Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
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For Those About to Vote/Not Vote ALPA At SkyWest...
- Thread starter 120% Torque
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Exskydiverdrivr
still fly a load or two
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2005
- Posts
- 391
If ASA votes this TA in while you ALPA bashers continue your path- your going to find yourselves nearer to the bottom of regional pay scales. You think SGU is gonna just jump in and bring SKW up to par with our bretheran?
Former union FO's new to SKW are going to be right back at square one.Looking up from the bottom again. (Yes, I do think about you guys and would like to see you catch a break).
It's time to unite this industry guys! I don't dislike Mgmt (at SKW anyways) and it is not my intent to bend them over and try to shove stuff down their throats. Take a look around guys- even Lou Dobbs is talking about the elimination of the middle class! We continue too fall behind in COLA and QOL issues. Quit treating reionals as stepping stones! If your goal is to camp out for awhile-Fine. But just like any other camp ground- Try to leave it a little better than you found it.
Those with the it's all about me attitudes that would dump on someone else won't like it when that someone else undercuts your bid to feed his family. Its been said a million times here- Quit being the guy who lowers the bar!
Former union FO's new to SKW are going to be right back at square one.Looking up from the bottom again. (Yes, I do think about you guys and would like to see you catch a break).
It's time to unite this industry guys! I don't dislike Mgmt (at SKW anyways) and it is not my intent to bend them over and try to shove stuff down their throats. Take a look around guys- even Lou Dobbs is talking about the elimination of the middle class! We continue too fall behind in COLA and QOL issues. Quit treating reionals as stepping stones! If your goal is to camp out for awhile-Fine. But just like any other camp ground- Try to leave it a little better than you found it.
Those with the it's all about me attitudes that would dump on someone else won't like it when that someone else undercuts your bid to feed his family. Its been said a million times here- Quit being the guy who lowers the bar!
you apparently know my name and if you knew how to use aircraft registry you could find out that my paper airplane is a little bigger than 8.5 x11. It is at # 2 and tampering with aircraft is a felony.... but you know that. As an fo I cannot afford the airplane but through my other job and some investments Ive made, the airplane is a great deal!!!! we should go flying sometime! we disagree on alpa but we both enjoy flying right? Ill buy lunch. im serious.
Great posts 120% Torque....
And no - I am not an ALPA cheerleader, but having a BRAIN OF MY OWN I came to the very quick conclusion that SAPA is useless.
ALPA probably is not the answer to everything. That being said, it has been interesting reading these posts for the last couple of months and I can say that for the most part, the SAPA cheerleaders out there can not and will not be able to offer any substantial EVIDENCE or ARGUEMENT to state that SAPA actually DOES something for the pilot group. The only way that they (the SAPA cheerleaders) have been able to sustain any conversation in this matter is by simply stating that:
#1 - ALPA sucks
#2 - Did you work for an ALPA carrier, cuz' I did.
#3 - ALPA sucks
However, there are many of us out there including 120% that have posted many facts about the situation.
Most of us that feel that SAPA is ineffective that have expressed our opinions on this board, ARE THE FIRST ONES TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ALPA IS NOT THE GREAT SAVIOR OF SKYWEST.
THAT BEING SAID, SAPA IS A FARCE. A MIRAGE, CONJURED UP AND SUSTAINED BY MANAGEMENT.
I have previously posted this but I felt it necessary to post again.
Definitions:
Represent. Verb. "To act or speak on behalf of somebody or something.
To speak and act for somebody else in an official way."
Representation. Noun. "The fact or right of being represented by somebody, especially of having a member in a legislature with the power to vote or speak for an electorate."
Negotiation. Noun. "The reaching of agreement through discussion and compromise."
So let me get this straight...SAPA negotiated for this last contract with management....hmmm....No increases for the Bro - not that they work the hardest - 9 legs a day, 20 min legs with 18 min turns, a 1% increase on the 50 for 4 YEARS! - .25% a year. A 1% increase on the 70/90 with a block hour override that was WAY overdue - anyone remember the conditions of bringing the 70 on property - Empty Promises!
WAY TO GO SAPA!!! To negotiate don't you need to start high and COMPROMISE to a middle point? To get a 1% raise for 4 years - what was the high mark that SAPA used to negotiate? 1.1%?
Inflation rises every year!
Inflation. Noun. "An increase in the supply of currency or credit relative to the availability of goods and services, resulting in higher prices."
A relative of mine works in health care industry - standard YEARLY raise 3% (Hey - to keep up with inflation) and above and beyond that for performance.
Check out the salary inflation calculator on inflationdata.com!
Binding. Adjective. "Creating a legal or moral obligation to do something, with no possibility of withdrawal or avoidance."
Hey, thats something we DON"T have. A binding contract, document, something that states that Party A is responsible for this and B for that. Here are the rules that BOTH sides must abide by. Nope - JA and company can make changes to whatever they like and we are along for the ride!
Examples: "...The 18 Month TA dated July 1, 2003 through December 31,2004 - SAPA President CA
The State of the Industry
In early January, the SkyWest Airlines Pilot Association Representative Board (SAPA) initiated formal pay rate discussions with SkyWest Airlines Management (Management). The structure, format and terms of our Tentative Agreement (TA) have changed dramatically since then....
...The Tentative Agreement
Highlights: "In English, please ..."
-18 month duration
- Current pay scales for current aircraft
- All longevity increases remain intact
- 50-99 seat rates (current 50 seat rates)
- 100-159 seat jet rates (-20-22% below Southwest Airlines 2001/2002 scale)
Rates and Duration: How Much, How Long?
SAPA and Management haveagreed to the following pay scale. If approved by majority vote of the SAPA General Membership, this scale will be effective July 1, 2003 through December 31,2004."
So, what happened on Jan 1, 2005....
"SAPA President pay letter to BH ~2004
Dear B,
I am writing to you in my capacity as President of The SkyWest Airlines Pilot's Association (SAPA) regarding the pay scale that SAPA proposes to become effective January 1, 2005.
SAPA shares the desire of the company as expressed in our joint letter of May 18, 2000, to work together to develop an hourly pay scale that keeps SkyWest pilots at the top of the industry. In keeping with the thoughts expressed in the letter, our current representatives believe the pay scale should be adjusted annually to keep it at the top of the industry during the term of the agreement...
...The CRJ 50 and 70-seat pay scales submitted herewith are reflective of the top industry scales that will become effective in 2005. Adoption of these pay scales will meet the expressed desire of the company and SAPA. Further, the submitted pay scales reflect year over year percentage increases of2.5%, 3.0% and 3.5% in order to keep them at the top of the industry during the term of the agreement...
...EMB-120 aircraft, SAPA proposes a percentage increase of 4.7% to account for the increase in the cost of living since the current pay scales were adopted in June, 2002. This scale also reflects year over year percentage increases of 2.5%, 3.0% and 3.5% in order to keep it at the top of the industry during the term of the agreement...
...SAPA proposes the elimination of the rates contained in the current SP Paragraph, 100-159 Seat Jet Hourly Pay Rates. SAPA proposes to negotiate separately the rate for any aircraft larger than those currently operated by SkyWest Airlines...."
None of the SAPA proposed changes happened in 2005. Finally in Nov. 2006....wait for it, wait for it, wait for it.....Yessssss! 1%.
SAPA does not work...Maybe back in the day it worked with a small, family style company, but with domicles coast to coast, 2000+ pilots and growing exponentially - it doesn't work!
The situation with SAPA is like voting in a election, electing representatives to Congress, those reprensatives voting how their constituents wish them to on issues, and then the whole system is hijacked by the speaker of the house who says too bad you voted for the bill, not only is it not going to pass but here's what's going to happen!
So, I ask - why should I vote in a system in which I have no REAL representation.
So..I vote for a SAPA rep.....and candidate X (who REALLY DOES care about me and my needs, who REALLY DOES want to get things done, who REALLY DOES want to see GOOD THINGS for Skywest - because they DO!) goes to the SAPA meetings and voices my concerns, needs, wants and wishes to "the boys", battles with them day after day, week after week, month after month and in the end.....
.........."they" do what "they" want to do, because - "they" can.
So, before you ALPA hate.....
1. What really is SAPA?
2. Who really is SAPA?
3. Who is SAPA accountable to? Management or the pilots. You don't have to dig too deep to see that the answer is management.
4. What power does SAPA have?
This is extremely important. Without this POWER, there is no bargaining, compromising, or agreeing on ANYTHING - It is all a contrived scripted ending by management.
And no - I am not an ALPA cheerleader, but having a BRAIN OF MY OWN I came to the very quick conclusion that SAPA is useless.
ALPA probably is not the answer to everything. That being said, it has been interesting reading these posts for the last couple of months and I can say that for the most part, the SAPA cheerleaders out there can not and will not be able to offer any substantial EVIDENCE or ARGUEMENT to state that SAPA actually DOES something for the pilot group. The only way that they (the SAPA cheerleaders) have been able to sustain any conversation in this matter is by simply stating that:
#1 - ALPA sucks
#2 - Did you work for an ALPA carrier, cuz' I did.
#3 - ALPA sucks
However, there are many of us out there including 120% that have posted many facts about the situation.
Most of us that feel that SAPA is ineffective that have expressed our opinions on this board, ARE THE FIRST ONES TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ALPA IS NOT THE GREAT SAVIOR OF SKYWEST.
THAT BEING SAID, SAPA IS A FARCE. A MIRAGE, CONJURED UP AND SUSTAINED BY MANAGEMENT.
I have previously posted this but I felt it necessary to post again.
Definitions:
Represent. Verb. "To act or speak on behalf of somebody or something.
To speak and act for somebody else in an official way."
Representation. Noun. "The fact or right of being represented by somebody, especially of having a member in a legislature with the power to vote or speak for an electorate."
Negotiation. Noun. "The reaching of agreement through discussion and compromise."
So let me get this straight...SAPA negotiated for this last contract with management....hmmm....No increases for the Bro - not that they work the hardest - 9 legs a day, 20 min legs with 18 min turns, a 1% increase on the 50 for 4 YEARS! - .25% a year. A 1% increase on the 70/90 with a block hour override that was WAY overdue - anyone remember the conditions of bringing the 70 on property - Empty Promises!
WAY TO GO SAPA!!! To negotiate don't you need to start high and COMPROMISE to a middle point? To get a 1% raise for 4 years - what was the high mark that SAPA used to negotiate? 1.1%?
Inflation rises every year!
Inflation. Noun. "An increase in the supply of currency or credit relative to the availability of goods and services, resulting in higher prices."
A relative of mine works in health care industry - standard YEARLY raise 3% (Hey - to keep up with inflation) and above and beyond that for performance.
Check out the salary inflation calculator on inflationdata.com!
Binding. Adjective. "Creating a legal or moral obligation to do something, with no possibility of withdrawal or avoidance."
Hey, thats something we DON"T have. A binding contract, document, something that states that Party A is responsible for this and B for that. Here are the rules that BOTH sides must abide by. Nope - JA and company can make changes to whatever they like and we are along for the ride!
Examples: "...The 18 Month TA dated July 1, 2003 through December 31,2004 - SAPA President CA
The State of the Industry
In early January, the SkyWest Airlines Pilot Association Representative Board (SAPA) initiated formal pay rate discussions with SkyWest Airlines Management (Management). The structure, format and terms of our Tentative Agreement (TA) have changed dramatically since then....
...The Tentative Agreement
Highlights: "In English, please ..."
-18 month duration
- Current pay scales for current aircraft
- All longevity increases remain intact
- 50-99 seat rates (current 50 seat rates)
- 100-159 seat jet rates (-20-22% below Southwest Airlines 2001/2002 scale)
Rates and Duration: How Much, How Long?
SAPA and Management haveagreed to the following pay scale. If approved by majority vote of the SAPA General Membership, this scale will be effective July 1, 2003 through December 31,2004."
So, what happened on Jan 1, 2005....
"SAPA President pay letter to BH ~2004
Dear B,
I am writing to you in my capacity as President of The SkyWest Airlines Pilot's Association (SAPA) regarding the pay scale that SAPA proposes to become effective January 1, 2005.
SAPA shares the desire of the company as expressed in our joint letter of May 18, 2000, to work together to develop an hourly pay scale that keeps SkyWest pilots at the top of the industry. In keeping with the thoughts expressed in the letter, our current representatives believe the pay scale should be adjusted annually to keep it at the top of the industry during the term of the agreement...
...The CRJ 50 and 70-seat pay scales submitted herewith are reflective of the top industry scales that will become effective in 2005. Adoption of these pay scales will meet the expressed desire of the company and SAPA. Further, the submitted pay scales reflect year over year percentage increases of2.5%, 3.0% and 3.5% in order to keep them at the top of the industry during the term of the agreement...
...EMB-120 aircraft, SAPA proposes a percentage increase of 4.7% to account for the increase in the cost of living since the current pay scales were adopted in June, 2002. This scale also reflects year over year percentage increases of 2.5%, 3.0% and 3.5% in order to keep it at the top of the industry during the term of the agreement...
...SAPA proposes the elimination of the rates contained in the current SP Paragraph, 100-159 Seat Jet Hourly Pay Rates. SAPA proposes to negotiate separately the rate for any aircraft larger than those currently operated by SkyWest Airlines...."
None of the SAPA proposed changes happened in 2005. Finally in Nov. 2006....wait for it, wait for it, wait for it.....Yessssss! 1%.
SAPA does not work...Maybe back in the day it worked with a small, family style company, but with domicles coast to coast, 2000+ pilots and growing exponentially - it doesn't work!
The situation with SAPA is like voting in a election, electing representatives to Congress, those reprensatives voting how their constituents wish them to on issues, and then the whole system is hijacked by the speaker of the house who says too bad you voted for the bill, not only is it not going to pass but here's what's going to happen!
So, I ask - why should I vote in a system in which I have no REAL representation.
So..I vote for a SAPA rep.....and candidate X (who REALLY DOES care about me and my needs, who REALLY DOES want to get things done, who REALLY DOES want to see GOOD THINGS for Skywest - because they DO!) goes to the SAPA meetings and voices my concerns, needs, wants and wishes to "the boys", battles with them day after day, week after week, month after month and in the end.....
.........."they" do what "they" want to do, because - "they" can.
So, before you ALPA hate.....
1. What really is SAPA?
2. Who really is SAPA?
3. Who is SAPA accountable to? Management or the pilots. You don't have to dig too deep to see that the answer is management.
4. What power does SAPA have?
This is extremely important. Without this POWER, there is no bargaining, compromising, or agreeing on ANYTHING - It is all a contrived scripted ending by management.
Last edited:
Skywest Pylot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 338
Chock up another yes vote. I just wasted a bunch of time reading through this thread. On one side I see facts being posted and on the other side excuses. To the newbies, might I suggest taking some time to talk to the guys/gals (not SAPA Reps) who have been here for a while. We've been down this road many times before. Let's work on locking in what we have now before anymore of our QOL slips away. I"ve been screwed way too many times by the evolution of our Policy Manual! Voting down ALPA will send but another message to management that it's okay to continue taking. Been there done that, got the t-shirt.
Skywest Pylot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 338
At the top of the SAPA organization is a good old boys club that looks out for management because in turn management looks out for them. Don't get me wrong, there are guys at the lower levels who are working for us but the direction and leadership of the organization starts and ends at the top. One only needs to read the SAPA forums to understand who each rep is representing.
Skywest Pylot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 338
Skywest Pylot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 338
Pilot Protections
The longer I'm a pilot, the more I've come to realize how reluctant most of us are to discuss the "hard lessons" we've learned in our careers. What I do know for certain is that we all have them as we're all human.
As an FO I could tell many stories about flying with instructor pilots who come out on line to get a little stick time. These stories vary in degree up to and including having to take the controls to prevent him smacking the airplane into the runway. My how those flying skills tarnish while spending most of one's time in the back of a sim or in front of a classroom. When the tables are turned, and we line pilots come into the sim for training or prochecks, we are susceptable to having a bad day as well. (Not to mention that all IP's were not created equal). It can also happen on a line check or simply on line as we suffer those inevitable NASA Form/ASAP worthy brain fart events we all know we have.
I'm curious as to what protections are offered by SAPA and Skywest when pilots do experience these "hard lessons?" I've heard many stories of the "Up or Out" policies of Skywest. I wonder how many pilots are fired without recourse? The benefits of ALPA on a local level are often debated on these forums. I can attest to the greatest benefit, and possibly least discussed, is how ALPA comes in to protect the jobs of member pilots when these unfortunate human error issues happen. Another circumstance is when ALPA fights to get back the jobs of pilots fired for illegitimate reasons. Here at ASA, we've seen this happen countless times, we do have recourse. Our contract has very significant pilot protections built in to prevent random or illegitimate firing, and it works quite well. Many excellent pilots owe their careers to ALPA after they stepped up for them. I wonder how these type situations are handled at SKWY?
The longer I'm a pilot, the more I've come to realize how reluctant most of us are to discuss the "hard lessons" we've learned in our careers. What I do know for certain is that we all have them as we're all human.
As an FO I could tell many stories about flying with instructor pilots who come out on line to get a little stick time. These stories vary in degree up to and including having to take the controls to prevent him smacking the airplane into the runway. My how those flying skills tarnish while spending most of one's time in the back of a sim or in front of a classroom. When the tables are turned, and we line pilots come into the sim for training or prochecks, we are susceptable to having a bad day as well. (Not to mention that all IP's were not created equal). It can also happen on a line check or simply on line as we suffer those inevitable NASA Form/ASAP worthy brain fart events we all know we have.
I'm curious as to what protections are offered by SAPA and Skywest when pilots do experience these "hard lessons?" I've heard many stories of the "Up or Out" policies of Skywest. I wonder how many pilots are fired without recourse? The benefits of ALPA on a local level are often debated on these forums. I can attest to the greatest benefit, and possibly least discussed, is how ALPA comes in to protect the jobs of member pilots when these unfortunate human error issues happen. Another circumstance is when ALPA fights to get back the jobs of pilots fired for illegitimate reasons. Here at ASA, we've seen this happen countless times, we do have recourse. Our contract has very significant pilot protections built in to prevent random or illegitimate firing, and it works quite well. Many excellent pilots owe their careers to ALPA after they stepped up for them. I wonder how these type situations are handled at SKWY?
yellowfever
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2004
- Posts
- 109
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