frontier for a long time now and I have to keep believing /hoping that I will get an interview at some point in time. I would be happy to work for Frontier, new TA or not.

 

[crashpad]

I have to keep believing /hoping that I will get an interview at some point in time. I would be happy to work for Frontier, new TA or not.

And don't forget "praying", because you obviously are willing to cut infront of your fellow pilots as the sacrificial lamb who will do it for less.
I remember guys like you in the 1980s' who offered to flight instruct for free just to build hours.
Why don't you fly a caravan in Somali to save the starving if you believe the crap you're shoveling.
Dick 2:10"

 

[pipe]

I know that for guys that work at Frontier, a new TA might have positives and negatives and some guys may be happy with it and some might think it is gonna stink and differing views is part of life. I am a guy that has been trying to get on with Frontier for a long time now and I have to keep believing /hoping that I will get an interview at some point in time. I would be happy to work for Frontier, new TA or not.

The B-scale will look great to you for about six months - then you'll be PO'ed, wondering how that situation came about. You'll need only to go to the mirror for the answer.

PIPE