"Frontier guys" Don't get Greedy!

[greenbayfan]

I agree with the above. The fears about ATA are also valid- but let's look at the differences:
ATA in my admitedly limited knowledge, was a successful charter company that branched out, with limited success, to passenger service. SWA didn't necessarily buy into ATA for anything other than gate space and slots.
F9 has a huge customer base that SWA is after- they don't need slots or necessarily more gate space- there's so much room there- they could do it on their own if they had to- the biggest gain is the customer base. It's a good fit culturally- and it will only add to wn to bring on the pilots-
throw in bond mccaskill and I think that the f9 pilots have a pretty good and secure future at Swa. Just have to get through the integration w/o bad blood.

Sorry, but you are wrong. F9 has the same number aircraft that ATA had at the time of the SWA investment, and you could have made the same point regarding customer base at the time of the ATA investment. ATA had international markets that SWA couldn't do (Mexico and the Carribean) as well as Hawaii, combined with larger market slot restricted airports, that seemed like they would be attractive at the time, making it appear from an outsiders view that the match would be a good one for both SWA and ATA. The pilots of ATA even bit on how attractive it looked giving up pay for the promise of future code share growth.

F9's customer base can be added just as easily if F9 is bought and killed as if they are alive. If customers in Denver are given the option of SWA or UAL when F9 is dead, SWA will win hands down....

 

[airlinepilot]

ATA and the possible F9 deal have very little in common. SW didn't attempt to acquire the employees or the aircraft (which had very expensive leases). This is totally different. If a deal is cut the F9 employees with part of each employee group (seniority list). SW only wanted the gates that ATA had. ATA also sold gates to Air Tran in Charlotte. Bottom line ATA's expensive leases coupled with their high debt load didn't make them an attractive target for anyone. Too bad...

 

[Cometman]

In is sad that F9 is in Chapter 11. SWA did not put them there and is not responsible for them. This is America and this is pure business. F9 should take the best offer on the table when it is offered. If SWA offers a staple, pay protection, base protection etc. then it will be up to them to decide whether it is better than the one Republic is offering. If they think Republic is better then go with it. Only time will tell which was the best choice. However, if you keep pushing for more you could lose everything. You need to know when to leave the table. F9 pilots are not entitled to anything from SWA. So, if SWA is offering you all this you only get one chance to accept it. F9 might have 50 aircraft but like it was said before, do you really think SWA will need 50 aircraft to take them over. After eliminating cities and dublicatge routes they might wind up needing 30-35 additional aircraft. That would mean excess crews. Just think if F9 was mixed with SWA and then SWA laid off pilots. Why in the world should SWA have to risk that? Because F9 thinks they are entitled to this. Take what you are affered and move on.

 

[greenbayfan]

ATA and the possible F9 deal have very little in common. SW didn't attempt to acquire the employees or the aircraft (which had very expensive leases). This is totally different. If a deal is cut the F9 employees with part of each employee group (seniority list). SW only wanted the gates that ATA had. ATA also sold gates to Air Tran in Charlotte. Bottom line ATA's expensive leases coupled with their high debt load didn't make them an attractive target for anyone. Too bad...

Even if SWA acquires the aircraft and employees to run the airline, doesn't mean that they will operate it as SWA. It could and probably will be operated as a seperate airline until such time that the aircraft can be sold. A320s are still in high demand worldwide......

 

[slaquer5]

F9 might have 50 aircraft but like it was said before, do you really think SWA will need 50 aircraft to take them over. After eliminating cities and dublicatge routes they might wind up needing 30-35 additional aircraft. .

FYI .SWA has an excess of 43 aircraft floating around the system. Take it for what its worth, and why they have been doing this is above my pay grade.

 

[ChinaClipper]

One thing is for sure.....

Regardless of their prospects, F9 is giving WN fits in DEN. The tea leave reading leads me to think that WN management sees PRECIOUS few growth options outside DEN and certainly NO PLACE were one deal can do so much competitive damage. There is NO other place you can, for the price, get all the goods as WN can get, with buying F9. WN is getting a rare gift, a MULTI win-win gift! For many of its individual components, let alone the whole enchilada, its good for WN, otherwise they WOULDN'T be in the running. Its a great real estate deal, by ITSELF. It is, by itself, a great way to take out a scrappy competitor, It is, by ITSELF a great advantage to kick UA in the shins. It is, by its self, a way to prevent a continued F9 presence, perhaps well-funded and growing, further complicating the largest hole in WN's map. Southwest is, for my money, the best run company in the business. They wouldn't be willing to "poison" their culture with outsiders if there wasn't a HUGE benefit to be had. If the deal goes down, the upside, over the next few years, could be colossal. WN is buying a front row seat, SPRING-LOADED to the fighting position, for a once in a decade chance to break out and RUN! UAL (BTW my former employer) appears to be about 2 years behind the competitive curve, WN about 5 years AHEAD. The short version is, buy F9 now and its the best 113 million dollar beat-down ever spent. The WN pilots, or Wall Street, has never lost betting against Southwest. I wouldn't bet against them either. All I know is that WN sees something BIG....actions are more revealing than words......and certainly a "benefit" to the current WN seniority list, wonder what its really "worth"????

 

[Cometman]

FYI .SWA has an excess of 43 aircraft floating around the system. Take it for what its worth, and why they have been doing this is above my pay grade.

Great. The point I ws trying to make wass that SWA will not need 50 aircraft to take over their routes. Especially after they get rid of the routes they have no intention to fly.

 

[The Victors]

Sorry, but you are wrong. F9 has the same number aircraft that ATA had at the time of the SWA investment, and you could have made the same point regarding customer base at the time of the ATA investment. ATA had international markets that SWA couldn't do (Mexico and the Carribean) as well as Hawaii, combined with larger market slot restricted airports, that seemed like they would be attractive at the time, making it appear from an outsiders view that the match would be a good one for both SWA and ATA. The pilots of ATA even bit on how attractive it looked giving up pay for the promise of future code share growth.

F9's customer base can be added just as easily if F9 is bought and killed as if they are alive. If customers in Denver are given the option of SWA or UAL when F9 is dead, SWA will win hands down....

You ATA guys need to let it go. I understand that you're bitter, but these 2 deals have nothing in common. ATA and F9 have nothing in common. I used to work for ATA. They had terrible customer service and even worse mgmt. That was their demise. F9 is a good airline with good customer service and loyality. Their demise has been cut throat fares in DEN and $150 oil.

 

[The Victors]

Regardless of their prospects, F9 is giving WN fits in DEN. The tea leave reading leads me to think that WN management sees PRECIOUS few growth options outside DEN and certainly NO PLACE were one deal can do so much competitive damage. There is NO other place you can, for the price, get all the goods as WN can get, with buying F9. WN is getting a rare gift, a MULTI win-win gift! For many of its individual components, let alone the whole enchilada, its good for WN, otherwise they WOULDN'T be in the running. Its a great real estate deal, by ITSELF. It is, by itself, a great way to take out a scrappy competitor, It is, by ITSELF a great advantage to kick UA in the shins. It is, by its self, a way to prevent a continued F9 presence, perhaps well-funded and growing, further complicating the largest hole in WN's map. Southwest is, for my money, the best run company in the business. They wouldn't be willing to "poison" their culture with outsiders if there wasn't a HUGE benefit to be had. If the deal goes down, the upside, over the next few years, could be colossal. WN is buying a front row seat, SPRING-LOADED to the fighting position, for a once in a decade chance to break out and RUN! UAL (BTW my former employer) appears to be about 2 years behind the competitive curve, WN about 5 years AHEAD. The short version is, buy F9 now and its the best 113 million dollar beat-down ever spent. The WN pilots, or Wall Street, has never lost betting against Southwest. I wouldn't bet against them either. All I know is that WN sees something BIG....actions are more revealing than words......and certainly a "benefit" to the current WN seniority list, wonder what its really "worth"????

We have a winner!

 

[Hpilot]

your proposal is a windfall.

Yup. Get ready for the ,"No we weren't close to liquadation. It's DOH or nothing" Sound familar.

 

[airlinepilot]

Give it up ATA....stop trying to poison the well for the F9 guys. No comparison between what F9 has done. ATA failed because of poor management, expensive leases and very limited customer loyality in conjunction to a declining charter business.

 

[Hpilot]

Regardless of their prospects, F9 is giving WN fits in DEN. The tea leave reading leads me to think that WN management sees PRECIOUS few growth options outside DEN and certainly NO PLACE were one deal can do so much competitive damage. There is NO other place you can, for the price, get all the goods as WN can get, with buying F9. WN is getting a rare gift, a MULTI win-win gift! For many of its individual components, let alone the whole enchilada, its good for WN, otherwise they WOULDN'T be in the running. Its a great real estate deal, by ITSELF. It is, by itself, a great way to take out a scrappy competitor, It is, by ITSELF a great advantage to kick UA in the shins. It is, by its self, a way to prevent a continued F9 presence, perhaps well-funded and growing, further complicating the largest hole in WN's map. Southwest is, for my money, the best run company in the business. They wouldn't be willing to "poison" their culture with outsiders if there wasn't a HUGE benefit to be had. If the deal goes down, the upside, over the next few years, could be colossal. WN is buying a front row seat, SPRING-LOADED to the fighting position, for a once in a decade chance to break out and RUN! UAL (BTW my former employer) appears to be about 2 years behind the competitive curve, WN about 5 years AHEAD. The short version is, buy F9 now and its the best 113 million dollar beat-down ever spent. The WN pilots, or Wall Street, has never lost betting against Southwest. I wouldn't bet against them either. All I know is that WN sees something BIG....actions are more revealing than words......and certainly a "benefit" to the current WN seniority list, wonder what its really "worth"????

I called it. Here it is. We are the ones that are the money makers. Gimme, Gimme, Gimme. Time for some popcorn.

 

[The Prussian]

IMO...this is an attempt by WN to avoid another Indy Air fiasco...a couple of years where low ticket prices negated the possibility of any profits in that area (BWI/IAD), until Indy finally had to exit stage left...a foregone conclusion that had been predicted from the start. The RAH deal would probably have a very similar effect.

As far as SLI goes...WN management prefers to let SWAPA find an agreeable solution. However, these solutions can sometimes be elusive. Case in point...in the Muse/Transtar deal, Herb had no problem initially in letting SWAPA integrate the Muse pilots into the seniority list...but when Muse pilots didn't like the terms of integration (driven by a couple of senior heavy-weights), balked in the eleventh hour and decided to go ALPA, Herb foresaw huge turmoil in the future, threatening labor tranquility, the teamwork and culture that he so valued. Therefore the deal was scuttled. With Morris, the situation was solved more amicably, and management went along with it.

These are my recollections, and subject to error, so if anyone else can correct my memories, please jump in.

 

[texman]

Regardless of their prospects, F9 is giving WN fits in DEN. The tea leave reading leads me to think that WN management sees PRECIOUS few growth options outside DEN and certainly NO PLACE were one deal can do so much competitive damage. There is NO other place you can, for the price, get all the goods as WN can get, with buying F9. WN is getting a rare gift, a MULTI win-win gift! For many of its individual components, let alone the whole enchilada, its good for WN, otherwise they WOULDN'T be in the running. Its a great real estate deal, by ITSELF. It is, by itself, a great way to take out a scrappy competitor, It is, by ITSELF a great advantage to kick UA in the shins. It is, by its self, a way to prevent a continued F9 presence, perhaps well-funded and growing, further complicating the largest hole in WN's map. Southwest is, for my money, the best run company in the business. They wouldn't be willing to "poison" their culture with outsiders if there wasn't a HUGE benefit to be had. If the deal goes down, the upside, over the next few years, could be colossal. WN is buying a front row seat, SPRING-LOADED to the fighting position, for a once in a decade chance to break out and RUN! UAL (BTW my former employer) appears to be about 2 years behind the competitive curve, WN about 5 years AHEAD. The short version is, buy F9 now and its the best 113 million dollar beat-down ever spent. The WN pilots, or Wall Street, has never lost betting against Southwest. I wouldn't bet against them either. All I know is that WN sees something BIG....actions are more revealing than words......and certainly a "benefit" to the current WN seniority list, wonder what its really "worth"????

Hey give your self some credit. The f9 people won't poison the culture, flown on F9 to much as a paid passenger to say it will. After it is all said and done there will be a little bit of anger, but I think WN does have some big plans that require just more that 50 airplanes and good people. Gary has been looking at you guys for a long time. Rah is apart of the deal too. They are making it sound as if it is a all out war to see who is going to get F9. Rah just needs money to help Midwest deal out. If it was all out war to see who get's f9 then WN would of threw down some more cash. The only thing I am worried about is Lynx. I hope that doesn't turn into a RJ feed via Rah. Just my thoughts.

 

[Tristar]

Give it up ATA....stop trying to poison the well for the F9 guys. No comparison between what F9 has done. ATA failed because of poor management, expensive leases and very limited customer loyality in conjunction to a declining charter business.

Wrong. Not saying those items didn't contribute, but they are only the tip of the iceberg. Buy hey, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

I sincerely hope things go much better for F9 than they did for us. I'm not optimistic given that less than 1% of ATA pilots were hired by WN, and not many more than that even given interviews. I'd still like to know why that happened (more more aptly, didn't happen), but that is a topic for a different thread.

 

[greenbayfan]

Give it up ATA....stop trying to poison the well for the F9 guys. No comparison between what F9 has done. ATA failed because of poor management, expensive leases and very limited customer loyality in conjunction to a declining charter business.

So, what's the reason F9 is in BK? Good management and unlimited customer loyalty? Wow you are in denial.....

 

[StaySeated]

10 pages, 136 posts, and everyone is still saying the same thing. Not an effective method of communication if you ask me.

No one has even seen a proposal yet, but we all seem to have the answer.

I, for one, am done going round and round. To my friends at SWA, I wish you the best of luck regardless of the outcome of this auction. Hopefully this chapter will end on a positive note, but I am not holding my breath.

Cheers.

 

[FDJ2]

10 pages, 136 posts, and everyone is still saying the same thing. Not an effective method of communication if you ask me.

10 pages, that's nothing. Wait till this thing gets to arbitration, where it will end up if SWA wins the bid and both sides can't negotiate a list, you'll see 3000 pages of testimony with everyone is saying the same thing.

I hope for the sake of all the pilots at SWA and Frontier that you all work this thing out amicably and arrive at a negotiated agreement that is fair and equitable to all, it will be better than what will come out of arbitration.

 

[airlinepilot]

Talked to a Dal Capt today in PHX. He said he talked with the Dal Dom Rep and they had asked the People Dept to print all Apps with current Frontier pilots. SWAPA has 450+ names of pilots who want to work for SWA. Guess their wish could come true but not as a new hire...more $$$$

 

[waveflyer]

That sounds like BS- I think it would be reasonable to expect those names are kept private- it's confidential