Frontier pilots approve labor contract

[F9 Driver]

Welcome to the world of the clueless. Thanks for lowering the bar.

You're at Airtran and thanking us for lowering the bar?

 

[regionaltard]

Commuter policy in place, though language is a little fuzzy.

Fuzzy? I can assure you that the people on the other side of the table know exactly what it will mean to an arbitrator.

123 FAPA members who were eligible to vote did not.

Negotiated by amateurs, for amateurs. That sure sheds some light on the "theres no way we could have gotten......." line of reasoning.

 

[F9 Buff]

E-jets will not be flown by Frontier pilots.

Would they need an alter ego to fly any Ejets or would they just let something like Republic just grow to that amount? I would think they would be able to make more money by getting them on their own rather than contracting out the flying. That seems to be the thought process behind Lynx at least.

Sounds to me like the worst thing is the possibility of a large # of sub 100 seat jets that could take flying away from mainline.

 

[sweptback]

It is amazing how pathetic the scope is on that contract. I normally try to stay out of an other airline's business but that is a step backward for the industry. Keep in mind that once the genie is out of the bottle you can't put it back... I would have thought that we as a group had learned that by now.

 

[Lowpayisgreat]

Oh Boy

With more and more stupid pilots entering the majors everyday, I predict that in 10 years a 5 year captain will make 100K and fo 50K. Its coming, get out of pax flying, cargo is the only true way to make a living. All chance of quick upgrades at F9 are gone. They will fly the Q400 to 1200 miles and put the RJ's on every mainline route either late at night or early morning or both. I predict that no options for additional 318/319/320 will be exercised, you will see growth just not with your pilot force. I saw this coming and that why I'm at WN now. Not being cocky but this is bad. I've already had 3 F9 pilots call me and ask about WN. Good luck. WN and everyone elsa will have to lower the bar to keep up with this, Virgin, Skybus, and who ever else does this. Everyone better start building a part time gig to make money in the future, we will all need it.

 

[Lear70]

You're at Airtran and thanking us for lowering the bar?

Yeah, I gotta agree with him; definitely bar lowering.

Your 1st year pay rates are now lower than ours and close to poverty wages, your pay rates after that are somewhat higher but, due to the lower starting pay, your F/O's won't catch up until year 5.

Our B-fund being twice what your PROPOSED B-fund is from year 2 on helps keep our CA's close to yours on that side of the scale. You keep your 401k match but you have to put 10% of your salary in to get your 5% that matches our retirement.

Who there can spare 10% years 1-5 at those salary levels?

That's not even the real kicker. What makes this such a big step backwards is... it's a NEW T.A. !! Ours is approaching a DECADE old and in many ways is better than your NEW one??!!

I thought you were supposed to move FORWARD in pay and benefits, at least enough to keep COLA...? 5 years from now you'll essentially be making LESS in terms of spending power that you are now due to the pay freeze then 1% COLA?

1%??!!

How is that not lowering the bar? Or did I miss something in Bargaining 101?

Oh yeah, then you gave up Scope.

YOU GAVE UP SCOPE ??!!

Hasn't anyone there been paying attention the last couple decades to the Legacy carriers and the THOUSANDS of pilot jobs outsourced to regional affiliates?

My condolences to the junior new-hires who weren't vote elligible who will now have to endure the crap side of this T.A. for the next 7-10 years.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

This is about the logic of airline mgmt in general.

At airline X, mgmt wants to "improve" their airline.

They see Delta, NWA, UAL, etc., etc. just starting to hire again for the first time in years. Their brilliant plan is to ask the pilots for lower wages. They're thinking, "Wow, if we lower our new-hire wages, we'll get many more candidates with much better qualifications, since we'll have to start competing with legacy hiring now".

I'm very, very confused.
cliff

YIP

 

[nethan]

Pay issues aside, you guys got rocked on the scope.

 

[pkober]

No contract is going to be perfect. We won some and the company won some. Hightlights:

Pay scales
First year pay drops to $36 for new hires who start after March 2nd. All other fo pay rates stay the same. Cpts are frozen for 2 years and the scales are lengthened to 14 years. So called colas of 1.5% and 1% dos+3 and 4
Retirement
New dc plan year 3 is 2.2% goes up to 6% by year 9. 6% at DOS+2 at year 8 and DOS+4 is year 7. 401k matching is still 50% up to 10%. Both are now per pay check instead of end of year which the 401k was.
Scope
Unlimited turboprop operations of up to 78 seats
Small jets 1 to 2 ratio for current mainline aircraft and 1 to 1 for new aircraft after 03/01/07. There are weight limits and other stuff to limit the size but basically 1/3 can be up to 88 seats the others are limited to 78 seats.
The rest of the scope is now with Frontier Holdings.
Our successorship and merger protection language is greatly strengthed and expanded.
Other changes
Long call reserve 12 hours, medium of 8 hrs and short call 2 hrs
Commuter policy in place, though language is a little fuzzy.
Scheduling
daily open time drops limited to 8 trips on weekends and 12 on weekdays.
daily open time drops are now limited to 0930 the day prior.
My personal summary
Captain pay scales are still pretty good compared to every other airline. FO pay is about average. Of course we are not really getting any cola increases over the life of the contract. Our retirment I thought sucked until I saw how it stacked up against everyone else. We get 11% after 9 years and only 5 airlines are better with 2 being at 12 and 12.5%. The scope is were the arguments for and against got testy. If the company uses it to grow and feed Frontier airlines it is a good thing. If they use it to outsource our flying it is a bad thing. It all depends on CASM. I personally thought it was too much and voted so.
To all those who thought we would get the turbo prop flying when no other mainline has it is smoking crack. We would be competing against Mesa and there $50 cpts at segment pay on the dash 8s. As much as we wanted it we new we wouldn't be able to get it. Nor was it worth striking over.
My 2 cents

Where was your MEC on this clause. Did they actually push this? That could be a killer for you guys. I hope it's not, but talk about opening pandoras box.

This needs to be a wake-up call to everyone else in contract talks or getting ready for some. Don't ever vote for anything dealing with scope that allows someone else the opportunity to get "unlimited" flying at your airline.

We, CAL, just got burned by allowing turboprops under 79 seats, Q400, to be flown by a regional partner. Now we got 24 of these things coming here. That's a bunch of pilots who could have gotten hired at CAL. We lost first shot at jumpseats where ever these things will fly. In short, it's a bad deal.

88 seat RJ's being flown by some one else. YGTBSM !!

I hope it works for you guys.

 

[Porch]

Where are the F9 pilots?

Quiet... Ashamed? We want to hear your logic on why you voted this in!

 

[Capi_Cafre']

Where are the Frontier Pilots?

Quiet... Ashamed? We want to hear your logic on why you voted this in!

Voices muffled by sofa cushions?

 

[chase]

My point of view is slightly different than the apparent majority view....first all, the folks who are in the best position to evaluate this contract are the Frontier pilots themselves...persons who read summaries on forums or who aren't privy to the details while certainly free to comment on the topic aren't exactly the best judge of whether a contract was worth voting for in my opinion. Frontier pilots aren't flying under anyone else's rules and will now operate under these rules....the pilots at Frontier, each and every one of them evaluated the impact on their personal and professional lives and made a choice. Some might say that some contracts signed previously by airline groups that at the time were consisdered steps back, are now the envy of others.....I won't predict if that applies in this case but contracts are truly judged in the past tense often times vs. immediately being derided.

For the Frontier pilots now they can focus on securing their future, adding to the bottom line to the Company & to their own bank accounts and performaing professionally. Negotiations are never easy and stressful for all......I applaud your persistence and wish you all well. The industry is going through major changes, AirTran is in negotiations, ComAir, SWAPA and others soon. The hopes that all will do well enough to maintain job security, continued benefits for their members, profitability for their companies and good customer service to encourage more folks to fly, which helps us all I would think is everyone's desire.

It is difficult enough to negotiate for your own pilot group, to carry the burden of 50,000 pilots is a bit over-optimisitic and unrealistic I believe. This is an industry that has too many ups and downs....the hope would be in the future those can be minimized for the sake of our families and our health....again congrats to the Frontier pilots and to your leadership.

 

[gt1900]

Hey F9... Not to bash, but your first year or two at AAI are complete money makers. On reserve you get payed a 70 hour guarantee or 4 hours a day, which ever is better. In other words, if they call you for only 1 four day trip all month, and you average 7 hours of flight time each day, you get payed 3 hours each day over guarantee.. In other words, you just worked 4 days and your getting payed 82 hours. And since AAI works the crap out of their FO's its not uncommon to make over 100 hours of pay a month on reserve (more than you will make as a line holder).. You will make a ton more money at AAI your first year than you will at F9.. More than enough to make up for the chity 2nd year pay.. Plus at year 2 AAI pilots start to get the B fund of 10.5%.. So total compensation for year 2 with 85 hours of pay a month is around $62,000..... 90 hours pay (not uncommon at all) gets you up to almost $67,000 in compensation... Not good, but not horrible in todays times..

 

[Lear70]

Again, your math is a little off.

Just to clarify a couple of points:

With a 900 hour per year guarantee a new Frontier FO will, at 37/hour make 33,300 per year. Thats about 100/week less than an Air Tran new hire, and about 16,000 above the poverty line.

Purely incorrect.

I'm LIVING on that 1st year AAI new-hire pay. At $43 an hour on reserve I credit over 100 hours every month. The top 15-20 reserve lines are usually taken by senior F/O's who want the money. A lineholder will only credit between 85-90 on average.

That means I'm bringing home about $15,000 more than your 1st year new-hire. And that's also with 14-15 days off (there's a trick to reserve to still get good days off and credit over 100 hours a month here).

As a lineholder, that $6 more an hour times 80 hour (LOW) average, is $480 a month, or just shy of $7,000. That pays my car payment, if nothing else, and it's still a hell of a whack for your new-hires. uke:

Year two Air Tran pays 56/hr and we pay 64/hr.

Your new-hires still won't catch up to us until the end of Year 3 if you add both yours and our B-Fund into it.

We could get into a "whose is bigger contest", but the fact remains that you signed a contract which is concessionary for new-hires in exchange for questionable gains for the senior pilots.

You can't spin that any other way,,, I still don't understand WHY it had to be done? Frontier wasn't performing that badly financially??!!

And I welcome the non-voting new hires that get to live under the system that has evolved over the last five years to provide one of the best qualities of life in the industry even if some of them feel they are entitled by devine right to it.

Ummm... you lost me on this tangent.

Divine right?

WTF?

And for those out there who don’t want to come here for the low new hire pay I say don’t come. Take your skills and go elsewhere. If management has a tough enough time finding qualified applicants maybe they’ll raise it again.

I'm sure they will, if given a chance. You'll certainly lose a large number of the applicants with families; they can't afford to live on that 1st year wage, especially if they see all your growth funneled elsewhere thus killing upgrade opportunities.

Still no answer about the Scope give-aways.

Lastly, I don't know if you've paid much attention lately, but our MEC is having a little representational problem.

The Christmas Side Letter debacle added to the SAP Side Letter has caused a huge uproar here, combined with the unbelievably crappy NEW pay PROPOSAL DVD that came out has a lot of people talking recall.

I wouldn't put too much stake in what our MEC congratulated you on... They're going to have a large number of F/O's here to contend with who are starting to look at longer upgrade times and will want their share of the pie.

 

[atafan]

I just love how some of you guys bragged about coming to DEN and will put F9 out of business and then complain when they settle for a sub standard contract while the vultures are swooping in.

Just remember it's all about you.

 

[Lear70]

I just love how some of you guys bragged about coming to DEN and will put F9 out of business and then complain when they settle for a sub standard contract while the vultures are swooping in.

Just remember it's all about you.

Did I miss something in this thread?

Wouldn't want to wish anyone out of business, bad Karma.

 

[atafan]

I was referring to past posts when SWA was announcing growth in DEN and some took shots at Frontier fore telling their doom.

I'm just pointing out that sometimes you just can't win.....

 

[F9 Driver]

A re-post since the Mod's didn't like the last one.

Just to clarify a couple of points:

With a 900 hour per year guarantee a new FO at 37/hour makes 33,300 per year or about 16,000 above the poverty line, and about 104/week less than an Air Tran new hire.
The poverty level for a family of three is 17,170 for 2007. New hire pay isn’t great, but lets stow the drama.

Year two Air Tran pays 56/hr and we pay 64/hr.
Year three at Air Tran pays 61 and we pay 73.

Now as to us not moving forward I think you need to see where we’ve come from:

In 2001 we were paid pure salary for any line you were awarded no matter the value. You couldn’t drop trips since your pay was reduced at time and a half – (Remember those days Guppy WN?) A fifth year captain’s salary broken down to hourly was 111.55/hour. The senior guys took all of the open time at time and a half and the junior guys couldn’t add anything at all to their check. New hire pay worked out to be 42/hr – and I put in the 10% to get the company’s 5% match. AND WE WERE PROFITIBLE

In 2002, still salary, fifth year captain became 118/hour due to a LOA that gave us the average of our peer group’s pay. In 2004, still salary, fifth year captain jumped to 136/hr due to the same LOA, and junior guys still couldn’t change their lines. Shortly after this our peer group started lowering the bar, but our LOA was one way, and we kept the gains we made. STILL A LITTLE PROFITIBLE

In 2005 we switched to hourly. Fifth year captain pay became 137/hr. Monthly open time changed to being bid in rounds like vacation and was awarded throughout the seniority list. Daily open time (our own little ATM) was created, and was first come first served without respect to seniority. You can split trips to drop and pick up. Drop trips into opentime at straight time. PROFITIBLE – NOT SO MUCH ?

ALL OF THIS PROGRESS WAS MADE DURING THE TERM OF THE CONTRACT THAT WAS SUPERCEEDED YESTERDAY BY THIS NEW ONE!

We’ve more than doubled our retirement, kept the most flexible scheduling rules in the industry, maintained our pay, and cleaned up the language from OUR FIRST CONTRACT that was filled with little gems like “whenever possible,” and included more than 50 side letters all while losing money, adding airplanes and pilots, and expanding our route structure.

Our FAPA representatives went to the ALPA negotiating round table in DC a couple of weeks ago. They were congratulated for the great job they’ve done keeping what we had while making gains in many areas all while the company is losing money and the legacies are working under FAR rules. Yes Lear, your union officers congratulated our guys too, got a copy of our TA, and were planning to use it to better your stance. Under the new contract our top captain pay will be 160 in 2011.
Our management didn’t think they were operating outside of our old scope using Frontier Holdings ala Freedom/G0-jet, and we’d have to burn the place down to prove otherwise. Our new scope section and the second contract that binds holdings to scope were vetted by the best in the business, and time will tell if they were right.

And I welcome the non-voting new hires that get to live under the system that has evolved over the last five years to provide one of the best qualities of life in the industry even if some of them feel they are entitled to it.

And for those out there who don’t want to come here for the low new hire pay I say don’t come. If management has a tough enough time finding qualified applicants maybe they’ll raise it again.

 

[F9 Driver]

Thanks Chase. Well said as usual.

 

[F9 Driver]

Hey F9... Not to bash, but your first year or two at AAI are complete money makers. On reserve you get payed a 70 hour guarantee or 4 hours a day, which ever is better. In other words, if they call you for only 1 four day trip all month, and you average 7 hours of flight time each day, you get payed 3 hours each day over guarantee.. In other words, you just worked 4 days and your getting payed 82 hours. And since AAI works the crap out of their FO's its not uncommon to make over 100 hours of pay a month on reserve (more than you will make as a line holder).. You will make a ton more money at AAI your first year than you will at F9.. More than enough to make up for the chity 2nd year pay.. Plus at year 2 AAI pilots start to get the B fund of 10.5%.. So total compensation for year 2 with 85 hours of pay a month is around $62,000..... 90 hours pay (not uncommon at all) gets you up to almost $67,000 in compensation... Not good, but not horrible in todays times..

I didn't know that info. I guess if faced with the choice most would go to AAI based on the first couple of years alone. 67K aint bad at all.

I don't like how it ended up, but our new first year pay is almost exactly average for the industry.