"Frontier guys" Don't get Greedy!

[FNG320]

What everyone seems to forget is that the SWA press releases talk about "hiring" Frontier employees as SWA gains 737 and Airbus' are sold. If it "hiring" then all employees start at the bottom with zero seniority and 1st year pay.

That is why this would be worse that when Morris was purchased. They were stapled but kept thier longevity(pay protection) but their new seniority put them below all SWA pilots.

By operating Frontier as a separate airline, they can slowly bleed them dry of assets, people, routes, gates, etc. By operating as a separte airline, they do not have to integrate the pilots or other work groups. If enough Frontier pilots/employees do not join SWA, they will just hire off of the street with the same results. One airline grows, one airline fades away......

This will eliminate any any road block from SWAPA as there is no "Merger". There would be nothing to stop it from SWAs side and nothing that FAPA could do.

The only real roadblock I see is DOJ/DOT and the large overlap that SWA has created by going into DEN. In the past, they have prevented megers/buyouts when there have been large overlaps in service. This purchase (following published plans) would be a reduction in competion on these margets/routes and most likely would cause them to no approve the purchase (merger or not).

Just my opinion......

FNG

 

[Cometman]

I think they will offer a staple and to encourage the F9 pilots to agree they will throw in the pay freeze. Since it will take time for SWA to get rid of the AB and replace them with the 737 it only makes sense to keep them on. As long as they have their SWA number they can come over as each AB leaves and replaced with a 737. The Denver Base lock will help them in the transition. It will not hurt SWA since they cannot fly the AB. That will be more than any F9 would expect. Remember, they are being auctioned off. They could be out on the street. An F9 Captain can stay until the last AB is gone and then move over the 737. He will have his number already so he will not lose anything.

That is assuming they accept it to close the deal. If they cannot agree then it will be up in the air whether SWA drops the offer

 

[airlinepilot]

The lessons from the USAIR/America West deal have been loud and clear to all airline CEO's. This deal was the reason Gary tried so hard to get a pilot contract with the new code share language. The fact that we do not have a contract gives us even more leverage in this situation and I don't believe Gary will go forward unless there is a signed and sealed deal between both unions. I would think that once the unions come to terms (if they do) then the deal would be presented to both work groups for a vote. If F9 group is not happy with that then Republic airlines will be your next home. I for one think the F9 guys and gals are a fine group, however I don't think the majority of SWA pilots are not willing to give up any seniority to support what is an acquisition. I think it is really a simple decision for everyone. It is nice that the F9 guys and gals have a choice! I hope they do what works best for each and everyone of them. The F9 guys and gals might want to see what happened to Midwest after they got Republic got in the piicture.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Wake up guys.....Do you really think that SWA wants all the employees of F9?

Just look at history. Morris, TransStar, ATA, and now F9. There is a pattern and if you want to ignore it, then go ahead. This smells a lot like the ATA deal to me. I personally think that SWA has two plans in their secret vault.

1) Bring these two airlines together and move forward. This will include an "agreement" from the unions. If they do not get the "agreement" or feel that the SWA culture is being compromised, then on to the second plan.

2) Buy F9 and operate it separately. As they get more 73's they will phase out the bus and furlough. Eventually F9 will be gone and WN will have all their routes and a great foothold on DEN. (This is the ATA type deal) They will get around the A/M provisions because it will be operated as a separate "failing" company.

So back to number one. SWA pilots will not agree to anything but a staple. If F9 rejects this, then SWA moves to plan 2.

Is SWA above the law? NO, but they will use the law to accomplish what they want.

 

[FNG320]

Wake up guys.....Do you really think that SWA wants all the employees of F9?

Just look at history. Morris, TransStar, ATA, and now F9. There is a pattern and if you want to ignore it, then go ahead. This smells a lot like the ATA deal to me. I personally think that SWA has two plans in their secret vault.

1) Bring these two airlines together and move forward. This will include an "agreement" from the unions. If they do not get the "agreement" or feel that the SWA culture is being compromised, then on to the second plan.

2) Buy F9 and operate it separately. As they get more 73's they will phase out the bus and furlough. Eventually F9 will be gone and WN will have all their routes and a great foothold on DEN. (This is the ATA type deal) They will get around the A/M provisions because it will be operated as a separate "failing" company.

So back to number one. SWA pilots will not agree to anything but a staple. If F9 rejects this, then SWA moves to plan 2.

Is SWA above the law? NO, but they will use the law to accomplish what they want.

Option1 may be in the plans, but by the press releases saying "hiring Fontier employees" says no.

That leaves Option 2. Slowly bleed Frontier to death till it is nothing by a shrunken corpes with no assets, planes, gates and only a bunch of furloughed employees and Certifcate/name that SWA can sell to some upstart/new airline can buy and operate cheap.

This whole thing is great for SWA and most likely very very bad for Frontier pilots and employees. But I guess a preferential interview at SWA is better than nothing.

Just my opinion.......

FNG

 

[scoreboardII]

Look no further than how SWA treated ATA, that is their blueprint for takeover.

 

[firstthird]

They actually fly for a profitable airline! They do bring something to the table here or SWA wouldn't be trying to buy them.

making some money while in bankruptcy does not equal being a profitable airline. two airlines (so far) are doing the shopping and one is getting shopped.

I hope it works out for the F9 guys but if they really think that they'll be better off under Republic's wing than at SWA, by all means.

 

[RobCat]

I sure hope the RAH guys are reading this. Take note gentleman. SW was not built overnight it took years for them to get to where they are today. That group has not forgotten that.

 

[Tristar]

Dude,

Again, you don't get it. Look through the history books of SW. Muse Air Pilots were involved in "talks" with SW. They pushed for "integration" and look what that got them. You have to understand the company and culture here. There WILL BE NO INTEGRATION. Protection of some type, probably. That is as good as it is going to get. If FAPA comes in pushing for integration, the deal will be scrapped. PERIOD. Take a long look at your future with RAH and decide.

BUS

If you're unclear on the culture, rent a few episodes of Star Trek featuring the Borg. WN is a lot like that, only more devious and not as likable.

 

[Tristar]

Look no further than how SWA treated ATA, that is their blueprint for takeover.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

+1

 

[Tristar]

Option1 may be in the plans, but by the press releases saying "hiring Fontier employees" says no.

That leaves Option 2. Slowly bleed Frontier to death till it is nothing by a shrunken corpes with no assets, planes, gates and only a bunch of furloughed employees and Certifcate/name that SWA can sell to some upstart/new airline can buy and operate cheap.

This whole thing is great for SWA and most likely very very bad for Frontier pilots and employees. But I guess a preferential interview at SWA is better than nothing.

Just my opinion.......

FNG

If you like odds of 6/1000, sure.

Option 3: WN buys F9, operates it as a separate company. WN management falls in step with every other airline, explains to WN pilots how they are costing too much and need to take pay cuts to match the cost of F9. The whipsaw begins.

 

[bvt1151]

What does Southwest buying some slots from an airline that had already shut down (ATA) have to do with a bid for an airline that is currently flying with 60 aircraft and profitable (F9)?

The last thing you can do is draw comparisons from that. Morris Air is the closest comparison you can make in terms of pilots.

 

[airlinepilot]

Anyone that tries to draw a comparison between ATA is TOTALLY clueless!!!! Any aircraft owned by SWA will be flown by SWAPA pilots. It's in the contract and the pilots at SW are not going along with anything short of that!!! We will not allow GARY to operate two (or more) companies like that.

 

[slaquer5]

If you're unclear on the culture, rent a few episodes of Star Trek featuring the Borg. WN is a lot like that, only more devious and not as likable.

LMO I just spit my coffee out.

 

[HA25]

I hate to say it, but WN is doing nothing more than buying gate slots and routes.. They'll run F9 as an airline with in an airline as long as they can, not encroaching on the WN contract (or not much at least..).. then downsize the one and grow the other.. Their model is rock solid built on 1 type... so at a minimum, they'll need to find a new home for all those buses.. Wish the best, expecting the worse..

 

[dlzav8tr]

the best way to integrate the list keeping both pilot groups relatively happy in my opinion would be the following. Fence off f9 for five years and staple them to the bottom. With pilots from f9 coming over in senoirity order. In five years the most senior f9 capt would be at WN with 700 pilots jr. In that five years there would be several hundred retirements at WN and I would hope some hiring as well.

 

[greenbayfan]

What does Southwest buying some slots from an airline that had already shut down (ATA) have to do with a bid for an airline that is currently flying with 60 aircraft and profitable (F9)?

The last thing you can do is draw comparisons from that. Morris Air is the closest comparison you can make in terms of pilots.

Um, please stop posting until you you what you are talking about. If you think SWA buying slots is all that happened, you must have missed the previous 3 years of history between ATA and SWA, (probably when you were still popping zits and telling any woman who would listen about being a flight instructor). This scenario mirrors the planned demise of ATA. F9 guys better prepare for the worst because that WILL be how this goes down. SWA does not want Airbuses, more employees, or anything having to do with Frontier, all they want is to go head to head with UAL in Denver which would help snuff out even more competition.

SWA is all about eliminating competition. While SWA touted the investment in ATA as a "code share" they eliminated ATA from competing routes out of MDW and IND and increased their yield on those routes by eliminating competition. The same thing will happen in DEN and will allow them to go heads up against a VERY financially wounded UAL. When SWA smells blood, they take advantage of it. Why merge and have all the mess that has been shown to happen with the likes of AA and TWA, when you can increase market share and yield by just dismantling the competition.

F9 guys, do not get your hopes up, because your airline is about to be devoured and you will be collateral damage.....

 

[sshrae]

Um, please stop posting until you you what you are talking about. If you think SWA buying slots is all that happened, you must have missed the previous 3 years of history between ATA and SWA, (probably when you were still popping zits and telling any woman who would listen about being a flight instructor). This scenario mirrors the planned demise of ATA. F9 guys better prepare for the worst because that WILL be how this goes down. SWA does not want Airbuses, more employees, or anything having to do with Frontier, all they want is to go head to head with UAL in Denver which would help snuff out even more competition.

SWA is all about eliminating competition. While SWA touted the investment in ATA as a "code share" they eliminated ATA from competing routes out of MDW and IND and increased their yield on those routes by eliminating competition. The same thing will happen in DEN and will allow them to go heads up against a VERY financially wounded UAL. When SWA smells blood, they take advantage of it. Why merge and have all the mess that has been shown to happen with the likes of AA and TWA, when you can increase market share and yield by just dismantling the competition.

F9 guys, do not get your hopes up, because your airline is about to be devoured and you will be collateral damage.....

OK sunshine. Thats is your opinion. I'm hearing a lot different from people who actually work for SWA, maybe you should read some of their posts. I don't think anybody is getting their hopes up too much, but I honestly think your opinion is not that valuable, no offense.

 

[greenbayfan]

OK sunshine. Thats is your opinion. I'm hearing a lot different from people who actually work for SWA, maybe you should read some of their posts. I don't think anybody is getting their hopes up too much, but I honestly think your opinion is not that valuable, no offense.

What do you think SWA and the people you have heard from that work there are going to say...."we are going to buy you and shut you down"? Of course not, they will tell you what they told us at ATA which is, this will be beneficial for both SWA and Frontier and will help F9 exit BK, but that is NOT what will happen. Right now, SWA has to say the right things if they want this to get through the BK courts, and the right thing is NOT saying it will be "ATA, the Denver Edition".

You can believe what you read in posts and from your "inside sources" at SWA, but SWA and their employees do not want you guys there, they want the valuable parts of your company and to get rid of F9 as competition, period. SWA HAS PROVEN HOW THEY HANDLE THESE SITUATIONS, WHY DO YOU THINK YOUR COMPANY WILL BE DIFFERENT? Frontier will continue to operate as a seperate company even after the sale, just as ATA did, and then the slow death will occur. SWA has figured out that the best way to increase revenue is by eliminating the competitor which increases ticket prices. Buying and operating F9 does nothing to increase their bottom line.

 

[sshrae]

What do you think SWA and the people you have heard from that work there are going to say...."we are going to buy you and shut you down"? Of course not, they will tell you what they told us at ATA which is, this will be beneficial for both SWA and Frontier and will help F9 exit BK, but that is NOT what will happen. Right now, SWA has to say the right things if they want this to get through the BK courts, and the right thing is NOT saying it will be "ATA, the Denver Edition".

You can believe what you read in posts and from your "inside sources" at SWA, but SWA and their employees do not want you guys there, they want the valuable parts of your company and to get rid of F9 as competition, period. Frontier will continue to operate as a seperate company even after the sale, just as ATA did, and then the slow death will occur. SWA has figured out that the best way to increase revenue is by eliminating the competitor which increases ticket prices. Buying and operating F9 does nothing to increase their bottom line.

Again, I suggest you read some of the posts on here by SWA employees. Do you work for SWA? My guess is no. F9 no doubt will cease to exist if this deal goes through, GK has made that clear. However, that does nt mean doom for all the employees, that is where I think you are very mistaken. Your comparison to ATA is inaccurate. SWA did not own ATA, they bought the operating certificate after ATA went out of business. They did give them some money while they were operating but never owned them, in return they had a codeshare and received stakes on the gates at MDW. I feel silly telling you this as I am sure you knew this already. It is a completely different deal than ATA. BTW, I left F9 for arguably the best job in aviation NJA, so MY company has nothing to do with this.