"Frontier guys" Don't get Greedy!

[tzskipper]

What does FAPA's PWA say about being acquired, does it, like most airlines, require integration of the pilot groups in the event of an acquisition or fragmentation? How about SWAPA's PWA, what does it say about integration when SWA acqires another airline? Finally, what does federal law say? You may be presuming too much if you think SWA can buy another airline, poach it's assets and discard its employees.

Give me an 1113e for $200.00 Alex! (the question was how do you get around FAPA's PWA?)

s

 

[StaySeated]

"I will be writing my Union today to enforce the fact that I, as a dues paying member only support this if it is going to be beneficial to me, my fellow union pilots and my company."

As much as we all want to think that we have control over this process, the fact of the matter is WE DON"T. Do you think Kelly called SWAPA and asked how they felt about the bid? Do you think SWAPA or FAPA or the IBT will be determining the terms of the auction?

Look, I obviously have a stake in this game as do you, but take a look at this from my perspective.

You want to "benefit" from this acquisition, and I don't blame you.

You want this to be "beneficial to me, my fellow union pilots and my company". Please consider the following;

If SWA prevails in the auction, DEN will immediately become your largest city in terms of daily departures. It took SWA over 27 years to achieve 233 departures daily in LAS. You can exceed that capacity in Denver after only serving the market 3 years.

You will capture lucrative international routes and have the ability to feed those routes, greatly expanding your market-share even in cities that do not currently offer service to Mexico, Alaska(yes I know this not international), Canada, and Costa Rica.

You will be able to provide a service (international ops), within your own pilot group (assuming FAPA Pilots are integrated) that your own airline currently does not provide and currently wants to farm out to a third party (or two third parties).

You will grow your entire operation by over 10%, instantly.

You and I both know that SWA is currently offering buy-outs and planning on shrinking 5-6% this year alone.

You obtain "A" concourse.

You obtain LGA, DCA, and other coveted slots.

Benefit?

If SWA prevails, there will be innumerable benefits for the entire organization.

An inconvenient result of this growth and prosperity for your company could be the integration of 700 professionals or the loss of 700 careers. But, again, we will have little to say on that result.

I hope to fly with you someday, either in the jumpseat commuting to work or as a fellow crewmember.

 

[DeucesWild]

That's horsesh!t. EVERY SWAPA pilot maintains seniority, period. No offense to the F9 folks, but I've already lost mega-bucks from my retirement because of this age 65 crap, I don't want my 15 year upgrade to become a 20 year upgrade.

Pay protect them, and then staple them.

20 Year upgrade?? Why would the Frontier pilots want to join your list? Rumor is Republic wants to open two new bases with Frontier as their flagship and 30 new Airbii. Upgrades may be 2 years for the Frontier FO's with the Republic plan.

While you are waiting for your 20 year upgrade, you can watch Frontier dominate you in several cities, not just Denver.

 

[Porch]

20 Year upgrade?? Why would the Frontier pilots want to join your list? Rumor is Republic wants to open two new bases with Frontier as their flagship and 30 new Airbii. Upgrades may be 2 years for the Frontier FO's with the Republic plan.

While you are waiting for your 20 year upgrade, you can watch Frontier dominate you in several cities, not just Denver.

You gotta be kidding me... Rumor? You'd still make more at WN as an FO. Being a capt. isn't going to pay your mortgage, buy your boat or pay your ex-wives. Who cares where you sit, its the paycheck and security that count; at least in my book.

 

[StaySeated]

20 Year upgrade?? Why would the Frontier pilots want to join your list? Rumor is Republic wants to open two new bases with Frontier as their flagship and 30 new Airbii. Upgrades may be 2 years for the Frontier FO's with the Republic plan.

While you are waiting for your 20 year upgrade, you can watch Frontier dominate you in several cities, not just Denver.

Obviously, this idiot is not an F9 pilot. Anyone that uses "flagship" and "republic" in the same sentence doesn't have a clue.

I don't know why I am bothering, but there are 300+ FO's at F9, and another 56 on furlough, it will take more than 60 new aircraft to upgrade our FO's. Please take your rumor and nonsense elsewhere.

 

[FDJ2]

Give me an 1113e for $200.00 Alex! (the question was how do you get around FAPA's PWA?)

s

Do you truly believe a federal judge will reject the FAPA PWA so that the Frontier pilots will be denied their right to the federally mandated A-M LPPs just so the SWA pilots aren't inconvenienced by the process?

:laugh:

 

[tzskipper]

Do you truly believe a federal judge will reject the FAPA PWA so that the Frontier pilots will be denied their right to the federally mandated A-M LPPs?

:laugh:

The entire PWA would not be rejected. Only the parts that would jeopardize a deal getting done. So, if an 1113 is what it takes to get a deal done, you bet your a** a Judge would. By the way, it would be the Bankruptcy Judge who does it.

S

 

[FDJ2]

The entire PWA would not be rejected. Only the parts that would jeopardize a deal getting done. So, if an 1113 is what it takes to get a deal done, you bet your a** a Judge would. By the way, it would be the Bankruptcy Judge who does it.

S

Yeah I know it would be a Bankruptcy Judge, he works in a fedral court house where the US Bankruptcy Court is, but please elaborate why the US Bankruptcy Court should deny FAPA the protections they have in A-M. I'm sure the judge would be very sympathetic to the plight of the SWA pilots and their desire to deny the Frontier pilots their federally manadated right to "fair and equitable" treatment.

 

[atadog]

Never posted before, don't plan to post again.

10 years with ATA.

SWA had no LUV for us.

With all due respect my Frontier friends, your Trojan Horse has just arrived.

Run, Forest, Run!

 

[JAM-BRO]

That's horsesh!t. EVERY SWAPA pilot maintains seniority, period. No offense to the F9 folks, but I've already lost mega-bucks from my retirement because of this age 65 crap, I don't want my 15 year upgrade to become a 20 year upgrade.

Pay protect them, and then staple them.

SWAPA was the loudest voice out there for Age 65... So go whine and bitch to your own reps for your 20 yr upgrade. As far as Frontier, SWA is not above the law so forget about the staple job.. It ain't gonna happen.

 

[JAM-BRO]

Yeah I know it would be a Bankruptcy Judge, he works in a fedral court house where the US Bankruptcy Court is, but please elaborate why the US Bankruptcy Court should deny FAPA the protections they have in A-M. I'm sure the judge would be very sympathetic to the plight of the SWA pilots and their desire to deny the Frontier pilots their federally manadated right to "fair and equitable" treatment.

FDJ2... Don't try to reason with the SWA guys with actual facts... The think they are above the law..

 

[Flying the Line]

I do not want to see everyone stapled. I would also like to see that FAPA attempt to get SWA to guarantee a minimum number of airbus for a minimum number of years, like 40 for 6 years. At which point all the F9 captains would retain their seat when they are transitioned.

 

[fiel12]

If that's a "fair and equitable" integration method, then I'm sure you'll have no problem getting an arbitrator to agree to it.

Dude, you just don't get it. If Gary means what he says, there will be no deal unless WN labor (ie SWAPA) approves it (ie staple with pay protection). If F9 doesn't like it, deal is off. Have fun at RAH. THERE IS NO ARBITRATOR IF WE HAVEN'T BOUGHT YOU.

 

[JumpCaptain]

Where is the respect for these guys? Why shouldn't F9 guys get at least some type of fair intigration!?

They actually fly for a profitable airline! They do bring something to the table here or SWA wouldn't be trying to buy them.

Do you Southwest guys actually think you are so high and mighty that all the F9 guys should go beneath you!? If the arbitrator thinks like me, you'll be in for a suprise.

 

[scoreboardII]

I have lots of respect for F9 pilots, but if this is the way they feel then the F9 guys can hitch their hopes to Republic. Good day and best of luck.

Fair is fair, the company is being closed down, don't you get that? Profitable? Really? You think a few quarters of making a dime after shedding all debt is a sign of a healthy company? The bankers know otherwise. So do we.

It is just business guys, and i don't see where any SWA pilots owes seniority to any F9 pilot. If both companies where on equal footing and this was a real merger, sure, we would talk of the 2-1 or even 1-1. But not with employees from a failed company.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Did you really think swa was going to keep growing gangbusters forever with 4-5 year upgrades? At some point that was going to stop and there was going to be looongtime fos. Welcome to the majors son. Your timing was not so good. Just like most of us hired at the legacies the last 10-15 years.

Torti at recurrent. The exact numbers don't matter anyway. The fact of the matter is that putting the F9 guys in front of SWAPA pilots will make our already lengthy upgrade that much longer. Again, no offense to the F9 folks, but SWA is the acquiring airline. Stapling with pay protection is the only thing that is "fair and equitable".

 

[Skybus]

Dude,

Again, you don't get it. Look through the history books of SW. Muse Air Pilots were involved in "talks" with SW. They pushed for "integration" and look what that got them. You have to understand the company and culture here. There WILL BE NO INTEGRATION. Protection of some type, probably. That is as good as it is going to get. If FAPA comes in pushing for integration, the deal will be scrapped. PERIOD. Take a long look at your future with RAH and decide.

BUS

 

[slaquer5]

F9

I do wish all the F9 pilots the best of luck and I am sure there a way that makes most happy. I do think some of the SWA pilots are being self serving and I apologize for that.

 

[Zinger]

SWA pilots will be the "arbitrators". SWA doesn't wish to anger their pilots and comprimise their culture. Thus, SWAPA will get the final say and vote on any potential agreement. It looks like give and take. F9 guys TAKE a fat raise and GIVE their seniority, moving to the rear of the list. Other stuff won't fly.

 

[FDJ2]

Dude, you just don't get it. If Gary means what he says, there will be no deal unless WN labor (ie SWAPA) approves it (ie staple with pay protection). If F9 doesn't like it, deal is off. Have fun at RAH. THERE IS NO ARBITRATOR IF WE HAVEN'T BOUGHT YOU.

I don't work at F9 or RAH.

I do question whether SWA will pull the plug on this deal just because the SWA pilots either don't want to negotiate a integrated seniority list, or make their case before an arbitrator. If this deal has value for SWA, they'll make the deal.

Of course this whole thing could just be smoke and mirrors to raise the price, get into the books, effect contract negotiations etc. Time will tell, but if there is a deal, there will be either a negotiated or arbitrated seniority list.

 

[FNG320]

What everyone seems to forget is that the SWA press releases talk about "hiring" Frontier employees as SWA gains 737 and Airbus' are sold. If it "hiring" then all employees start at the bottom with zero seniority and 1st year pay.

That is why this would be worse that when Morris was purchased. They were stapled but kept thier longevity(pay protection) but their new seniority put them below all SWA pilots.

By operating Frontier as a separate airline, they can slowly bleed them dry of assets, people, routes, gates, etc. By operating as a separte airline, they do not have to integrate the pilots or other work groups. If enough Frontier pilots/employees do not join SWA, they will just hire off of the street with the same results. One airline grows, one airline fades away......

This will eliminate any any road block from SWAPA as there is no "Merger". There would be nothing to stop it from SWAs side and nothing that FAPA could do.

The only real roadblock I see is DOJ/DOT and the large overlap that SWA has created by going into DEN. In the past, they have prevented megers/buyouts when there have been large overlaps in service. This purchase (following published plans) would be a reduction in competion on these margets/routes and most likely would cause them to no approve the purchase (merger or not).

Just my opinion......

FNG

 

[Cometman]

I think they will offer a staple and to encourage the F9 pilots to agree they will throw in the pay freeze. Since it will take time for SWA to get rid of the AB and replace them with the 737 it only makes sense to keep them on. As long as they have their SWA number they can come over as each AB leaves and replaced with a 737. The Denver Base lock will help them in the transition. It will not hurt SWA since they cannot fly the AB. That will be more than any F9 would expect. Remember, they are being auctioned off. They could be out on the street. An F9 Captain can stay until the last AB is gone and then move over the 737. He will have his number already so he will not lose anything.

That is assuming they accept it to close the deal. If they cannot agree then it will be up in the air whether SWA drops the offer

 

[airlinepilot]

The lessons from the USAIR/America West deal have been loud and clear to all airline CEO's. This deal was the reason Gary tried so hard to get a pilot contract with the new code share language. The fact that we do not have a contract gives us even more leverage in this situation and I don't believe Gary will go forward unless there is a signed and sealed deal between both unions. I would think that once the unions come to terms (if they do) then the deal would be presented to both work groups for a vote. If F9 group is not happy with that then Republic airlines will be your next home. I for one think the F9 guys and gals are a fine group, however I don't think the majority of SWA pilots are not willing to give up any seniority to support what is an acquisition. I think it is really a simple decision for everyone. It is nice that the F9 guys and gals have a choice! I hope they do what works best for each and everyone of them. The F9 guys and gals might want to see what happened to Midwest after they got Republic got in the piicture.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Wake up guys.....Do you really think that SWA wants all the employees of F9?

Just look at history. Morris, TransStar, ATA, and now F9. There is a pattern and if you want to ignore it, then go ahead. This smells a lot like the ATA deal to me. I personally think that SWA has two plans in their secret vault.

1) Bring these two airlines together and move forward. This will include an "agreement" from the unions. If they do not get the "agreement" or feel that the SWA culture is being compromised, then on to the second plan.

2) Buy F9 and operate it separately. As they get more 73's they will phase out the bus and furlough. Eventually F9 will be gone and WN will have all their routes and a great foothold on DEN. (This is the ATA type deal) They will get around the A/M provisions because it will be operated as a separate "failing" company.

So back to number one. SWA pilots will not agree to anything but a staple. If F9 rejects this, then SWA moves to plan 2.

Is SWA above the law? NO, but they will use the law to accomplish what they want.

 

[FNG320]

Wake up guys.....Do you really think that SWA wants all the employees of F9?

Just look at history. Morris, TransStar, ATA, and now F9. There is a pattern and if you want to ignore it, then go ahead. This smells a lot like the ATA deal to me. I personally think that SWA has two plans in their secret vault.

1) Bring these two airlines together and move forward. This will include an "agreement" from the unions. If they do not get the "agreement" or feel that the SWA culture is being compromised, then on to the second plan.

2) Buy F9 and operate it separately. As they get more 73's they will phase out the bus and furlough. Eventually F9 will be gone and WN will have all their routes and a great foothold on DEN. (This is the ATA type deal) They will get around the A/M provisions because it will be operated as a separate "failing" company.

So back to number one. SWA pilots will not agree to anything but a staple. If F9 rejects this, then SWA moves to plan 2.

Is SWA above the law? NO, but they will use the law to accomplish what they want.

Option1 may be in the plans, but by the press releases saying "hiring Fontier employees" says no.

That leaves Option 2. Slowly bleed Frontier to death till it is nothing by a shrunken corpes with no assets, planes, gates and only a bunch of furloughed employees and Certifcate/name that SWA can sell to some upstart/new airline can buy and operate cheap.

This whole thing is great for SWA and most likely very very bad for Frontier pilots and employees. But I guess a preferential interview at SWA is better than nothing.

Just my opinion.......

FNG

 

[scoreboardII]

Look no further than how SWA treated ATA, that is their blueprint for takeover.

 

[firstthird]

They actually fly for a profitable airline! They do bring something to the table here or SWA wouldn't be trying to buy them.

making some money while in bankruptcy does not equal being a profitable airline. two airlines (so far) are doing the shopping and one is getting shopped.

I hope it works out for the F9 guys but if they really think that they'll be better off under Republic's wing than at SWA, by all means.

 

[RobCat]

I sure hope the RAH guys are reading this. Take note gentleman. SW was not built overnight it took years for them to get to where they are today. That group has not forgotten that.

 

[Tristar]

Dude,

Again, you don't get it. Look through the history books of SW. Muse Air Pilots were involved in "talks" with SW. They pushed for "integration" and look what that got them. You have to understand the company and culture here. There WILL BE NO INTEGRATION. Protection of some type, probably. That is as good as it is going to get. If FAPA comes in pushing for integration, the deal will be scrapped. PERIOD. Take a long look at your future with RAH and decide.

BUS

If you're unclear on the culture, rent a few episodes of Star Trek featuring the Borg. WN is a lot like that, only more devious and not as likable.

 

[Tristar]

Look no further than how SWA treated ATA, that is their blueprint for takeover.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!

+1