FO/Flex how would you vote to integrate??

[slowtation capt]

So, the part about the Teamsters being largely unresponsive to the NJ pilots needs wasn't pertinent. I think that was probably a huge reason they let the IBT. Bet that is why it was included in the article.

Seriously, let this part of the argument go. You hold onto it, trying to drive it into people's minds, just as any good hired union busting manager would do.

However, while you can't let the above go, you refuse to answer, respond, or acknowledge the items below.

Hmmmm, didn't the IBT get NetJets the contract that in turn got you your pay that you currently have?
After that they decided they were big enough to self support an in-house and keep all their dues to their own.

Even including Avantair as part of this is, is the most absurd comparision that you could begin to make. This is about the farthest stretch anybody could try to make. You truly are management material, I just hope that suckers don't try to believe your stretched out lies.

Avantair Failure:

" Part of the problem was that the company seems to have ssimply not charged enough. In a letter to owners in June this year the company indicated its pricing was too low saying "Our business model assumed efficiencies that never materialized and a pricing schedule based on those efficiencies."

Operational Issues

"While finance and pricing was part of the problem, the issue that really caused the company to fail was operational. The company grounded its entire fleet for three weeks in the fall of 2012. According to the FAA this was due to "at least in part because of problems accurately tracking the time in service of life limited parts, and because of the questionable reliability of its maintenance record keeping system."
Overall this grounding meant customers couldn't access their aircraft for three weeks."

"But further problems in June caused the fleet to be grounded again and the company furloughed pilots and other employees. Rumors abound that the company only had a few airworthy aircraft, out of its 57 aircraft fleet. The FAA stated the grounding was due to "at least in part because of AvantAir's problems in accurately and reliably tracking the time in service of life limited parts, and problems in transferring accurate time in service records for parts "cannibalized" from some Piaggio P-180 aircraft to other Piaggio P-180 aircraft in AvantAir's fleet." This apparently led to owners and card holders facing delays, short-notice cancellations and flights that failed to materialize"

Read more: Avantair Bankruptcy & History - Jets & Planes

 

[Praetorian]

So, the part about the Teamsters being largely unresponsive to the NJ pilots needs wasn't pertinent. I think that was probably a huge reason they let the IBT. Bet that is why it was included in the article.

1. They left the IBT because the old Airline Director DT was unresponsive to them. He retired in 09 and the new Airline Director is a much different story.

2. They also left because their numbers allowed them the option. Even with a combined group of FO/Flex pilots, that option is not available to us.

Everyone knows these are the only two reasons and anything else you try to throw at this issue is subterfuge.

We keep hearing that you personally have the respect of your fellow pilots. After all you've done and continue to do to keep them yoked to the humiliation of at-will employment, I wonder how long that will last? How long will they keep falling for it?

But I guess the most important question is, what's your motivation? Does management give you special treatment for all your union-busting efforts?

Here is an excerpt from Martin Levitt's Confessions of a union buster:

"We continued to monitor worker allegiance through the supervisor interviews and deep into the campaign formed a Vote No Committee of pro-company employees charged with rewarding workers deemed to be "loyal" to management. Those workers found themselves showered with extra time off, special favors, and other bonuses. Meanwhile the pro-union workers came to work each day to face ever-tighter scrutiny from their bosses and were forced to battle scurrilous rumors. By that time we had established an efficient communications network capable of spreading news of perks and peril throught the company in a day."

Is this what's going on?

 

[Praetorian]

Confessions of a union buster

I thought some of you might also find this interesting.

From Confessions of a union buster:

"For my campaigns I identified two key targets: the rank-and-file workers and their immediate supervisors. The supervisors (or in this case, lead check-airman) served as my front line. I took them hostage on the first day and sent them to anti-union boot camp. I know that people who didn't feel threatened wouldn't fight. So through hours of seminars, rallies, and one-on-one encounters, I taught the supervisors to despise and fear the union. I persuaded them that a union-organizing drive was a personal attack on them, a referendum on their leadership skills, and an attempt to humiliate them. I was friendly, even jovial at times, but always unforgiving as I compelled each supervisor to feel he was somehow to blame for the union push and consequently obliged to defeat it. Like any hostages, most supervisors could not resist for long. They soon came to see the fight through the eyes of their captor and went to work wringing union sympathies out of their workers."

Sound familiar?

 

[wingsnthings]

I have lost all respect for the FO pilots on here. The personal attacks show just how low you will go to try and intimidate someone into your warped sense of reality. Some of us, me, don't want a union because a lot of us that have worked for a union see that we don't need one. Just because someone doesn't back your position doesn't mean that they are paid to do so. I think that the IBT would be a horrible decision for FJ. I am sick of you FO guys saying that it is FUD if anyone disagrees with you, but you try to intimidate and scare people by the "what ifs"....that is the FUD being spread. You are pissed because you can't intimidate TWA, so you make personal attacks and accuse him of being a hired gun. Seriously?! That would be like you getting paid by the union to express your beliefs...and we know they only take $ so I doubt that is the case. I haven't posted in awhile because TWA has said everything I wanted to say, and I believe that is the case for a lot if FJ guys. I can't wait to vote NO to the IBT and hope to see it defeated, because much like you worked for your CBA, we have worked hard to make FJ what it is today. Facts show that we are far more successful. This proves to me that changing the way we do things as a pilot group would be foolish.

 

[FR8DOG777]

um yeah, I guess thats why if you log on to flight aware options has twice as many airplanes in the sky at any given time. I guess thats why a trip to simuflight would reveal how far in the dark ages your 135 standards are. You wish to ride the coat tails of us and netjets hoping your new master will continue the match game. Ride over, I'm with chainring this has been an epic waste of time trying to educate you fools in what lies ahead. Good luck, vote no when the time comes and revisit this forum in a couple years, Happy holiday! I am glad your anti-union protagonist is so much further advanced than us schleps flying the line after a 4 hour simulator programming session.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

FR8 you hit that one on the head. It is a waste of time to try to educate these guys. They are trying to make the others think that the union wants the company to fail. But we are just trying to add a layer of security to our careers. Junior just can't comprehend that.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

And what is their motivation to get on here and spew their negativity?

 

[FR8DOG777]

V1 know it all, Guess what? I hope your journey ahead fulfills all your canadian dreams. I routinely fly with self made millionaires. Please correct my spelling at any time as it may be lost in your kiss ass montreal translation suck ass speech. See you on the line dick head, assuming you pass a real 135 oral.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

um yeah, I guess thats why if you log on to flight aware options has twice as many airplanes in the sky at any given time. I guess thats why a trip to simuflight would reveal how far in the dark ages your 135 standards are. You wish to ride the coat tails of us and netjets hoping your new master will continue the match game. Ride over, I'm with chainring this has been an epic waste of time trying to educate you fools in what lies ahead. Good luck, vote no when the time comes and revisit this forum in a couple years, Happy holiday! I am glad your anti-union protagonist is so much further advanced than us schleps flying the line after a 4 hour simulator programming session.

Please educate us oh master on what dark ages we live in. Last time I checked we are also training under 135. Those rules are very outdated which is why we have an approved 121 training program we are about to introduce.

Do you know how many instructors at SF have been fired from FJ because they can't fly an airplane? Answer is, a lot.

You probably enjoy SF because you are never pushed or challenged.

How does it feel t be trained by someone who has never actually flown the airplane? Bet they do a great job telling you how it is should happen according to the book.

Please, please get me started about the differences in our training, you won't like the TRUTH.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

V1 know it all, Guess what? I hope your journey ahead fulfills all your canadian dreams. I routinely fly with self made millionaires. Please correct my spelling at any time as it may be lost in your kiss ass montreal translation suck ass speech. See you on the line dick head, assuming you pass a real 135 oral.

Since you seem to know SO MUCH about training, please tell me what we aren't doing on our FAKE 135 orals?

 

[CL-350]

um yeah, I guess thats why if you log on to flight aware options has twice as many airplanes in the sky at any given time. I guess thats why a trip to simuflight would reveal how far in the dark ages your 135 standards are. You wish to ride the coat tails of us and netjets hoping your new master will continue the match game. Ride over, I'm with chainring this has been an epic waste of time trying to educate you fools in what lies ahead. Good luck, vote no when the time comes and revisit this forum in a couple years, Happy holiday! I am glad your anti-union protagonist is so much further advanced than us schleps flying the line after a 4 hour simulator programming session.

No dog, once again you are wrong. Most the time flightaware shows considerably more Flex airplanes in the air than Flops. You not only have to look at LXJ but also BJS to get the true number. But you were not smart enough to figure that out were you Einstein. Try it over the next few days and prove me wrong. Once again, don't petition for single carrier and you get to keep your union.
Someone on the Flops side please educate me and tell me why we can't exist as 2 pilot groups.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Once again another false argument.

 

[FR8DOG777]

So were back to that eh Einstein? Superior airframes, superior business model, superior aviator skills, superior training. I guess all that hubbub around simuflight about your 135 class must have been made up by a disgruntled flops pilot. There is no convincing you superior aviators about anything from here on out. Atleast the last boy scout was smart enough to figure out whats going on. Put your faith in Lord Ricci and Princess Deanna along with your 1 page employment agreement. Netjets paved the salary, Flight Options paved the work rules, and Flex Jet faltered. I am reminded about an A/C D/C song, who made who? Like I said, avoid the fight at all costs, we'll get the job done for you!

 

[doh]

May I have the definition of a real 135 oral?

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1 know it all, Guess what? I hope your journey ahead fulfills all your canadian dreams. I routinely fly with self made millionaires. Please correct my spelling at any time as it may be lost in your kiss ass montreal translation suck ass speech. See you on the line dick head, assuming you pass a real 135 oral.

You've got to be the most idiotic person I've ever debated. Who could possibly ever take you serious? Especially after what you said you'd like to do to DW on a couch in Dallas? Everyone remember that comment? I have no connections to Canada and would be just as happy if I never went to Montreal again and I assure you that I've never kissed anyone's posterior to get where I'm at. And who would I be sucking up to on here anyway??? I ragged on your routinely incoherent posts because it just illustrated your ignorance and you never seem to let me down with each post. I actually look forward to meeting you guys one day and debating face to face as I've done three times in the past couple of weeks. One being one of your union reps and another little short feller who can't wait to get his hands on a CL300. Both had the talking points down but the little guy wasn't prepared for any further debate.

 

[slowtation capt]

Seriously, let this part of the argument go. You hold onto it, trying to drive it into people's minds, just as any good hired union busting manager would do.

However, while you can't let the above go, you refuse to answer, respond, or acknowledge the items below.

Even including Avantair as part of this is, is the most absurd comparision that you could begin to make. This is about the farthest stretch anybody could try to make. You truly are management material, I just hope that suckers don't try to believe your stretched out lies.

Avantair Failure:

" Part of the problem was that the company seems to have ssimply not charged enough. In a letter to owners in June this year the company indicated its pricing was too low saying "Our business model assumed efficiencies that never materialized and a pricing schedule based on those efficiencies."

Operational Issues

"While finance and pricing was part of the problem, the issue that really caused the company to fail was operational. The company grounded its entire fleet for three weeks in the fall of 2012. According to the FAA this was due to "at least in part because of problems accurately tracking the time in service of life limited parts, and because of the questionable reliability of its maintenance record keeping system."
Overall this grounding meant customers couldn't access their aircraft for three weeks."

"But further problems in June caused the fleet to be grounded again and the company furloughed pilots and other employees. Rumors abound that the company only had a few airworthy aircraft, out of its 57 aircraft fleet. The FAA stated the grounding was due to "at least in part because of AvantAir's problems in accurately and reliably tracking the time in service of life limited parts, and problems in transferring accurate time in service records for parts "cannibalized" from some Piaggio P-180 aircraft to other Piaggio P-180 aircraft in AvantAir's fleet." This apparently led to owners and card holders facing delays, short-notice cancellations and flights that failed to materialize"

Read more: Avantair Bankruptcy & History - Jets & Planes

Hmmmm, didn't the IBT get NetJets the contract that in turn got you your pay that you currently have?
After that they decided they were big enough to self support an in-house and keep all their dues to their own.

So you are just gonna dodge this TWA??

Please educate us oh master on what dark ages we live in. Last time I checked we are also training under 135. Those rules are very outdated which is why we have an approved 121 training program we are about to introduce.

Do you know how many instructors at SF have been fired from FJ because they can't fly an airplane? Answer is, a lot.

You probably enjoy SF because you are never pushed or challenged.

How does it feel t be trained by someone who has never actually flown the airplane? Bet they do a great job telling you how it is should happen according to the book.

Please, please get me started about the differences in our training, you won't like the TRUTH.

So the Simi instructors actually work for FlexJet, that's interesting.

 

[CL-350]

So were back to that eh Einstein? Superior airframes, superior business model, superior aviator skills, superior training. I guess all that hubbub around simuflight about your 135 class must have been made up by a disgruntled flops pilot. There is no convincing you superior aviators about anything from here on out. Atleast the last boy scout was smart enough to figure out whats going on. Put your faith in Lord Ricci and Princess Deanna along with your 1 page employment agreement. Netjets paved the salary, Flight Options paved the work rules, and Flex Jet faltered. I am reminded about an A/C D/C song, who made who? Like I said, avoid the fight at all costs, we'll get the job done for you!

Uhh, ok. You were using flightaware info to support your argument and I called you out on it. I don't know anything about us being superior in any way. And yes i will gladly admit Netjets helped me get 2 large raises. I don' t think Flops had anything to do with it. As far as our 135 training being inferior, thats a new one as I have not been on this website in a month. Is this the new attack on Flex pilots that we are not well trained? Please elaborate. By the way, I was told you guys do your 297s in the actual jet and not a simulator, is that true?

 

[BE40Driver]

Yes Flops alternate doing our 297 rides in the aircraft and the Simulator. Once in each per year and the 299 ride in the aircraft.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So you are just gonna dodge this TWA??



So the Simi instructors actually work for FlexJet, that's interesting.

I didn't say that the IBT had anything to do with the failure of avantair. I just showed that the IBT doesn't represent the upper echelon of the industry.

Yes, all of our training (ground school, simulator and airplane) is conducted by FJ employees who actually fly the airplane. The only exception is the initial systems GS can be taught by Bombardier instructors.

The only training we do in the airplane is IOE. We of course do 299s in the plane, but there is no training associated with that, just a check.

You guys seem to know everything about FJ, how is it that you didn't know we had in house instructors. Heck, I figure you guys even know what I had for dinner last night (a chicken burrito), but I am sure you already knew that.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Yes Flops alternate doing our 297 rides in the aircraft and the Simulator. Once in each per year and the 299 ride in the aircraft.

I know you meant to say a 293/297 in the sim since you are required to have an annual 293 for every equipment you are qualified on.

We do 2 training events per year in the sim.

Do you give all your pilots a 297 in the aircraft or only if they match up with a check airman? I am not sure how you could document instrument currency if you do not.