FO/Flex how would you vote to integrate??

[CL-350]

um yeah, I guess thats why if you log on to flight aware options has twice as many airplanes in the sky at any given time. I guess thats why a trip to simuflight would reveal how far in the dark ages your 135 standards are. You wish to ride the coat tails of us and netjets hoping your new master will continue the match game. Ride over, I'm with chainring this has been an epic waste of time trying to educate you fools in what lies ahead. Good luck, vote no when the time comes and revisit this forum in a couple years, Happy holiday! I am glad your anti-union protagonist is so much further advanced than us schleps flying the line after a 4 hour simulator programming session.

No dog, once again you are wrong. Most the time flightaware shows considerably more Flex airplanes in the air than Flops. You not only have to look at LXJ but also BJS to get the true number. But you were not smart enough to figure that out were you Einstein. Try it over the next few days and prove me wrong. Once again, don't petition for single carrier and you get to keep your union.
Someone on the Flops side please educate me and tell me why we can't exist as 2 pilot groups.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Once again another false argument.

 

[FR8DOG777]

So were back to that eh Einstein? Superior airframes, superior business model, superior aviator skills, superior training. I guess all that hubbub around simuflight about your 135 class must have been made up by a disgruntled flops pilot. There is no convincing you superior aviators about anything from here on out. Atleast the last boy scout was smart enough to figure out whats going on. Put your faith in Lord Ricci and Princess Deanna along with your 1 page employment agreement. Netjets paved the salary, Flight Options paved the work rules, and Flex Jet faltered. I am reminded about an A/C D/C song, who made who? Like I said, avoid the fight at all costs, we'll get the job done for you!

 

[doh]

May I have the definition of a real 135 oral?

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1 know it all, Guess what? I hope your journey ahead fulfills all your canadian dreams. I routinely fly with self made millionaires. Please correct my spelling at any time as it may be lost in your kiss ass montreal translation suck ass speech. See you on the line dick head, assuming you pass a real 135 oral.

You've got to be the most idiotic person I've ever debated. Who could possibly ever take you serious? Especially after what you said you'd like to do to DW on a couch in Dallas? Everyone remember that comment? I have no connections to Canada and would be just as happy if I never went to Montreal again and I assure you that I've never kissed anyone's posterior to get where I'm at. And who would I be sucking up to on here anyway??? I ragged on your routinely incoherent posts because it just illustrated your ignorance and you never seem to let me down with each post. I actually look forward to meeting you guys one day and debating face to face as I've done three times in the past couple of weeks. One being one of your union reps and another little short feller who can't wait to get his hands on a CL300. Both had the talking points down but the little guy wasn't prepared for any further debate.

 

[slowtation capt]

Seriously, let this part of the argument go. You hold onto it, trying to drive it into people's minds, just as any good hired union busting manager would do.

However, while you can't let the above go, you refuse to answer, respond, or acknowledge the items below.

Even including Avantair as part of this is, is the most absurd comparision that you could begin to make. This is about the farthest stretch anybody could try to make. You truly are management material, I just hope that suckers don't try to believe your stretched out lies.

Avantair Failure:

" Part of the problem was that the company seems to have ssimply not charged enough. In a letter to owners in June this year the company indicated its pricing was too low saying "Our business model assumed efficiencies that never materialized and a pricing schedule based on those efficiencies."

Operational Issues

"While finance and pricing was part of the problem, the issue that really caused the company to fail was operational. The company grounded its entire fleet for three weeks in the fall of 2012. According to the FAA this was due to "at least in part because of problems accurately tracking the time in service of life limited parts, and because of the questionable reliability of its maintenance record keeping system."
Overall this grounding meant customers couldn't access their aircraft for three weeks."

"But further problems in June caused the fleet to be grounded again and the company furloughed pilots and other employees. Rumors abound that the company only had a few airworthy aircraft, out of its 57 aircraft fleet. The FAA stated the grounding was due to "at least in part because of AvantAir's problems in accurately and reliably tracking the time in service of life limited parts, and problems in transferring accurate time in service records for parts "cannibalized" from some Piaggio P-180 aircraft to other Piaggio P-180 aircraft in AvantAir's fleet." This apparently led to owners and card holders facing delays, short-notice cancellations and flights that failed to materialize"

Read more: Avantair Bankruptcy & History - Jets & Planes

Hmmmm, didn't the IBT get NetJets the contract that in turn got you your pay that you currently have?
After that they decided they were big enough to self support an in-house and keep all their dues to their own.

So you are just gonna dodge this TWA??

Please educate us oh master on what dark ages we live in. Last time I checked we are also training under 135. Those rules are very outdated which is why we have an approved 121 training program we are about to introduce.

Do you know how many instructors at SF have been fired from FJ because they can't fly an airplane? Answer is, a lot.

You probably enjoy SF because you are never pushed or challenged.

How does it feel t be trained by someone who has never actually flown the airplane? Bet they do a great job telling you how it is should happen according to the book.

Please, please get me started about the differences in our training, you won't like the TRUTH.

So the Simi instructors actually work for FlexJet, that's interesting.

 

[CL-350]

So were back to that eh Einstein? Superior airframes, superior business model, superior aviator skills, superior training. I guess all that hubbub around simuflight about your 135 class must have been made up by a disgruntled flops pilot. There is no convincing you superior aviators about anything from here on out. Atleast the last boy scout was smart enough to figure out whats going on. Put your faith in Lord Ricci and Princess Deanna along with your 1 page employment agreement. Netjets paved the salary, Flight Options paved the work rules, and Flex Jet faltered. I am reminded about an A/C D/C song, who made who? Like I said, avoid the fight at all costs, we'll get the job done for you!

Uhh, ok. You were using flightaware info to support your argument and I called you out on it. I don't know anything about us being superior in any way. And yes i will gladly admit Netjets helped me get 2 large raises. I don' t think Flops had anything to do with it. As far as our 135 training being inferior, thats a new one as I have not been on this website in a month. Is this the new attack on Flex pilots that we are not well trained? Please elaborate. By the way, I was told you guys do your 297s in the actual jet and not a simulator, is that true?

 

[BE40Driver]

Yes Flops alternate doing our 297 rides in the aircraft and the Simulator. Once in each per year and the 299 ride in the aircraft.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So you are just gonna dodge this TWA??



So the Simi instructors actually work for FlexJet, that's interesting.

I didn't say that the IBT had anything to do with the failure of avantair. I just showed that the IBT doesn't represent the upper echelon of the industry.

Yes, all of our training (ground school, simulator and airplane) is conducted by FJ employees who actually fly the airplane. The only exception is the initial systems GS can be taught by Bombardier instructors.

The only training we do in the airplane is IOE. We of course do 299s in the plane, but there is no training associated with that, just a check.

You guys seem to know everything about FJ, how is it that you didn't know we had in house instructors. Heck, I figure you guys even know what I had for dinner last night (a chicken burrito), but I am sure you already knew that.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Yes Flops alternate doing our 297 rides in the aircraft and the Simulator. Once in each per year and the 299 ride in the aircraft.

I know you meant to say a 293/297 in the sim since you are required to have an annual 293 for every equipment you are qualified on.

We do 2 training events per year in the sim.

Do you give all your pilots a 297 in the aircraft or only if they match up with a check airman? I am not sure how you could document instrument currency if you do not.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

So were back to that eh Einstein? Superior airframes, superior business model, superior aviator skills, superior training. I guess all that hubbub around simuflight about your 135 class must have been made up by a disgruntled flops pilot. There is no convincing you superior aviators about anything from here on out. Atleast the last boy scout was smart enough to figure out whats going on. Put your faith in Lord Ricci and Princess Deanna along with your 1 page employment agreement. Netjets paved the salary, Flight Options paved the work rules, and Flex Jet faltered. I am reminded about an A/C D/C song, who made who? Like I said, avoid the fight at all costs, we'll get the job done for you!

You contract has done nothing for us genius. We did piggy back on the NJ pay raises, but nothing we have is because of you. Be careful not to break your arm patting yourself on the back.

I think the fact that several of your pilots have stated they can't wait to come fly our Challenger aircraft shows that at least they think they are superior aircraft. Funny thing about it is if they did that while operating under your contract it appears to me that it wouldn't even be a pay raise unless they came off the BE400 or Phenom. So wanting to come fly a different plane just because you can either shows you want to fly it because you view it as better or you are just trying to be a dick to the FJ pilots. I feel there is a little bit of both.

 

[slowtation capt]

Challenger aircraft shows that at least they think they are superior aircraft.

Find one pilot, one person in the corporate aviation industry that doesn't think the Challenger 300 is a great airplane and superior to most other aircraft in it's category.
I personally think the C300 is a great airplane, Bombardier did a great job in the design and execution of the airplane.

I know you meant to say a 293/297 in the sim since you are required to have an annual 293 for every equipment you are qualified on.

We do 2 training events per year in the sim.

Do you give all your pilots a 297 in the aircraft or only if they match up with a check airman? I am not sure how you could document instrument currency if you do not.

We go to Simi annually, 8 days, 1 day of travel, 2 days 135 ground school, 5 days of aircraft recurrent.

Our 6 month check is done on the road with a check airmen, a 8 rotation is spent with the check airmen. The purpose of spending the entire rotation with the check airmen, is for your 6 month check and annual line training. They also want to spend a rotation with you, because they feel that everyone gets on their best behavior if you are with a check airmen just for the ride.
If you spend 8 days, they believe the bad habits against SOP's will come out, and so they can correct and train accordingly.

Nothing dangerous is done in the airplane for the ride, the check airmen have minimums for doing single engine work, approaches, etc....
Never once did I feel that a check airmen was trying to do something that shouldn't be done in the airplane.
By the time they reduce an engine to simulate a failure you have just about finished your after takeoff check anyways. It's all very benign, and I believe a lot of people make more of it than necessary.

I didn't say that the IBT had anything to do with the failure of avantair. I just showed that the IBT doesn't represent the upper echelon of the industry.

I have watched the track record of the IBT in the fractionals.

Netjets - dropped the IBT for an in house union
Citation Shares - slowly winding down
Avantair - in the process of voting in the IBT

I understand that all of these were not the IBTs fault, but the IBT sure doesn't seem to bring stability to fractional companies.

I don't know, it sure sounds to me like you are trying to blame the IBT for Avantairs failure.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Another one from the union busting handbook. The IBT sure doesn't seem to bring stability to fractional companies. Might seem that way to you because of the location of your nose.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Find one pilot, one person in the corporate aviation industry that doesn't think the Challenger 300 is a great airplane and superior to most other aircraft in it's category.
I personally think the C300 is a great airplane, Bombardier did a great job in the design and execution of the airplane.



We go to Simi annually, 8 days, 1 day of travel, 2 days 135 ground school, 5 days of aircraft recurrent.

Our 6 month check is done on the road with a check airmen, a 8 rotation is spent with the check airmen. The purpose of spending the entire rotation with the check airmen, is for your 6 month check and annual line training. They also want to spend a rotation with you, because they feel that everyone gets on their best behavior if you are with a check airmen just for the ride.
If you spend 8 days, they believe the bad habits against SOP's will come out, and so they can correct and train accordingly.

Nothing dangerous is done in the airplane for the ride, the check airmen have minimums for doing single engine work, approaches, etc....
Never once did I feel that a check airmen was trying to do something that shouldn't be done in the airplane.
By the time they reduce an engine to simulate a failure you have just about finished your after takeoff check anyways. It's all very benign, and I believe a lot of people make more of it than necessary.






I don't know, it sure sounds to me like you are trying to blame the IBT for Avantairs failure.

What altitude do you do the stalls, steep turns and unusual attitudes?

I actually am not saying your training in the airplane is unsafe, I actually think it doesn't adequately check the performance of your single engine maneuvers. If you are not failing an engine until you have completed the after takeoff checklist how do you feel that accurately meets the requirements of the ATP PTS? I know you have waivers and minimum altitudes for your single engine work, but that sounds like a stretch.

I think the only way to safely do single engine work is in a simulator. You can fail what you need to fail where there is never a fear of real danger. With all of that new things that the FAA requires on checkrides I would find it a challenge to check those in the airplane.

Do you do a maximum effort landing after you have calculated the required runway to verify that you can stop it within the published distance plus a small factor?

Are you flying approaches using fail down instruments? One precision and one min precision must be done on EVERY check ride.

When was the last time you were asked to fly your single engine hand flown precision approach raw data. The PTS requires it to do done on at least some check rides.

What view limiting device do you use that doesn't restrict the view of your partner? I would be vary concerned flying in an airport environment with any type of hindrance to my view.

I think spending an entire rotation with a check airman is a great idea. We are not required to do that here, but I would say 75% of the time your 299 check is done during a rotation spent with a check airman.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Another one from the union busting handbook. The IBT sure doesn't seem to bring stability to fractional companies. Might seem that way to you because of the location of your nose.

Translation - you are saying things I don't like, so I will insult you.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

I don't know, it sure sounds to me like you are trying to blame the IBT for Avantairs failure.

I don't believe that the Avantair pilots had even voted for representation under the IBT. I know they were in the process of getting the vote.

I was in no way saying that the IBT led to the failure of Avantair. I was saying that the IBT only seems to represent carriers that are struggling.

Sokol took over as chairman of NetJets in August 2009, after NetJets founder Richard Santulli was forced out of the company. The company was losing millions of dollars per year. Sokol was also chairman of MidAmerican Energy Holdings and Johns Mansville.


Here is the source article.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-under-new-leadership-after-sokol-resignation

Just showing that the IBT usually represent financially struggling fractionals.

 

[slowtation capt]

I don't believe that the Avantair pilots had even voted for representation under the IBT. I know they were in the process of getting the vote.

I was in no way saying that the IBT led to the failure of Avantair. I was saying that the IBT only seems to represent carriers that are struggling.

Sokol took over as chairman of NetJets in August 2009, after NetJets founder Richard Santulli was forced out of the company. The company was losing millions of dollars per year. Sokol was also chairman of MidAmerican Energy Holdings and Johns Mansville.


Here is the source article.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-under-new-leadership-after-sokol-resignation

Just showing that the IBT usually represent financially struggling fractionals.

You're basically making an inference.

 

[slowtation capt]

What altitude do you do the stalls, steep turns and unusual attitudes?

Approx - 15,000ft

If you are not failing an engine until you have completed the after takeoff checklist how do you feel that accurately meets the requirements of the ATP PTS? I know you have waivers and minimum altitudes for your single engine work, but that sounds like a stretch.

I think it's 500ft agl, not to be done with an airport elevation above XYZ. That was an exaggeration about being done with the checklist, because it is so benign.

Do you do a maximum effort landing after you have calculated the required runway to verify that you can stop it within the published distance plus a small factor?

Yes, but not to verify, to prove that we can do it to the checkairmen. So they know when a short runway trip occurs that we have proved we can fly the airplane and perform AFM #'s and performance.

When was the last time you were asked to fly your single engine hand flown precision approach raw data. The PTS requires it to do done on at least some check rides.

Last recurrent at Simi

What view limiting device do you use that doesn't restrict the view of your partner? I would be vary concerned flying in an airport environment with any type of hindrance to my view.

We put up the sun screens on the PF's side of the airplane and leave them off on the PNF-Checkairmen side.
Kidding, have you ever heard of something called Foggles? Have you never done any kind of instructing?

Are you flying approaches using fail down instruments? One precision and one min precision must be done on EVERY check ride.

Fail down? Never heard that term before. Are you saying that instead of the FMS, you use just the localizer?
Not familiar with the requirement to use "fail down" instruments on every check ride, which reg. is that?

 

[Praetorian]

I don't believe that the Avantair pilots had even voted for representation under the IBT. I know they were in the process of getting the vote.

I was in no way saying that the IBT led to the failure of Avantair. I was saying that the IBT only seems to represent carriers that are struggling.

Sokol took over as chairman of NetJets in August 2009, after NetJets founder Richard Santulli was forced out of the company. The company was losing millions of dollars per year. Sokol was also chairman of MidAmerican Energy Holdings and Johns Mansville.


Here is the source article.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-under-new-leadership-after-sokol-resignation

Just showing that the IBT usually represent financially struggling fractionals.

Avantair was represented by the UTU.

http://ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainalerts/2013-02-19/avantair-pilots-vote-union-representation

It was worth a try though. But you lose points for inaccuracy.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Approx - 15,000ft



I think it's 500ft agl, not to be done with an airport elevation above XYZ. That was an exaggeration about being done with the checklist, because it is so benign.



Yes, but not to verify, to prove that we can do it to the checkairmen. So they know when a short runway trip occurs that we have proved we can fly the airplane and perform AFM #'s and performance.



Last recurrent at Simi



We put up the sun screens on the PF's side of the airplane and leave them off on the PNF-Checkairmen side.
Kidding, have you ever heard of something called Foggles? Have you never done any kind of instructing?



Fail down? Never heard that term before. Are you saying that instead of the FMS, you use just the localizer?
Not familiar with the requirement to use "fail down" instruments on every check ride, which reg. is that?

Fail down, as in using a backup display. Failing a PFD or MFD or reverting to a standby instrument.

ATP PTS AOA V
Non precision approaches, 2nd note says at least one non precision approach should be flown with reference to backup or "fail down" instrumentation or navigation display depending on the aicraft's avionics configuration.

There is a similar note in the precision approach part. It is talked about in the raw data section.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Avantair was represented by the UTU.

http://ainonline.com/aviation-news/ainalerts/2013-02-19/avantair-pilots-vote-union-representation

It was worth a try though. But you lose points for inaccuracy.

I stand corrected then.

Thanks for finding the source.

 

[The Architect]

Piggy Back on Teamsters CBAs

You contract has done nothing for us genius. We did piggy back on the NJ pay raises, but nothing we have is because of you. Be careful not to break your arm patting yourself on the back.

The Netjets Pilots CBAs were negotiated by the Teamsters. The attorneys and consultants the were part of the negotiating team were employed by Local 1108 (Teamsters).

Those same attorneys and consultants were employed by Local 1108 (Teamsters) and on the negotiating team that negotiated the Flight Options Pilots CBA. That contract was negotiated in some of the worse economic conditions since the great depression. Yet, they reached exemplary work rules.

On another note, NJASAP and the Teamsters have a great working relationship. They have created coalitions on more than one front to further union representation throughout the fractional industry. That includes a close relationship between NJASAP and Local 1108 (Teamsters). These unions work together to effectuate representation and the betterment of the entire fractional industry.

Right now, Flexjet pilots are the last real player (albeit the smallest) remaining that fails to be organized. Think about it. Between Netjet, Flight Options and Citationair - over 3700 pilots stood unionized at one point. It has to make one wonder why Flexjet pilots would not want to follow the same path? Could over 3700 be wrong and 325 be right about union representation in the fractional industry?

Interesting enough, some of the items in the Flexjet pilots employee agreement come right out of the Flight Options Pilots CBA. Of course, you have no way to enforce them.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

The Netjets Pilots CBAs were negotiated by the Teamsters. The attorneys and consultants the were part of the negotiating team were employed by Local 1108 (Teamsters).

Those same attorneys and consultants were employed by Local 1108 (Teamsters) and on the negotiating team that negotiated the Flight Options Pilots CBA. That contract was negotiated in some of the worse economic conditions since the great depression. Yet, they reached exemplary work rules.

On another note, NJASAP and the Teamsters have a great working relationship. They have created coalitions on more than one front to further union representation throughout the fractional industry. That includes a close relationship between NJASAP and Local 1108 (Teamsters). These unions work together to effectuate representation and the betterment of the entire fractional industry.

Right now, Flexjet pilots are the last real player (albeit the smallest) remaining that fails to be organized. Think about it. Between Netjet, Flight Options and Citationair - over 3700 pilots stood unionized at one point. It has to make one wonder why Flexjet pilots would not want to follow the same path? Could over 3700 be wrong and 325 be right about union representation in the fractional industry?

Interesting enough, some of the items in the Flexjet pilots employee agreement come right out of the Flight Options Pilots CBA. Of course, you have no way to enforce them.

How about some examples. I bet they were in there before you got your contract. You kinda sound like you want to say "your welcome" and force us to say "thank you."

It amazes me how you guys just want to beat up the FJ pilots and working conditions. Are you guys the "bad" cops and some day someone nice from your union will start communicating in a way that is not condescending and insulting.

Why do you care if we want to be part of the union.

Don't ask for a single carrier ruling and it seems we both get what we want.

You get to keep the IBT and we get to stay non union.

Or will you only be happy if we have to join pilot groups.

KR has no control over the merging of the pilot groups. He can't make it happen. It has to come from the pilots.



If the union gets voted out it is because you guys petitioned for single carrier. If you don't play the first card a vote probably won't happen. The only way I would see that then is if the anti union people at FO could get 50%+1, but I don't think they have the numbers.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Come on architect! 3700 are wrong and 1 guy is right. Didn't you get your Koolaid this am?

 

[The Architect]

Why are you upset?

How about some examples. I bet they were in there before you got your contract.

Examples? I'm not sure what you are asking for.

It amazes me how you guys just want to beat up the FJ pilots and working conditions.

What's wrong? There wasn't any pushing of anything. You attempted to point out that your reactionary raises could not be in anyway accredited to the Teamsters. You seemed to discount the Teamsters for any influence. That was inaccurate as I previously described.

Did pointing out the vast amount of organized pilots in the fractional industry upset you?

And calm down on the "you guys." Everyone has free choice. You might be surprised one day how may of the "you guys" are Flexjet pilots.

But let's lay the facts on the table. Good or bad. Not some opinionated conclusion that cant be substantiated in any way.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Come on architect! 3700 are wrong and 1 guy is right. Didn't you get your Koolaid this am?

There are also a lot of people that use illegal drugs. Guess I better start that also.

Oh, and it isn't just 1, there are quite a few of us at FJ that feel this way.

Why do you think the 2 previous union drives by the IBT here failed so miserably. Never even got enough interest to put it up for a vote.

I was on the union board last time. There were a whole 30+/- registered people. That included me. And it was the same 4 or 5 people from FJ on there bitching.

Guess what, they are still here. But the majority of the people I talk to want nothing to do with the IBT. Of course you'll say that is because I am the anti-Christ. You'll tell me 100 things about me you don't like, even though you don't know me from Adam.

Ok, bring on he insults and non fact based replies. You guys don't know how much entertainment you bring me.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

The Flex pilots I've running into are 60-75% in favor of having representation DESPITE their affiliation with the IBT.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

Examples? I'm not sure what you are asking for.



What's wrong? There wasn't any pushing of anything. You attempted to point out that your reactionary raises could not be in anyway accredited to the Teamsters. You seemed to discount the Teamsters for any influence. That was inaccurate as I previously described.

Did pointing out the vast amount of organized pilots in the fractional industry upset you?

And calm down on the "you guys." Everyone has free choice. You might be surprised one day how may of the "you guys" are Flexjet pilots.

But let's lay the facts on the table. Good or bad. Not some opinionated conclusion that cant be substantiated in any way.

Ummm, examples of your CBA directly contributing to our work rules as you stated. Go back and read you post again.

I know we have a few at FJ that would like the IBT. But I bet you would be suprised of the outcome when it comes to a vote. Bet there are more anti IBT at FO that you would believe.

 

[TWA 2 ASA FO]

The Flex pilots I've running into are 60-75% in favor of having representation DESPITE their affiliation with the IBT.

You wish.

That is laughable.

If that were the case then why would you be on here even debating.

You win.

 

[warlord19]

TWA, let me know if you need any help...I was typing a reply to Glorrified Gabby's lies when you posted your reply. As I 've said before, just ask most any FO line-pilot their view on the union...ranges from indifference to "i don't like the "leaders" to "whatever". I haven't had the pleasure of meeting any of the goobers that post here relentlessly about their glorious union, but I think it would be obvious if I did.
WL