"Frontier guys" Don't get Greedy!

[Cometman]

SWA wants to buy F9 and then take what is good for them. This is America and that is the way business runs. You try to take business away from other companies that you compete with. Only the strongest will survive. In this case F9 is on the last leg, otherwise they would not be in Chapter 11. They should be happy that there is a SWA that is ready to make an offer. If SWA offers a pay freeze, a lock on Denver for several years plus other benefits, then being stapled is not that bad. Chapter 7 would be worst. 50 years from now it won't make a difference.
Why should any employee from F9 benefit from this purchase by being placed ahead of SWA employees.

 

[OurMoney1]

Does anyone know when the last day is to submit bids for F9?

 

[HDA]

Does anyone know when the last day is to submit bids for F9?

Today at midnight EDT.

 

[ATRCA]

If I were at F9 I would want nothing to do with this SWA deal. I don't think SWA has any intention of keeping a single F9 employee when this is all said and done with. SWA is after UAL and F9 has assets(not human) that help them get where they want to go. They will make you an "offer" for an interview at such time the Buses are gone but I suspect few will actually find themselves "hired" by SWA. While joining the RAH team seems like a poor deal also, I believe RAH has every intention of growing F9 and using it as a launching pad for continued growth and movement into a different segment of the industry.

They way I see it, one company SWA, is looking to kill two birds with one stone, (acquire F9, use it against UAL then kill them BOTH) while the other, RAH genuinely wants to acquire another airline to position that carrier for growth and integration. It's a poor situation either way but I don't think becoming employees of SWA was ever in the plan hatched by SWA management.

I could be wrong.

 

[waveflyer]

it's funny that the most cynical versions of this come from employees of other airlines not named SWA or Frontier. Not a coincidence i think.

Some people seem to be poisoning the well before this is even a possibility. Wonder why? Let's hope the unions and powers that be are a bit more even-keeled.
(repost)
To me: If the lists are integrated - and it's a big IF that wn will even buy f9- it will be a post 1994 ratio weighted toward southwest (read a bit better for wn than a % ratio- with all wn pilots hired before 1994 being on top). There are, and should be some consequences to being bought out. We live in a capitalist society, like it or not. But to staple is not fair.

That's the only way to acknowledge the fact that wn is the better job and the buying carrier, while at the same time recognizing that the pilots of F9 have built an airline that SWA wants to buy. A great airline. That's an accomplishment. Both factors should be considered.

Is there an argument against this?

 

[StaySeated]

Unfortunately, what "we want" really has no affect on how this entire process will evolve.

 

[Cometman]

If I were at F9 I would want nothing to do with this SWA deal. I don't think SWA has any intention of keeping a single F9 employee when this is all said and done with. SWA is after UAL and F9 has assets(not human) that help them get where they want to go. They will make you an "offer" for an interview at such time the Buses are gone but I suspect few will actually find themselves "hired" by SWA. While joining the RAH team seems like a poor deal also, I believe RAH has every intention of growing F9 and using it as a launching pad for continued growth and movement into a different segment of the industry.

They way I see it, one company SWA, is looking to kill two birds with one stone, (acquire F9, use it against UAL then kill them BOTH) while the other, RAH genuinely wants to acquire another airline to position that carrier for growth and integration. It's a poor situation either way but I don't think becoming employees of SWA was ever in the plan hatched by SWA management.

I could be wrong.

So, if SWA offers them a staple, pay freeze, denver lock for several years and other benefits, you would think that it is a great deal and they should accept it. I think they should accept it because of the other option.

 

[ATRCA]

So, if SWA offers them a staple, pay freeze, denver lock for several years and other benefits, you would think that it is a great deal and they should accept it. I think they should accept it because of the other option.

I'm sure you do...................I just don't know if they think it's a good deal. It's being wrapped in a whole bunch of condescention.....who knows??

 

[Cometman]

I'm sure you do...................I just don't know if they think it's a good deal. It's being wrapped in a whole bunch of condescention.....who knows??

I think it is a good deal. I wish I had the chance to take it.

 

[FNG320]

it's funny that the most cynical versions of this come from employees of other airlines not named SWA or Frontier. Not a coincidence i think.

Some people seem to be poisoning the well before this is even a possibility. Wonder why? Let's hope the unions and powers that be are a bit more even-keeled.
(repost)
To me: If the lists are integrated - and it's a big IF that wn will even buy f9- it will be a post 1994 ratio weighted toward southwest (read a bit better for wn than a % ratio- with all wn pilots hired before 1994 being on top). There are, and should be some consequences to being bought out. We live in a capitalist society, like it or not. But to staple is not fair.

That's the only way to acknowledge the fact that wn is the better job and the buying carrier, while at the same time recognizing that the pilots of F9 have built an airline that SWA wants to buy. A great airline. That's an accomplishment. Both factors should be considered.

Is there an argument against this?

Why do you not hear a lot from SWA pilots?

Becuase we know that they do not want any integration except staple or preferential interviews. They do not want anything that hurts their seniority. Any push/comments from them saying so would just show them as taking advantage of a fellow pilot/pilot group. Climb up the ladder on the backs of fellow pilots.

Wh do yo not hear from Frontier pilots. First, shock Republic was the first 2x4 across the forehead. Then SWA was the second. They are in shock. Second is the fact that they hope to be integrated with SWA and don't want to piss off any SWA pilots. Remember, names on even this Blog are only a phone call aways from a friend of a friend of a friend. Would you want to go to your Preferentail interview, after slamming SWA pilots and the company for not taking care of the Frontier pilots in a truely fair integration (ref DAL/NWA). They are keeping quiet for self preservation.

SWAPA will fight tooth and nail against any percentage integration what so ever, even with the 1994 date. They can act the "corporate raider" and take Frontier apart peice by piece over the next couple of years and get all of F9 with none of the Operational/contactual issue for the labor groups. Again, it will Be Morris type integraion, or nothing.


Just my opinion......

FNG

 

[waveflyer]

Or.... The term "haters" comes to mind(!)

 

[ASADFW7]

Why do you not hear a lot from SWA pilots?

Becuase we know that they do not want any integration except staple or preferential interviews. They do not want anything that hurts their seniority. Any push/comments from them saying so would just show them as taking advantage of a fellow pilot/pilot group. Climb up the ladder on the backs of fellow pilots.

Wh do yo not hear from Frontier pilots. First, shock Republic was the first 2x4 across the forehead. Then SWA was the second. They are in shock. Second is the fact that they hope to be integrated with SWA and don't want to piss off any SWA pilots. Remember, names on even this Blog are only a phone call aways from a friend of a friend of a friend. Would you want to go to your Preferentail interview, after slamming SWA pilots and the company for not taking care of the Frontier pilots in a truely fair integration (ref DAL/NWA). They are keeping quiet for self preservation.

SWAPA will fight tooth and nail against any percentage integration what so ever, even with the 1994 date. They can act the "corporate raider" and take Frontier apart peice by piece over the next couple of years and get all of F9 with none of the Operational/contactual issue for the labor groups. Again, it will Be Morris type integraion, or nothing.


Just my opinion......

FNG

I appreciate your post

 

[Richard Gozinya]

Lets talk of one little detail that seems to be glossed over quite quickly. What exactly are the Frontier pilots willing to sacrifice for those on furlough? Are they willing to give a little for the most senior to get something for those on the street? Are the senior guys willing to give for their weakest element? I haven't heard a word on this subject. I know for a fact that the SWA guys are willing to fight to the end for those in the pool. Some of the guys in the pool have gone through the whole anal cavity review and have been waiting for many moons. I can also ensure you that they are reading this forum with much interest. They aren't going to pipe in, but they are watching, just like the F9 guys on the street.

Don't worry there BigGoob, you guys are being talked of frequently on the SWAPA forum!

Dick

 

[FlyinGuy]

Yes the ATA and F9 deals are structured differently, but you are blind if you cannot see that they can get to the same outcome. SWA did not buy ATA outright, but WHO was running the company after the deal went through? Answer: Dennison (aka SWA)!

 

[airlinepilot]

The F9 guys and gals need to look at this from the SWA pilot's point of view (not saying you have to agree). For us at SWA adding 700 pilots to the seniority list does nothing for us unless it's a staple job. Otherwise, we would prefer to tell Gary to grow his own and move on. F9 has a good product/group but any type of integration other than staple sets every pilot, hired after 1994, back. Therefore as a pilot there is simply nothing in the deal for most of us. The real reason we turned down our contract was that a majority (63%) of the FO's voted NO.....and most of it was about quality of life and the left seat (lance program). A great many FO's were upset with SWAPA for pushing age 65 just for starters. I wish the F9 guys and gals good luck and hope they make the right decision for them. I really believe that this deal has nothing to do with ATA. ATA failed on it's own and all the money SW had could not have saved them. They had expensive leases on all their aircraft and numerous other financial problems. Good luck to all

 

[Zinger]

F9 folks, has Republic requested unlimited scope relief as part of their funding?

If so, the future of Frontier Airlines wouldn't be in the flying French living room...rather the big jungle jets. A fence wouldn't matter if the a/c type disappears. There would be the former F9 Airbus pilot...employed by Republic, hopefully sitting on the E190, hopefully left seat, living the regional life you might have said "never again" to. What would the pay, QOL, benefits, job security, etc.? Putting myself in the shoes of an F9 pilot, I should think the SWA option superior in every respect. I would be at the bottom of a SWA list, keeping my standard of living with pay protection, and soon making more then I ever was at F9.

 

[get2flyin]

The F9 guys and gals need to look at this from the SWA pilot's point of view (not saying you have to agree). For us at SWA adding 700 pilots to the seniority list does nothing for us unless it's a staple job.

Wrong. These aren't 700 pilots just being added to your seniority list. This kids showed up at the sandbox with their own toys. You aren't having to share yours with them without getting anything in return. It doesn't screw your precious SWA upgrade time unless they simply dump the Airbus' and don't replace them one-for-one with your wonderplane 737. Stapling them to the bottom of your list is nothing but a grab at their captain's seats and that ain't pretty.

You're right, getting folded into SWA is a pretty sweet deal for the F9 guys but sometimes luck is how this industry works. However, maybe you should open your eyes and consider they bring expansion and some international flying to your company that you need.

I don't work for either of the involved groups but this attitude of "I'm keeping mine and entitled to yours and screw you if you don't like it" isreally getting ugly in this industry.

 

[waveflyer]

I agree with the above. The fears about ATA are also valid- but let's look at the differences:
ATA in my admitedly limited knowledge, was a successful charter company that branched out, with limited success, to passenger service. SWA didn't necessarily buy into ATA for anything other than gate space and slots.
F9 has a huge customer base that SWA is after- they don't need slots or necessarily more gate space- there's so much room there- they could do it on their own if they had to- the biggest gain is the customer base. It's a good fit culturally- and it will only add to wn to bring on the pilots-
throw in bond mccaskill and I think that the f9 pilots have a pretty good and secure future at Swa. Just have to get through the integration w/o bad blood.

 

[greenbayfan]

ATA failed on it's own and all the money SW had could not have saved them. They had expensive leases on all their aircraft and numerous other financial problems. Good luck to all

Not sure how you see a difference between the ATA situation and F9. F9 is obviously in just as severe a financial situation as ATA was or they wouldn't be in bankruptcy. In fact F9 is probably in a worse situation because the lack of credit available now as opposed to credit available in 2005. The only real option for F9 to survive is via acquisition, because there are no hedge funds or equity financing options available anymore.

I agree with a previous post, regardless of what percentage SWA owned of ATA (approx 40%) as opposed to what is being proposed at F9 (100%), SWA will still operate F9 as a seperate company eliminating the need to integrate employee groups, and slowly bleed the company down to nothing. SWA has 2 priorities.....1. Stopping the competition from moving into valuable territory (example, increasing the bid for ATA over Airtran to stop Airtran from growing in the MDW market), 2. Eliminating competition....by taking on UAL heads up in one of their biggest markets, SWA could take out the real prize of all this, by killing a legacy airline that is on the ropes. It's no secret that UAL is probably the weakest of all legacy airlines right now, UAL could get snuffed by SWA increasing marketshare in DEN.

JMHO

 

[ASADFW7]

In my humble opinion F9 pilots are not SWA pilots yet. If they are going to end up within the SWA group it is a much quicker path to being made whole than at Republic.