Frontier pilots approve labor contract

[F9 Driver]

Still no answer about the Scope give-aways.

I wouldn't put too much stake in what our MEC congratulated you on... They're going to have a large number of F/O's here to contend with who are starting to look at longer upgrade times and will want their share of the pie.

Read my reply a little closer. I said, "Our management didn’t think they were operating outside of our old scope using Frontier Holdings ala Freedom/G0-jet, and we’d have to burn the place down to prove otherwise. Our new scope section and the second contract that binds holdings to scope were vetted by the best in the business, and time will tell if they were right." Like it or lump it, but these are my thoughts on the matter.

I'll disregard your MEC's input, but will still value all the other industry leadership that thanked us for standing our ground (your opinion not withstanding.)

Good luck in your mediation. We'll all be eagerly awaiting your industry leading contract.

 

[Shrek]

I wish F9 the best...........but fear the worst.....

 

[Lear70]

I don't like how it ended up, but our new first year pay is almost exactly average for the industry.

For what industry?

Again, look at the numbers I posted above. Only you and Spirit have that low of a 1st year pay. Every one of the OTHER LCC's / Majors is higher. The average is actually in the low 40's.

The Legacy carriers 1st year pay is lower, but you're not a Legacy carrier and neither are we. Don't know if you've noticed or not, but no one has been at Legacy carrier 1st year pay except for CAL for almost a decade now.

Sorry you don't like the math, but don't blame the messenger.

Good luck in your mediation. We'll all be eagerly awaiting your industry leading contract.

HAH! That's pretty funny... "industry-leading contract"... US? Not likely. I doubt anyone is going to match SWA's contract terms any time soon.

I simply don't think we'll lower the bar any. I know we aren't going to give up any concessions, including Scope, 1st year pay, or pay freezes, but then again, with 7 years of profitability and growing, plus our pay being in the bottom 3, our pilots our educated enough to see there's no need for that.

I simply don't understand where YOUR pilots had the need for any of that either...?

Thanks for the clarification on Scope. I have NO interest in giving up an INCH of scope. That's my upgrade and entire career on the line. If I can't upgrade, there's no reason to be here for a max of around $85k a year. I was within 3 years of making that where I was...

I certainly wouldn't agree to outsourcing ANYTHING... even 50-seater CRJ flying. There's many F/O's here who wouldn't mind flying a 50-seater again... at regular CA rates of course. If they want the airplanes badly enough, they can pay us a decent wage to fly them.

 

[colorado14hi]

Chase, what you said a couple of lines up is well stated. The times have and are changing and each pilot group must look after what is best for their airline. Those who continue the mantra of "lowering the bar" are just self-seelers who still think the "one for all" attitude still prevails in the 21st century. We are a nation of individuals who have the privilege of making our own decisions based on what is important to us. Time will be the ultimate judge.

 

[TAWS]

The majority stakeholder in F9 is Wexford Capital, the majority stakeholder in RAH is Wexford Capital.
There have been rumors around here, even from some feds visiting the FSI training center in STL, that RAH may be going after a DASH certificate. You guys have no idea how masterful the RAH mngt is at "interpreting" contracts - they didn't learn this for no reason!

2 years from now, you guys will wish that you could turn back the hands of time and many junior guys will bail as quick as they can. RAH and F9 mngt will swamp DEN with E-Jets and Q400s.

 

[Lear70]

Chase, what you said a couple of lines up is well stated. The times have and are changing and each pilot group must look after what is best for their airline. Those who continue the mantra of "lowering the bar" are just self-seelers who still think the "one for all" attitude still prevails in the 21st century.

Oh, and the "I'm looking after what's best for me and mine" attitude has done SUCH wonders for the airline industry thus far, huh?

FAR above what the industry was able to gain, say, in the 50's through the 70's and early 80's, right? Back when the unions were first formed and inherently understood that each contract worked off the previous carrier's and so on and so forth?

Yeah, that was a terrible time. We're MUCH better off now.

Guys like you can NEVER explain to me how you're "just supposed to worry about your own airline" when management AND YOUR OWN UNION OFFICIALS use OTHER AIRLINE'S CONTRACTS as a basis for bargaining.

So which is it? If you're just worrying about your own airline, why does everyone compare salaries to determine a fair wage now? Shouldn't you just disregard and work out your own salary based on... well, what would we base it on?

I feel like I'm trying to explain economics to a teenager.

Incidentally, what the heck is a "self-seeler"?

We are a nation of individuals who have the privilege of making our own decisions based on what is important to us. Time will be the ultimate judge.

In a nation that's tearing itself apart.

In a nation that has NO national heritage of where we began and what we stand for. What's our official language again? Spanglish?

In a nation that has the worst immigration problem in the world.

In a nation that has one of the worst debt loads in the free world.

But yeah, sure, all that free will has done WONDERS for our profession, too, right?

The only thing time is going to prove is that those who bought land in other countries such as Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean are going to prove the smartest of all of us.

Chase, I love ya buddy and I enjoyed getting to meet and hang out with you a couple years ago, but I gotta disagree with you on this one.

If all management teams were like Southwest, we wouldn't have this problem; but they're not.

As long as management will use other airline's contracts against us in the collective bargaining process, we simply MUST recognize that our professional lives are too intertwined to ignore the impact our contracts have on everyone else, not to mention the NEXT time we come to the table.

 

[GuppyWN]

F9 Driver, Yeah I remember those days. Actually, you couldn't drop anything anytime anywhere. He!!, come to think of it I don't think I ever even traded a trip with another pilot. Bids were on paper and the babes were hot!

I'm just disappointed that you guys are taking a step backwards instead of pressing ahead. Concensus says the industry is in a constant state of recovery.

Let me just put it this way. Why don't you find out (monitor) what the pay for then next 5 years is at the executive level.

I flew with an old F9 bud of mine last night. We spent the whole time talking about the old days and how we STILL miss the atmosphere. I wish nothing but the best for you guys.

Gup

 

[BigMeat]

I am absolutely stunned at your scope clause. 88 seats? Are you nuts! Your pay is just whatever, thats not what I am making a big deal about. You just let the cat out of the bag. Up to a hundred seat regionals will soon be the norm. This contract helped it right along. I truly hope that SWA kicks you in the nuts and then United absorbs you (So you still have a job). Im gonna puke!

 

[F9 Driver]

I am absolutely stunned at your scope clause. 88 seats? Are you nuts! Your pay is just whatever, thats not what I am making a big deal about. You just let the cat out of the bag. Up to a hundred seat regionals will soon be the norm. This contract helped it right along. I truly hope that SWA kicks you in the nuts and then United absorbs you (So you still have a job). Im gonna puke!

Well Thanks! I hope UAUA absorbs CAL too, and your furlough doesn't last too long.

Our scope allows for the lesser of 12 or 1/3rd (that's a max of 12) of all small jets to be larger (78 - 88 seat) than the EMB170. After talking to one of your senior guys who took early retirement from CAL and came to work at F9 I think you might want to direct some of your energy getting your own house in order rather than spitting at us on FI Meat Guy.

I'm glad there are so many folks out there who were willing to see us die on the cross for their perceived gain. Kind of like there is too much capacity in the market - except for yours of course.

Guppy WN seems friendly enough, but I think he was here when Mesa started flying for us as a quasi-legal "code share." Mesa turned into Horizon which was a dramatic improvement in service, but became a direct violation of our scope. The lack of response from FAPA to Horizon coming on board opened the door way back when. But most of our pilot group was too fat, dumb, and happy to see this as a threat. They just took their big checks and their 16 days off and enjoyed life. (while the rest of the industry took huge pay cuts, FARs as work rules, bankruptcies, and furloughs - lowering the bar for our negotiations - thanks!)

We are in containment mode now thanks to past practice, and those that think we have right on our side in making a stand now haven't been paying much attention to how labor is being thrown under the bus by our courts (thanks Bushy - You're doing a heck of a job!)

 

[BigMeat]

F9 Driver,

Dont get me wrong I did not imply that I wanted to see you furloughed and I also have a disdain for what Bush did for our labor groups. What I am sore about is that you would allow 88 seat rj feed. That flying is mainline not some punk @ss 21 year old that they are going to pay less than $25 an hour. If your thought is that I should worry my company instead of whats up at F9, well it affects us all. Cal has held the 50 seat line. I hoped to see others stop the outsourcing from where it really counts. Bankruptcys and hollow promises allowed these scopes to be deteriated that last several years but thats before we learned real quick that it is no real benefit to our pilot groups to allow this to continue. You pretty much reinvented the wheel and shot your junior peers in the foot. Those guys advancement just got cut short also. We forget too easily what we were compensated in these same size jets a decade ago! What was NWA making second year right seat DC-9? Something like almost 80k or more. How about the American guys flying the F-100 in the left seat. I know some of them were making over a 150k. That was about 10 years ago. Im not saying that we want it all back now, but lets start a trend in the right direction.

 

[F9 Driver]

Point taken Big Meat.

The rules of our little game were drawn and the hands delt long before our negotiators sat down at the table two years ago to play. The choice we had to make wasn't between having a contract with RJ feed and having a contract without RJ feed.

We should have negotiated for the addition of Horizon CRJ700s when that flying started, but didn't. Most of our pilots felt that Frontier needed the competitive advantage of starting thin routes with the RJs and backfilling with mainline as the route grew during a time when the industry was at its worst. This is exactly what management has done so far (without resounding success), so now as well as having past practice to overcome, most of our pilots are on board with management's plan.

We can pound our chests, point to the crystal ball, and tell everyone who'll listen that the industry is in recovery (unitll we invade Iran.) But untill our hopes come true in Denver... WE AREN'T/HAVEN'T BEEN PROFITABLE! It is tough to maintain your current ABOVE AVERAGE pay / QOL when your company is bleeding and your pilots (except the loud fringe) are not interested in backing up a more militant stance by the union. Telling management that their best plan to increase revenue and stop the red ink isn't acceptable to the help may come across as a bit off base.

We'll just have to disagree about the result of the feed our contract allows. We were "under fed" with the regional feed (seat departures) we had with Horizon (which, no matter how you and I like it is part of our business now.) The new deal gives us feed in porportion with the mainline comparable with other hub/spoke carriers. I'd love to have our pilots flying it at wages comparable to 318s, but the cost advantage that makes RJ feed worthwile comes partly from labor costs (a fact that isn't lost on our management.)

With the new contract now in place I guess we will both get to wait and see how this plays out. For both our sakes lets hope me and the majority of the Frontier pilots are right.

 

[Lear70]

We should have negotiated for the addition of Horizon CRJ700s when that flying started, but didn't.

Well said.

Telling management that their best plan to increase revenue and stop the red ink isn't acceptable to the help may come across as a bit off base.

Well, that would be THEIR problem, would it not?

An airline becoming profitable at industry average wages is fine. An airline becoming profitable by dropping or freezing those industry-average wages is NOT.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Management needs to find new ways to increase their net revenue. Stealing from their employees is NOT acceptable.

We'll just have to disagree about the result of the feed our contract allows. We were "under fed" with the regional feed (seat departures) we had with Horizon (which, no matter how you and I like it is part of our business now.) The new deal gives us feed in porportion with the mainline comparable with other hub/spoke carriers.

Wait a second, I thought you were a LCC. When did you become a legacy carrier with a hub and spoke operation that needed to be supplemented by RJ's? With a total pilot group of WHAT size at F9??!!

I'd love to have our pilots flying it at wages comparable to 318s, but the cost advantage that makes RJ feed worthwile comes partly from labor costs (a fact that isn't lost on our management.)

Labor costs make up less than 10% of the operating cost of an RJ. That's a fact. An increase of 50% in pilot wages alone accounts for about a 1% increase in CASM. Pilot wages are a VERY small piece of the pie.

We are in containment mode now thanks to past practice, and those that think we have right on our side in making a stand now haven't been paying much attention to how labor is being thrown under the bus by our courts (thanks Bushy - You're doing a heck of a job!)

OK, now it's my turn to tell YOU to stop being so dramatic. Not to mention stop blaming things that had no effect on a Yes/No vote.

First, labor is being thrown under the bus by our BANKRUPTCY courts. F9 isn't in bankruptcy last I checked. The non-BR carriers seem to be humming along quite nicely for the most part without being screwed by the legal system, the NMB notwithstanding.

Lastly, blaming your contract on Bush? Come on... that one belongs squarely in the YGBSM category. Last I checked, he didn't carry a union card, much less get to vote on your T.A.

With the new contract now in place I guess we will both get to wait and see how this plays out. For both our sakes lets hope me and the majority of the Frontier pilots are right.

Agreed. Just hate the precedent it sets for a LCC to allow Scope concessions.

That's a HORRIBLE road to start down...

 

[F9 Driver]

Hi Lear,

Just read that your AAI contract allows 70 seaters up to 100K MTOW.

Can you confirm?

 

[Lear70]

Hi Lear,

Just read that your AAI contract allows 70 seaters up to 100K MTOW.

Can you confirm?

Yup, up to 20% of the total ASM's which, at our current level of flying, means about 25 RJ's.

That was negotiated in our last contract; I wasn't here. Looking to eliminate that in the next contract.

The point is not to give MORE Scope concessions than you already have.

Your new contract does.

 

[bearcat]

That is an incorrect statement.

WHOAAA!! That was like an auto reply to an auto reply....

 

[Capi_Cafre']

Our management didn’t think they were operating outside of our old scope using Frontier Holdings ala Freedom/G0-jet, and we’d have to burn the place down to prove otherwise. Our new scope section and the second contract that binds holdings to scope were vetted by the best in the business, and time will tell if they were right.

The best language in the world isn't worth the paper it's printed on if you don't have the wherewithal to defend it. If a quarter of your group couldn't be bothered to show up for a vote I don't think your management's too worried about them showing up for a fight.

 

[F9 Driver]

Narcissistic much?

Yup, up to 20% of the total ASM's which, at our current level of flying, means about 25 RJ's.

That was negotiated in our last contract; I wasn't here. Looking to eliminate that in the next contract.

The point is not to give MORE Scope concessions than you already have.

Your new contract does.

Thanks for clarifying your position, and making sure everyone knows you think we screwed up.
I'll take it under advisement, find somebody who cares, and have them check with you first next time. uke:

 

[Green]

For the Frontier pilots now they can focus on securing their future, adding to the bottom line to the Company & to their own bank accounts and performaing professionally. Negotiations are never easy and stressful for all......I applaud your persistence and wish you all well.
.

I don't have a dog in this fight but if I was a frontier pilot in the lower 50% of the seniority list I would start looking hard into moving on. I think the item that is going to come back to haunt f9 pilots is losing future Ejets to the regionals. F9 is going to be looking to preserve capital in the years to come as SWA moves in and UAL gets back on its feet. Why would they order more 318's/319's when they can contract some ultra low cost regional to fly 88 seat E jets? The Q400's might have just been a distraction to get what they really want...E170/190's flown by non-mainline pilots.

Just out of curiosity what's up with the defined contribution plan? Sure it's near the top of the industry after nine years but the WHOLE point of a 401k is compound interest. You are much better off with 10% starting year 1 than 11% after 9 years. I would find out whoever was in charge of the negotiating committee and throw a week old crew meal in his flight bag the day after he goes off on vacation.....

I don't have anything against f9 pilots but I think to negotiate a concessionary contract as the industry is swinging into profitability is crazy...

 

[USMC319]

I don't have anything against f9 pilots but I think to negotiate a concessionary contract as the industry is swinging into profitability is crazy...

An industry swinging into profitability for some maybe. Frontier hasn't experienced the "big swing" yet, and to to boldly predict a definitive trend in one of the most volitile industries is naive.

This contract isn't great but it isn't bad and falls near the top of most every category when compared to other airlines for the same equipment. Of course nobody wanted this scope, but we have seen how "iron clad" scope clauses have worked for all the other airlines. The majors sold everyone out long ago by allowing the commuters to fly jets in the first place. If F9 exercises this RJ strategy then the airline will fail anyway so what the hell.

 

[frog_flyer]

colas of 1.5% and 1%

sweet! gotta keep it below the inflation rate, right?