For AMR, a Pilot-Salary Fight Looms

[AA717driver]

The airlines don't care about "qualified and experienced". They just want someone who will work for the lowest pay and won't bitch about it.

It will take more unity than we have now to change the course. Witness the recent back and forth between the Delta and AWA pilots. The "my airline is better than your airline" mentality (read: road block to unity) still exits.

Apparently, management has found their new wedge to separate the groups--age 65. It hasn't even become a reality and the "haves v. have nots" battle is already raging. Our window of opportunity will be long gone before the pi$$ing over age 65 stops and we realize what happened--AGAIN! TC

P.S.--I guess I just answered the question I had about who was driving the age 65 thing. Only a handful of pilots are squabbling about it. Management was "apparently" sitting on the sidelines and Congress wasn't making it a BIG issue. Now, I understand why. Some major change happens without an obvious motivator and you can bet it's for the benefit of management.

So, when I make a comment about "frosted-tip, backpack-toting, i-pod-wearing greedy punks" and the aforementioned group fires back at us "depends-wearing, alzheimered, geriatrics" we're BOTH doing management's job for them.

 

[Vne]

The '92 hires at AA have yet to upgrade. And, anyone making $115/hr. as an FO is at the 12 year payscale on the 757.

Unless ,that is, if you were a 15 yr Captain at TWA then you are furloughed and are NOT making anything. I cant wait for APA to call a strike.......ya go for it.

 

[Gorilla]

I can't believe the PUP hasn't been emphasized more. Guys are hacked because management's hand is in our pockets rooting around, and it's not our junk they're grabbing, it's out wallets. The pay we gave up years ago is somehow, magically, ending up in their swollen bank accounts as yet another round of "bonuses" for their oh so hard work. I'm out a quarter million since 2002 when you look at my W-2's. I hope that cash at least has bought a manager something cool like a nice sailboat. When I'm yet again overhead Miami towards Caracas, and another night in Chavez-Land, I can look down on my boat cruising the Caribbean, and pretend I'm on it - choking the life out of the ba$tard and dumping his corpse overboard to feed the sharks.

We're REALLY pissed. Watch out in April.

 

[AA717driver]

Come on, Gorilla, you know Hetterman earned every dime of his PUP...

If you dream comes true they won't be able to seat a jury in MIA. But, just to be safe, do it in Bahamian waters. I hear the legal system is a little more "relaxed" there. TC

 

[hoover]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

 

[AA717driver]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

Yep. Guess you're right. I'll settle for nothing more than Skybus pay and no benefits... TC

 

[PositionandHold]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

That's what the management at Enron err... the airlines want you to believe.

I wish them the best and hope they take a hard stance and set a new bar for everyone else.

The day I get on a 121 carrier I will be picketing with any pilot, I don't care which airline they work for.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

AA has the highest pay of the legacy carriers, and still has pensions. It seems to me that "taking it back" will eventually result in bankruptcy, pay cuts, and lost pensions.

Finally, a voice of sensibility on this thread.

This pilot understands the the AA pilots should just thank their lucky stars that they even have a job. It sounds like the big bucks are going where they belong - the executive suite.

No wonder AA is such a well oiled machine.

Keep those big bonuses flowing to the exec suite to retain that "top talent"!!

 

[B6Driver]

Unless ,that is, if you were a 15 yr Captain at TWA then you are furloughed and are NOT making anything. I cant wait for APA to call a strike.......ya go for it.

The fun will begin then huh.
Many can't wait....................

 

[B737Dvr]

AA does have an unproductive, antiquated contract. It fits perfectly with AMR's antiquated bureaucracy and 1880's management style.

Why "give" AMR a more productive contract when much of the productivity will be wasted. AMR won't let go of the leash even if the pilots agreed to a SWA-style contract.

Example: AA says they have a high incidence of sick calls. They have a large number of trips in open time. Most pilots at most bases are not allowed to trade into trips that are in open time due to staffing shortages. Viola! AA has a large number of sick calls. They have been told WHY they have people calling in sick and they have been told how to solve it. But they won't.

It took a near bankruptcy for AA to adopt single engine taxi to save fuel (after a couple of years of former TWA management presenting statistics on fuel savings). The bureaucracy in Flight Ops. alone rivals the U.S. Government.

AMR has only to look across town for an example of how to run an effecient airline but they are blinded by their enmity toward their own employees.TC

amen brother!!!!
i believe this is the pervasive mindset that has infected most management at most airlines. a good reason why herb over at wn and bethune over at CAL had must success...is because they viewed labor not as pawns in their boardroom games, but as TEAM-MATES.
it bothers me to read the Chairman's message on the in-flight magazines when at the end they say: on behalf of the XXXXXX people that work here, we like to say thank you! BS!

If the public only knew half of what goes on.....every moronic executive would be doing the PUBLIC dance of shame like neeleman is doing.
he however has the balls and sincerity to admit wrongdoing, fix it and move forward.
but alas, i guess my little tirade is meaningless when congress doesnt include as part of sarbanes-oxley a clause to go after executive pay packages when the company they run into chap 11 dumps it's worker's pensions and pisses away the billions in cash it had in the bank. perhaps carty and mullin are laughing it up on some plush resort planning their next rape!

 

[HA25]

Unless ,that is, if you were a 15 yr Captain at TWA then you are furloughed and are NOT making anything. I cant wait for APA to call a strike.......ya go for it.

so let me get this straight. AA buys TWA out of BK, saves your jobs, and you want to cross the line when they try to fight for a new contract? No wonder you guys are hated over there...

 

[pkober]

TWA went into BK in order for the deal to go through. The day it was announced Carty and Compton made that point clear. We were not in BK when AA and TWA announced the deal.

Can of worms, prepare to be opened.

 

[100 c.i.]

so let me get this straight. AA buys TWA out of BK, saves your jobs, and you want to cross the line when they try to fight for a new contract? No wonder you guys are hated over there...

"Save Jobs" most of us have been furlough for 4 plus years, so I dont even think there will be a line to cross. Why would anyone hate someone for saving 2500 plus jobs, time to get your data straight dude?

 

[pipe]

so let me get this straight. AA buys TWA out of BK, saves your jobs, and you want to cross the line when they try to fight for a new contract? No wonder you guys are hated over there...

Has anyone seen that ESPN commercial where the guy is talking sports out of his a$$? That's how it looks when V70T5 talks about the TWA/AA deal.

Dude, you clearly have no clue whatsoever. Might I suggest you zip it until a thread that you know something about comes along.

PIPE

 

[EA6BDriver]

The airlines don't care about "qualified and experienced". They just want someone who will work for the lowest pay and won't bitch about it.

Exactly. Shortage of "clean" and highly-qualified pilots? Probably. Shortage of folks that meet the mins and willing to do just about anything to fly something big and shiny? No way.

From the VERY deep end of the furloughed pool, I wish all the APA'ers well in fighting the fight.

 

[Green]

I can't believe the PUP hasn't been emphasized more. Guys are hacked because management's hand is in our pockets rooting around, and it's not our junk they're grabbing, it's out wallets. The pay we gave up years ago is somehow, magically, ending up in their swollen bank accounts as yet another round of "bonuses" for their oh so hard work. I'm out a quarter million since 2002 when you look at my W-2's. I hope that cash at least has bought a manager something cool like a nice sailboat. When I'm yet again overhead Miami towards Caracas, and another night in Chavez-Land, I can look down on my boat cruising the Caribbean, and pretend I'm on it - choking the life out of the ba$tard and dumping his corpse overboard to feed the sharks.

We're REALLY pissed. Watch out in April.

Wonderfully written......If all the limp d$cks in this industry would read that 10 or 12 times then we might be able to restore this profession. Unfortunately the proud aviators of the past who recognized the tremendous responsibility of this profession now seem to be outnumbered by those who are just happy to fly a cool plane around and live paycheck to paycheck....Too many are all too willing to subsidize weak manangement with rock bottom wages....

 

[AA717driver]

From the VERY deep end of the furloughed pool, I wish all the APA'ers well in fighting the fight.

I hope the ramp-up continues and you get back much sooner than you could hope for! TC

P.S.--All the "Natives" I ran into who were hired after the TWA deal was announced seemed like really great people. AMR HR must have FINALLY gotten it right...

 

[canyonblue]

Ben,

Since you asked I won't vote for anything less than 5% raise EACH year of the contract and 10% 401k match with no upper limit. For starters. And the company is on the hook for retro pay since last August.

Gup

That's right Gup. Remember, the Pro/Conjob letter stated 3% raises. Sit back, relax and enjoy the flight.

 

[CSY Mon]

Nevermind....

Deleted my post, tired of picking fights with TWA guys.

RIP.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Right from the AMR acquisition paly bbok....

TWA went into BK in order for the deal to go through. The day it was announced Carty and Compton made that point clear. We were not in BK when AA and TWA announced the deal.

Can of worms, prepare to be opened.

.....That is how AMR bought Air Virginia and made it American Eagle. AV declared BK and AMR bought it for pennies on the dollar. They didn't even have to paint the airplanes!!!

 

[accinelli]

AA does have an unproductive, antiquated contract. It fits perfectly with AMR's antiquated bureaucracy and 1880's management style.

Why "give" AMR a more productive contract when much of the productivity will be wasted. AMR won't let go of the leash even if the pilots agreed to a SWA-style contract.

Example: AA says they have a high incidence of sick calls. They have a large number of trips in open time. Most pilots at most bases are not allowed to trade into trips that are in open time due to staffing shortages. Viola! AA has a large number of sick calls. They have been told WHY they have people calling in sick and they have been told how to solve it. But they won't.

It took a near bankruptcy for AA to adopt single engine taxi to save fuel (after a couple of years of former TWA management presenting statistics on fuel savings). The bureaucracy in Flight Ops. alone rivals the U.S. Government.

AMR has only to look across town for an example of how to run an effecient airline but they are blinded by their enmity toward their own employees.TC

Besides the AA pilots are still not content after giving away the China route to UAL.

 

[Hagar17]

I hope the ramp-up continues and you get back much sooner than you could hope for! TC

P.S.--All the "Natives" I ran into who were hired after the TWA deal was announced seemed like really great people. AMR HR must have FINALLY gotten it right...

It just never stops, does it?

I'm sure if TWA bought AA, we all would have gotten DOH, I'm just sure of it.

 

[Hagar17]

TWA went into BK in order for the deal to go through. The day it was announced Carty and Compton made that point clear. We were not in BK when AA and TWA announced the deal.

Can of worms, prepare to be opened.

I get so weary of hearing this. OK, TWA was NOT in BK when AMR bought them. However, right before the aquisition, TWA aircraft couldn't divert to certain airports because the vendors wouldn't sell them fuel and crewmembers were asked by hotel workers to pay for their rooms with personal credit cards.

Deny it all you want, I have a good friend that was a captain there at the end that tells these stories.

Most ex-TWA guys I talk to live squarely in fantasyland.

Rc

 

[Hagar17]

It took a near bankruptcy for AA to adopt single engine taxi to save fuel (after a couple of years of former TWA management presenting statistics on fuel savings). The bureaucracy in Flight Ops. alone rivals the U.S. Government.

Pure genius! You're right, we had never heard of single-engine taxi until the ground-breakers at TWA showed us the way. You guys saved us!

We taxied on one engine in the 727 all the time. My current coworkers don't like taxiing in the 3-holer on TWO.

Spread that BS to the chumps on FI all you want, but the guys that were there (at both places) know the truth.

 

[G4G5]

I hope the ramp-up continues and you get back much sooner than you could hope for! TC

P.S.--All the "Natives" I ran into who were hired after the TWA deal was announced seemed like really great people. AMR HR must have FINALLY gotten it right...

Not feelin the love Bro.

 

[aa73]

Hey guys, take it easy on TC, he meant what he said in a good way. You guys need to learn to read between the "cyber" lines.

73

 

[aa73]

Nevermind....

Deleted my post, tired of picking fights with TWA guys.

RIP.

There is hope for you, CSY!

 

[AA717driver]

I figured that would draw you guys out of the woodwork! I almost edited the post to make it a little less antagonistic. But nooooooo...

Ok, ok, how about "those Natives hired AFTER '90"? ALRIGHT! How about "I judge each individual on their own merits"? That should keep me out of the Rule 32 Court.TC

P.S.--Hagar: Sorry, I didn't know about the 727. The statement about the two engine aircraft is true. Those in the AA training empire (yes, they have one as has every large airline--the dog has several tails wagging it) fought the single-engine taxi for the S80's and 757/767's for several years.

As you probably know, the proceedure for the 767 fleet has been altered because people were taxiing on one engine at too heavy a weight and getting FOD in the operating engine. I think they put a weight limit on the single-engine taxi proceedure.

 

[HA25]

Has anyone seen that ESPN commercial where the guy is talking sports out of his a$$? That's how it looks when V70T5 talks about the TWA/AA deal.

Dude, you clearly have no clue whatsoever. Might I suggest you zip it until a thread that you know something about comes along.

PIPE

your right, I don't... I just know I was hired by "American" and was placed on furlough before (junior) to all of the TWA pilots that are now bitching about their situation. Do you really think the 2500 on the street was a part of the plan, or do you think 9/11 and the economic downturn had anything to do with that? Or maybe it was a conspiracy by the APA to screw the TWA guys?

I'm outta here...

 

[C-150ETOPS]

Besides the AA pilots are still not content after giving away the China route to UAL.

Funny

Do you actually believe that?