Frontier reaches TA with pilots

[lowecur]

A 100% pay cut cannot drive WN from Denver. No, but it can keep the airline flying without having to seek BK or a merger partner in the near term.


.... Work for free, yea you are mgmt's dream.

How will you know until you try it?

imp:​

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur........you need to peruse the RLA my friend.

........The pilot's should have demanded COLA wage increases, and if they didn't get it they should start job actions......

That makes alot of sense it you are the new legacy guys/gals. You think COLA is going to be enough when US Air's contract is up?:laugh: I see Neeleman said that if the US/DL merger doesn't go through, consolidation amongst the legacy's will die on the vine. I see it getting past the creditors, but will the Feds want to get the ball rolling, or wait until the next downturn?

imp:​

 

[newnan]

slo cure, 4 replies and you choose mine to respond to first. I was looking for a little more wisdom from your crystal ball.

Working for free is charity and I'll save that for volunteering to help 60 and a day year old pilots that didn't plan well if I choose, not for a company I work for.

 

[lowecur]

Amazing,
Now whatever you get or do not get in your new contract is SWA's fault and not the fault of your own management or pilot group? Those 33 SWA flights out of DIA must really be kicking your butts. YGBSM!!!

I blame everything on SWA/FO. Incidently, I predict they will be up to 100 flts per day by 2010, and F9 will be making up their minds about BK or B6. At least it bought them some time to fight another day.

imp:​

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur-

1. Staying out of bankruptcy in the near term has never fixed a systemic problem in airline history - it just puts you in bankruptcy in the long-term instead. It gives you a chance to fight another day. Very important is todays world of unknowns.

2. If Potter needs to hide cash and assets for a quick trip through BK he now has a ready-made pigeonhole for it - Lynx. Ok, what's Lynx?

3. WN is not limited by the number of gates. They have, and will, build a whole new friggin' terminal themselves if they want gates. All in due time. DIA recently announced plans to add at least 8 gates to Concourse C by 2010, that could conceivably give SWA 13 by that time.

4. Large percentage changes in F9 pilot compensation can only swing the balance sheet one million dollars (maximum) in a quarter. If F9 had been coming up one million short of profit quarter after quarter I'd buy it. That, however, is not the case. Any reasonable kind of raise ain't gonna put the company out of business, but it may encourage other workers to seek their share (at a time when they can least afford it). JP was going to hold the line in negotiations, in which case the next step would be job actions. The in-house extended a fig leaf to show the company they will do their small part to remain viable.

5. I am a neutral, third-party observer. Volunteer to work for free for all I care. I think I'm in a position to look at it pretty objectively though. OK.

PIPE

.....

imp:​

 

[PCL_128]

You guys do realize that you're debating with a guy that sits in a cubicle and sells insurance all day, right?

 

[pipe]

I'd let it go but he may be the dumbest insurance salesman on earth.

PIPE

 

[lowecur]

You guys do realize that you're debating with a guy that sits in a cubicle and sells insurance all day, right?

Is it groundhog day, or did Bill Murray just show up?

Besides, insurance is a very noble profession and actually makes money unlike the airline business. If you ever need a recommendation selling Car Insurance, let me know and I'll speak with the geco.

imp:​

 

[lowecur]

I'd let it go but he may be the dumbest insurance salesman on earth.

PIPE

Pipe, now was that nice? You must have gotten some bad weed in that pipe you're smoking.

Oh well, the name calling always starts when you have no arguement.

imp:​

 

[PCL_128]

Besides, insurance is a very noble profession and actually makes money unlike the airline business.

And yet you keep dumping your money into airline-dependent stock. I think Pipe may be right about your intelligence.

 

[Shrek]

Well maybe he can "google".........Railway Labor Act then.........

lol

 

[maru657]

I have friends at Frnt; and SouthWest. Some think that the actions of SouthWest in DEN are defensive more than preditory. With Airtran and JetBlue nipping at their heels, Southwest is now possibly a target.

 

[TOGA]

1. LoweCur is not a pilot, much less a Frontier pilot. LoweCur, you have just enough knowledge to make yourself sound smart to someone OUTSIDE the industry.

2. Anything less than COLA raises equals pay cuts. A TA with pay freezes after two years without a raise would be a significant cumulative pay cut at a time when contracts are about to start going the other way.

3. Any scenario in which anyone other than FAPA pilots fly anything with Frontier on the side equals loss of growth potential and job security. One List is the only answer, and the company can still have whatever advantages they believe they'll reap by operating two companies.

4. Potter is not a great manager. Maybe adequate, but not great. When you're honestly surprised that some of your pilots are less than enthusiastic about your creation of an alter-ego airline, it shows that you're out of touch with your people and unfamiliar with industry history. Frontier is reactive in its implementation of strategies, and is apparently unable to maintain operational integrity under adverse circumstances (eg. blizzards).

 

[Guitar Guy]

IMHO...Airlines run themselves out of business.

This is a little off-topic, but I'd be curious about your take on what happened to cause the demise of Legend out of DAL.

 

[F9 Driver]

Frontier pilots union to vote on new pact

The "cost-neutral" fouryear proposal freezes pay for a year and changes some work rules.

By Kelly Yamanouchi
Denver Post Staff Writer
DenverPost.com
Article Last Updated:01/04/2007 09:04:58 PM MST
Frontier Airlines' pilots union has reached a tentative agreement on a new labor contract with the company after more than a year and a half of negotiations.

The four-year agreement freezes pay for a year for most of Frontier's approximately 650 pilots, according to Frontier Airline Pilots Association president Jeff Thomas.

It includes future cost-of-living pay increases and future pay-scale reductions, making it essentially "cost-neutral," he said.

"We adjusted the overall rates, but nobody will be taking any pay reductions as a result of it," Thomas said. "... It certainly doesn't look at all like one of the contracts that came out of the bankruptcy filings."

The pilots union agreement adds a defined-contribution retirement plan and includes some changes in work rules and productivity improvements, Thomas said.

Frontier has "industry-leading pilot productivity" and one of the most competitive crew- operating costs in the industry, Thomas said.

The agreement also allows Frontier to use non-Frontier Airlines Pilots Association pilots for its Q400 turboprop operation.

But Thomas said the contract limits flying by other pilots relative to the size of its main Airbus operation, which is flown by the unionized pilots.

"The intent is that this flying should promote growth" of the mainline operation, Thomas said.

The leadership of the pilots union plans to put the tentative agreement up for an electronic vote by its members in mid-January.

Results are expected in mid-February, and the agreement would become effective around March 1.

Before accepting 11 percent pay cuts after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, Frontier pilots had negotiated pay increases in 2001 that brought their base annual pay to a range from $33,000 to $125,500.

Staff writer Kelly Yamanouchi can be reached at 303-954-1488 or [email protected].

PS - Current book has guaranteed pay (75hrs/month) at 46,503 - 140,652, but IF the TA passes 1st year FO pay will go to 33K.
I LOVE how the media makes it sound like the TA has been accepted!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frontier, pilots agree on contract

By Chris Walsh, Rocky Mountain News
January 5, 2007
Frontier Airlines has reached a tentative agreement with its pilots union on a new four-year contract, roughly a year after the start of negotiations.
The agreement includes "significant improvements" to retirement benefits and helps protect work rules and jobs, said Jeff Thomas, president of the Frontier Airline Pilots Association.

"We're glad to have something. It's been a big effort for both sides," Thomas said.

The union represents about 650 Frontier pilots.

Denver-based Frontier declined to discuss specifics of the contract because pilots haven't voted. That process will begin in mid-January and last about a month. If approved, the contract will be implemented around March 1.

Thomas said wages essentially will stay flat, although there are some minor changes to the pay scale and future cost-of-living increases. The deal also includes some job protection clauses in the event of a merger.

Frontier will be able to strengthen its crew operating costs and pilot productivity, Thomas said, and use nonunion pilots for its new turboprop operation.

Denver-based Frontier has fared better in recent years than many large U.S. airlines, which have had to cut salaries and benefits to stay afloat. The carrier slashed pilot base pay and overtime in 2001 after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Since those cuts, though, Frontier pilots have received some pay boosts linked to productivity improvements, Thomas said.

The tentative agreement, he said, "doesn't look like contracts from some of the legacy carriers involved in the bankruptcy" process.

 

[PCL_128]

Pay freezes and scope concessions? What a deal.

 

[ferlo]

Duh, is it possible the pilot's are putting the airlines health ahead of their own immediate financial needs? Anyone here think those Dec snowstorms will put a dent in the meager cash reserves? I do, and so do the pilots'.

F9 needs all the help it can get to maintain viability in the next few years. JP has done an excellent job, but it's no secret why SWA is in Denver. They tried to cut the knees out from under US but the merger took care of that plan. SWA has changed their predatory model from siphoning off travelers from the former disfunctional legacy carriers, to one of trying to put the weaker carriers under.

imp:​

Dude, if one winter storm sends them into BK, then NO AMOUNT of pilot paycuts is going to save them. It's the same old BS from managment. If they're dumb enough to believe them then I guess they deserve to be paid accordingly. I have friends there and I know they're not dumb.

 

[OpenClimb]

Dude, if one winter storm sends them into BK, then NO AMOUNT of pilot paycuts is going to save them. It's the same old BS from managment. If they're dumb enough to believe them then I guess they deserve to be paid accordingly. I have friends there and I know they're not dumb.

Given that Company and Union representatives were on their way home from Washington, DC--after finishing up the TA--as the big snowstorm hit, I'd say the storm itself shouldn't be used as justification for a concessionary contract.

This is a concessionary contract. The question remains as to whether there is any objective, quantifiable NEED for a concessionary contract.

Saying that it would be easier for a business to make money if it paid its employees less is axiomatic--not justification for a concessionary agreement.

 

[ferlo]

Given that Company and Union representatives were on their way home from Washington, DC--after finishing up the TA--as the big snowstorm hit, I'd say the storm itself shouldn't be used as justification for a concessionary contract.

This is a concessionary contract. The question remains as to whether there is any objective, quantifiable NEED for a concessionary contract.

Saying that it would be easier for a business to make money if it paid its employees less is axiomatic--not justification for a concessionary agreement.

The "Need" as you put it is squarely on the shoulders of managment. The NEED is to pass all costs, plus profit margin, onto everybody and everything that gets put on their aircraft. If they insist on charging less than it costs them, then F'em. Let them go out of business. That goes for all airlines including my own. Staying afloat by screwing your employees isn't a business plan, it's a crime and it will continue exactly as long as we let them do it. It's time for us to interpret the RLA to our benefit instead of continually being victimized by it. This will be the litmus test for Prater and the "new" ALPA.

 

[Palomino]

This is a little off-topic, but I'd be curious about your take on what happened to cause the demise of Legend out of DAL.

Legend was an extravagant product with old airframes. they poured tons of money into the airline and never saw the returns.

-building a brand new terminal and parking garage on the other side of Love Field away from all of the mainline carriers was not smart.

-butting heads with the city of Dallas (Laura Miller-queen b@#ch) was not smart.

-diving into the turf of AA/SWA with in-your-face tactics was not smart.

Legend was a neat idea, but was ultimately led by incompetence. believe me...i wanted them to win. but playing hardball with AA rarely results in success.