Flopsions Management....Corupt Third World Mentality

[B19 Flyer]

Ummmmm.....................NETJETS? :beer:

What did I win...what I win...what I win...come one...tell me what I'd won, clown? :laugh:

Oh yeah NetJets is not a "carrier" (121). Fudge! Guess I got it wrong.

So if you do nothing but talk about and make reference to air carriers (121) and their unions....
THEN WHAT THE FORNICATION ARE YOU DOING IN THE FRAC SECTION AHOLE!?

Part 119.

 

[Sportsman]

B-19

Do you know why Net Jets the # 1 Fractional is laughing at FLOPS rite now? Because you guys at FLOPS management left Fractional on the table thinking it would give you some advantage in the JET PASS world well guess what they use Marqui Cards to attract new owners willing to actually buy Shares in there fractional program which by the way is the major part of there new A/C sales according to one of there salesmen at this time. Lets see hiring 400 pilots in 2008 with lots of new A/C deliveries, wow does that spell growth and profitability? Do you really want to turn FLOPS around? Better come too the negotiating table a little more prepaired to settle a contract or you might be looking for a job with the rest of us. Good Luck.

 

[CA1900]

Sad seeing mismanagement drive a company into the ground like that.

Perfect example: I flew a very nice woman today who mentioned that she's new to NetJets within the past few months, having just left FlightOptions after over seven years with them. She said, "the FlightOptions crews were just great, but dealing with the company itself was like pulling teeth, especially when there was a problem. I just couldn't deal with it anymore."

Are you listening, Options management? Your mismanagement is driving customers to your competitors. How can the pilots do their jobs when you won't do yours?

 

[realityman]

Sportsman, just a point of clarification. I assure you no one at NJA is laughing at FLOPS right now. I think most of our pilots are truly hoping you folks over there succeed and come out on top with a good contract and better QOL. Anything we can do to help, we will.

And I doubt NJA management is laughing either. Competition is good for our industry. It keeps everyone on their toes and forces innovation. Without competition things would probably start getting stale here pretty quick.

Of course, we don't want too much competition....

Good luck to you guys. You deserve better.

 

[Frac Cap]

I haven't been able to post anything all week due to exhaustion and lack of time due to me needing to maximize my minimum time off for rest so I could do another 14 hour day with yet again minimum rest. I have just done the most strenuous, grueling tour in my history with Flight Options. After doing 3 days of over 12 hours, I was able to ask for my 12 hours off to recuperate. Then they threw another grueling day at me and tried to get me to do 6 legs with yet again minimum rest. They were unable and unwilling to give me a break due to most of our aircraft down and as a result the ones unlucky enough to have a green plane, well you get everyone else's trips, and it just doesn't stop. So I had to call fatigue to put a stop to it before we had a serious screw up. I don't know about most, but I can't do these kind of days anymore. I thought once HIG took over, they were going to make this a better place with new core aircraft, more pilots, and better pay. Well HIG has lost my vote for "most likely to succeed". I no longer have confidence that they are trying to resurrect Flight Options into a place that people would want to work for and fly with.

I use to be a moderate not for, or against Flight Options. It was just a place to work. I never tried to knock Flight Options as a company. Well as of now, I am actively trying to find work elsewhere. I can not work like a dog, and be paid like one too. I hope HIG can try to pull Flops out of this spiraling nose dive, but I am now skeptical.

To F&H, if this was your goal, fear, doubt, and uncertainty. Congratulations, it worked.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

B19 and Voice of Reason are both TOOLS.

Ignore them. Voice of Reason was an EXCEPTIONAL TOOL during our contract negotiations and he was proven WRONG on ALL points. :crying: :smash:

 

[FR8DOG777]

Shameless

I guess the fractional model is outdated and proven to be unprofitable once again. Flex investing more dollars to attract and retain qualified pilots. Once again Options management proves to show no signs of relenting on their shameless business practices. This dangerous game of Detente has destroyed our reputation and customer base even further. Hats of to you smikey and spoojay. Bargain for a little more leverage until our company image is completely destroyed. BTW been seeing uncrued bj's sitting at almost every airport I been to today. Sounds like now would be a good time for us to all quit on the same day and show these fools how successful they really are.

 

[fischman]

$50 says B19 can't come up with an original argument on these comments. Any takers?

Part 119.

Did anyone notice that he posted right after me, and still hasn't answered a damn thing?

The truly crappy part is that I couldn't get anyone to take the bait. I would have made $50.

4 days B19. I'm waiting for a response. How about one we haven't heard before?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Did anyone notice that he posted right after me, and still hasn't answered a damn thing?

The truly crappy part is that I couldn't get anyone to take the bait. I would have made $50.

4 days B19. I'm waiting for a response. How about one we haven't heard before?

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep.

 

[WabiSabi]

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep.

BS! You are very selective in responding to some very valid points in posts....I have seen it way too many times.

 

[Galaxy]

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. What?? Is this what they call a UNION busting vacation? Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. Since you only post in the FRAC forum-please try to keep your knowledge and reference to the fractional UNION IBT 1108. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable ( Is NJA Miserable?-NOT) and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep. (You mean your MGT meeting right?)

BS-are you slow or something?? Just answer the questions that keep coming up for you. I know they are hard because you will have to admit the IBT 1108 has done well for its members as well as for MGT and NJA's bottom line.

 

[fischman]

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep.

First off. This has nothing to do with Unions. It has to do with you being a moron.

Re-read post #80

 

[B19 Flyer]

First off. This has nothing to do with Unions. It has to do with you being a moron.

Re-read post #80

The name calling is silly, but you support unions so I shouldn't take offense at it.

Here is the response I didn't have time for earlier.

Originally Posted by B19 Flyer
I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect.

You just don't get it do you? That is the prime directive of Unions.

No, you are WRONG. Unions DO NOT PROTECT TODAY!!!!

The prime directive of unions 70 years ago was to protect employees from working 100 hours a week for wages that did not allow them to feed their families, in working conditions that were dangerous at best. Union protection was needed when the federal government had no restrictions or labor laws to protect employees.

Today, your wages fischman (as you state below) are not just there to feed your family or pay your rent. At nearly 120,000 a year, your wages are is more than double than that of the average American. Today’s union greed will justify a high paycheck and work rules that union workers of the ‘30s would classify as sheer laziness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States


By union standards in 1930, representation was there attempting to bring the average employee up to a level that at least compared to the average American, not double and triple the income as today’s greedy union has done on the backs of the other employees.

You complain about your seven on and seven off schedule? Maybe your boat payment is late?

In 1930 employees were working 7 days A WEEK and barely could pay rent or put food on the table, boat payment? Hah! Now, if they could find a way to get that coal dust out of their lungs..

When was the last time you had to work 30 days straight and in the end of that 30 days you couldn’t put food on the table? You had the choice to become a pilot. Many of those early unionized companies were in locations where there WAS no other work and people needed to go there because there wasn’t any other work. You had a choice, you had the opportunity to become a pilot, THEY DIDN’T!! They had to work in the factories.

Yes, UNIONS HAD THEIR PLACE IN TIME, but to compare what a union does today with what they did back then is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard!!!


Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people.

You just don't get it do you? 1 hour of OT (which I get due to the collective bargaining from the union) pays my dues every month. It is money well spent.


In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay to the point of forcing the carrier out of business.



You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000,

Congratulations. I had to restart my career twice because of unions, as have hundreds of thousands of other aviations workers. Oh, and not to burst your bubble, I averaged five years between the forced changes.. Three years? ROFL.. you are nothing but a babe in the woods...


You just don't get it do you? What happened at NJA between '05 and '07 (besides the excellent skills of yours truly)? The pilot's got a massive pay raise, and we STILL managed to make money!!!

NJ has a long way to go to prove that it can withstand an “Industry leading CBA”. Aviation history has been very successful in shooting down "Industry Leading CBAs". NJ has been a loser until recently, and it’s not because of the union as much as the union would like to take credit for it.

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

You just don't get it do you? Grow up man. Get with the times.

No you are the one that doesn’t get it, and you can rest assured that if and when the economy stumbles, and along with it goes a high percentage of NJ jobs and the turmoil of concessions to keep the company alive I’ll be the one that doesn’t have to worry about a job change or figuring out how to make my boat payment.

NJ hasn’t been in business long enough to provide a good basis with a fractional model that technically has only been around for 3 years or so. If legacy carriers are struggling with a way to be profitable after over 75 years of practice and unions, you aren't so naive to think that NJ and 1108 have figured it all out in 3 do you? If so, it confirms that YOU DON'T GET IT!

I hope for your sake it doesn’t happen, but when it does, and it most likely will, hang on and watch the union dig it’s heels in while everything folds around them..

Then, and only then will you see just how much your CBA (and the paper it’s not even worth being written on) is worth and how your union protects you and your coworkers…

I don't need to worry about it...

 

[B19 Flyer]

BS-are you slow or something?? Just answer the questions that keep coming up for you. I know they are hard because you will have to admit the IBT 1108 has done well for its members as well as for MGT and NJA's bottom line.

No, this isn't just about 1108, they are a union that is attempting to take over the entire industry. 1108 has had how many successful aviation CBAs?

(Oh, and successful is one that was negotiated, implemented, approved by the membership and ran it's full course from beginning to end without concessions or renegotiations, allowed the company to be profitable and expand without layoffs or furloughs to ANY company employee)

1108 has a long way to go and is failing miserably at FLOPS.

 

[Galaxy]

No, this isn't just about 1108, they are a union that is attempting to take over the entire industry. 1108 has had how many successful aviation CBAs?

(Oh, and successful is one that was negotiated, implemented, approved by the membership and ran it's full course from beginning to end without concessions or renegotiations, allowed the company to be profitable and expand without layoffs or furloughs to ANY company employee)

1108 has a long way to go and is failing miserably at FLOPS.

Ahh yes this is ONLY about the 1108. We could care less about ALPA or any other union that is NOT the 1108. If they take over the entire fractional industry-well then GOOD.
I think the 1108 was successful with a contract with NJA. Will they be successful with FLOPS? That is MGT's decision not the UNION. The 1108 has continously asked MGT for more bargaining sessions with no luck. But then again-seeing you are the self proclaimed pro on unions-you already knew that.

 

[AeroBoy]

If anything, Flight Options management is miserably failing its pilots/employees, not to mention customers.

 

[Galaxy]

You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000,

Congratulations. I had to restart my career twice because of unions, as have hundreds of thousands of other aviations workers. Oh, and not to burst your bubble, I averaged five years between the forced changes.. Three years? ROFL.. you are nothing but a babe in the woods...

They claim these are the salary levels.
Entry Level-10K-30K
Middle Income-30K-50K
Upper Middle Income-50K 80K
High Income-80K to 100K
Six Figure-100K+

They also list the average small jet PIC as 137,700K/yr that includes Base Salary(95,998), Bonus,SS,401K,Disability,Health Care,Pensions,Time Off.
Large jet base salary is 112,098 for a total of 162,500K/yr

What exactly is it you want pilots to make?
Besides--what do you really care-unless you are an owner-because that is who is really paying the salary. You will find that all the fraction owners love the crews it is dealing with the internal departments of the company that drives them away. Wise up and get with the program. The unions are back because of mismanagement and GREED from MGT.
By the way my favorite Union information campain was before the contract and was the one that listed the percentage of NJA pilots that were elligible for govt assistance and how many had second jobs to support their families. I think that the owners are now happy that the pilots at the front of their multi million dollar jet are now worrying about things like the flight they are doing and not wondering how to pay the next bill that comes in the mail. Pilots are professionals-PERIOD! Pay them as such.

 

[fischman]

First off, I appreciate your response. I don't agree with a bit of it, but this is the FIRST TIME IN MONTHS you actually came up with responses to comments or questions. You usually only spit out the same rhetoric that has nothing to do with the questions asked.

Originally Posted by B19 Flyer

No, you are WRONG. Unions DO NOT PROTECT TODAY!!!! How can you justify this statement? How can you think Unions today don't protect their members?


You complain about your seven on and seven off schedule? Maybe your boat payment is late? I have NEVER complained about the 7&7 schedule, and don't have a boat. The bulk of my earnings go to provide the best future possible for my kids.

In 1930 employees were working 7 days A WEEK and barely could pay rent or put food on the table, boat payment? Hah! You are describing much of America these days, the Union membership seems to be the ones who are safe. Maybe the Unions have protected them...
When was the last time you had to work 30 days straight and in the end of that 30 days you couldn’t put food on the table? Feb '05.

Yes, UNIONS HAD THEIR PLACE IN TIME, but to compare what a union does today with what they did back then is the most ludicrous thing I’ve ever heard!!! It seems to me that unions today are fighting to get better wages and improved quality of life for the membership. How is that different?


Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people.

You just don't get it do you? 1 hour of OT (which I get due to the collective bargaining from the union) pays my dues every month. It is money well spent.
Got nothing for that one do you???


In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay to the point of forcing the carrier out of business. Sorry man, I'm calling BS on that one...



You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000,

Congratulations. I had to restart my career twice because of unions, as have hundreds of thousands of other aviations workers. Oh, and not to burst your bubble, I averaged five years between the forced changes.. Three years? ROFL.. you are nothing but a babe in the woods... Just because I started NJA in '05 doesn't mean I am a spring chicken.


You just don't get it do you? What happened at NJA between '05 and '07 (besides the excellent skills of yours truly)? The pilot's got a massive pay raise, and we STILL managed to make money!!!

NJ has been a loser until recently, and it’s not because of the union as much as the union would like to take credit for it. ???????????? I think you are grossly misinformed on that one. NJA has always been the industry leader...

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

You just don't get it do you? Grow up man. Get with the times.

No you are the one that doesn’t get it, and you can rest assured that if and when the economy stumbles, and along with it goes a high percentage of NJ jobs and the turmoil of concessions to keep the company alive I’ll be the one that doesn’t have to worry about a job change or figuring out how to make my boat payment. I will be the first one to eat my words if that ever happens, however I don't think it ever will. I believe you do not understand the economics of the people we fly, For the most part, they are immune to economic stumbles. It would take a full depression to effect them in the manner you are describing, and in that case it will be more than the union workers who are hurting.

NJ hasn’t been in business long enough to provide a good basis with a fractional model that technically has only been around for 3 years or so. Ummmm... you are off a couple of years on that one. I'll give you a little history lesson. Executive Jet started in 1964 by Paul Tibbets. It was then purchased by Richard Santulli in 1986 who started the idea of fractional jet ownership. He then renamed the company as NetJets in the early '90s (I don't remember the exact date off the top of my head) mainly because every time a biz jet would go down the papers would say an "Executive Jet" had an accident. We didn't want the public thinking that every time an "Executive Jet" crashed it was us. If legacy carriers are struggling with a way to be profitable after over 75 years of practice and unions, you aren't so naive to think that NJ and 1108 have figured it all out in 3 do you? If so, it confirms that YOU DON'T GET IT! Our math is in severe disagreement. 3 years does not equal 44, which is how long Execjet has been around, or 22 years which is when our "business" started it's current course.

.....

 

[fischman]

No, this isn't just about 1108, they are a union that is attempting to take over the entire industry. 1108 has had how many successful aviation CBAs?

(Oh, and successful is one that was negotiated, implemented, approved by the membership and ran it's full course from beginning to end without concessions or renegotiations, allowed the company to be profitable and expand without layoffs or furloughs to ANY company employee)

1108 has a long way to go and is failing miserably at FLOPS.

1108 is batting 1.000 according to your definition. I think it might be time to open your eyes, and get with the times old man...

 

[B19 Flyer]

1108 is batting 1.000 according to your definition. I think it might be time to open your eyes, and get with the times old man...

Have they run a contract all the way to the end without renegotiation midway through it? And I know the company hasn't been profitable all the way through the process. he season isn't over yet...