For AMR, a Pilot-Salary Fight Looms

[dudemize]

(There are year 1-2 BUS Fo's at FedEX making 128 an hour as well...)

So the 8/9 year guys at AA aren't year 8/9 777 FOs, but rather year 5/6 year 73-8 captains making 154 hour?

I guess that's OK then.

Ummm.....I'm fairly certain that there are no 5 year Captains at AMR, seeing as how there a couple guys in my squadron that have been there 14+ years and are still 1000+ numbers away from Capt (and that's on the MD-80!).

 

[C-150ETOPS]

That's pretty sweet.

The majority of that group averages 50 years old with families, living in areas where the cost of living generally isn't the lowest.

It's "sweet" for a guy safely ensconced in the trailing edge of the bell curve of society.

 

[aa73]

Jr AA CA is a mid 1990 hire. Yes you can blame stagnation... but the main reason our upgrades have been so long is because of the damned "up or out" policy. This results in tons of F/Os who still must upgrade and serve their one year as CA, and then if they want they can go back to F/O for life. It is AA's way of getting around age discrimination, and it SUCKS! It also results in certain pilots upgrading who have no business upgrading.

73

 

[C-150ETOPS]

(There are year 1-2 BUS Fo's at FedEX making 128 an hour as well...)

So the 8/9 year guys at AA aren't year 8/9 777 FOs, but rather year 5/6 year 73-8 captains making 154 hour?

I guess that's OK then.

It's been at least 6 years since a 737 CA bid went lower the 17 years of seniority. Recently, most 777 FO bids went senior to that.

17 years as a 777 FO get you a few weekend relief FO lines out of MIA, maybe 1 or 2 lines out of ORD. LGA will get you about 20 lines to choose from. Forget any cushy 9 day months to Asia, those lines go way senior.

At the moment, bottom CA is LGA S80D. It's running at 17 years only because guys holding reinstatement rights from 2001-2. Otherwise, bottom CA at any other base is close to 18 years.

At most places, we live and die by seniority. Right now, about 1/3 of the AA list, all FO's, are generally in the lower end of career earnings of most legacy's and LCC's based on years of sevice and the ability to make Captain.

We even had idiots in our union publish how well our 12 year S80 FO pay ranked compared to other companies FO's while ignoring the 6-8 year upgrades elsewhere.

It's "sweet" if you're 15 years old and cutting grass and dreaming of flying for AA. That's the place to be for this place for the best seniority placement.

 

[HA25]

That's pretty sweet.

you are an idiot!

 

[GuppyWN]

Ben,

Since you asked I won't vote for anything less than 5% raise EACH year of the contract and 10% 401k match with no upper limit. For starters. And the company is on the hook for retro pay since last August.

Gup

 

[bubbers44]

Unfortunately the legacy carriers now make much less than Fedex so we can't compare airplane pay any more.

 

[jonjuan]

The majority of that group averages 50 years old with families, living in areas where the cost of living generally isn't the lowest.

Dallas Forth Worth is below the national average in cost of living, FWIW. As the national average income is approximately $60,000, I'd say $115,000 is well above middle income. The average DOCTOR in the DFW Metroplex doesn't make $115K.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Dallas Forth Worth is below the national average in cost of living, FWIW. As the national average income is approximately $60,000, I'd say $115,000 is well above middle income. The average DOCTOR in the DFW Metroplex doesn't make $115K.

You're right. I left out DFW as a balancing factor in what I posted.

They generally have been one of the problems for APA getting raises. A good part of the union leadership lives there and many can't seem to understand why pilots at every other crew base have a problem finding a 3500 sq/ft pool home for 275K, <30 minutes from sign in.

 

[HA25]

Ben,

Since you asked I won't vote for anything less than 5% raise EACH year of the contract and 10% 401k match with no upper limit. For starters. And the company is on the hook for retro pay since last August.

Gup

Bravo! I wish the best for you guys.. There was a time that I would have said that ALL LCC's were the bane of our profession, but the truth is, WN has held the bar up for pax carriers pretty much the past few years, and to their credit, are not giving up on deserved improvements.. especially to your QOL.

The fact is gentleman, there is a REAL shortage of qualified, experienced, and clean (FAA and training records) pilots developing, and it may well be time for us to take control of the downward spiral that has been happening for 5 years now.

 

[AA717driver]

The airlines don't care about "qualified and experienced". They just want someone who will work for the lowest pay and won't bitch about it.

It will take more unity than we have now to change the course. Witness the recent back and forth between the Delta and AWA pilots. The "my airline is better than your airline" mentality (read: road block to unity) still exits.

Apparently, management has found their new wedge to separate the groups--age 65. It hasn't even become a reality and the "haves v. have nots" battle is already raging. Our window of opportunity will be long gone before the pi$$ing over age 65 stops and we realize what happened--AGAIN! TC

P.S.--I guess I just answered the question I had about who was driving the age 65 thing. Only a handful of pilots are squabbling about it. Management was "apparently" sitting on the sidelines and Congress wasn't making it a BIG issue. Now, I understand why. Some major change happens without an obvious motivator and you can bet it's for the benefit of management.

So, when I make a comment about "frosted-tip, backpack-toting, i-pod-wearing greedy punks" and the aforementioned group fires back at us "depends-wearing, alzheimered, geriatrics" we're BOTH doing management's job for them.

 

[Vne]

The '92 hires at AA have yet to upgrade. And, anyone making $115/hr. as an FO is at the 12 year payscale on the 757.

Unless ,that is, if you were a 15 yr Captain at TWA then you are furloughed and are NOT making anything. I cant wait for APA to call a strike.......ya go for it.

 

[Gorilla]

I can't believe the PUP hasn't been emphasized more. Guys are hacked because management's hand is in our pockets rooting around, and it's not our junk they're grabbing, it's out wallets. The pay we gave up years ago is somehow, magically, ending up in their swollen bank accounts as yet another round of "bonuses" for their oh so hard work. I'm out a quarter million since 2002 when you look at my W-2's. I hope that cash at least has bought a manager something cool like a nice sailboat. When I'm yet again overhead Miami towards Caracas, and another night in Chavez-Land, I can look down on my boat cruising the Caribbean, and pretend I'm on it - choking the life out of the ba$tard and dumping his corpse overboard to feed the sharks.

We're REALLY pissed. Watch out in April.

 

[AA717driver]

Come on, Gorilla, you know Hetterman earned every dime of his PUP...

If you dream comes true they won't be able to seat a jury in MIA. But, just to be safe, do it in Bahamian waters. I hear the legal system is a little more "relaxed" there. TC

 

[hoover]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

 

[AA717driver]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

Yep. Guess you're right. I'll settle for nothing more than Skybus pay and no benefits... TC

 

[PositionandHold]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

That's what the management at Enron err... the airlines want you to believe.

I wish them the best and hope they take a hard stance and set a new bar for everyone else.

The day I get on a 121 carrier I will be picketing with any pilot, I don't care which airline they work for.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

Finally, a voice of sensibility on this thread.

This pilot understands the the AA pilots should just thank their lucky stars that they even have a job. It sounds like the big bucks are going where they belong - the executive suite.

No wonder AA is such a well oiled machine.

Keep those big bonuses flowing to the exec suite to retain that "top talent"!!

 

[B6Driver]

Unless ,that is, if you were a 15 yr Captain at TWA then you are furloughed and are NOT making anything. I cant wait for APA to call a strike.......ya go for it.

The fun will begin then huh.
Many can't wait....................

 

[B737Dvr]

AA does have an unproductive, antiquated contract. It fits perfectly with AMR's antiquated bureaucracy and 1880's management style.

Why "give" AMR a more productive contract when much of the productivity will be wasted. AMR won't let go of the leash even if the pilots agreed to a SWA-style contract.

Example: AA says they have a high incidence of sick calls. They have a large number of trips in open time. Most pilots at most bases are not allowed to trade into trips that are in open time due to staffing shortages. Viola! AA has a large number of sick calls. They have been told WHY they have people calling in sick and they have been told how to solve it. But they won't.

It took a near bankruptcy for AA to adopt single engine taxi to save fuel (after a couple of years of former TWA management presenting statistics on fuel savings). The bureaucracy in Flight Ops. alone rivals the U.S. Government.

AMR has only to look across town for an example of how to run an effecient airline but they are blinded by their enmity toward their own employees.TC

amen brother!!!!
i believe this is the pervasive mindset that has infected most management at most airlines. a good reason why herb over at wn and bethune over at CAL had must success...is because they viewed labor not as pawns in their boardroom games, but as TEAM-MATES.
it bothers me to read the Chairman's message on the in-flight magazines when at the end they say: on behalf of the XXXXXX people that work here, we like to say thank you! BS!

If the public only knew half of what goes on.....every moronic executive would be doing the PUBLIC dance of shame like neeleman is doing.
he however has the balls and sincerity to admit wrongdoing, fix it and move forward.
but alas, i guess my little tirade is meaningless when congress doesnt include as part of sarbanes-oxley a clause to go after executive pay packages when the company they run into chap 11 dumps it's worker's pensions and pisses away the billions in cash it had in the bank. perhaps carty and mullin are laughing it up on some plush resort planning their next rape!