Flopsions Management....Corupt Third World Mentality

[skanza]

I think like his name implies, he's neither. Just middle of the road and hates the extremes of both sides. But a solution that's not either extreme would be interesting to hear albeit extreme in itself...

 

[B19 Flyer]

You seem to keep forgetting that FLOPtions Management invited the Union on to the property. This is what happens when a workforce is backed into a corner by sh!t management.

It never ceases to amaze me. A person or persons get an idea to start an airline, create jobs and hire pilots. At some point, these pilots think they are smarter than those that started the company and bring a union in to stand up for their “rights.”

When the original person, (the originator of the company, aka management) sets the standard and fights the union because it could jeopardize the well being of the company, pilots start a “legal” campaign of detailed preflights, etc to slow said company down and point out the flaws. This process costs the company money and creates ill will amongst all employees within the company.

However, when said management stands their ground against this union that wasn’t invited in (and is only there because a particular faction of pilots feels that they don’t get their fair share of what the original idea maker is willing to give them) the union members are slighted.

It’s OK to cause delays and make all the other employees lives miserable by going by their interpretation of “the book” on preflights, duty-rest, sick time, etc., but when management uses company rules (aka “the book”) to discipline pilots, management is now evil. It’s a two way street folks.

Union leadership must have told you that employees may lose their jobs and careers in the process of bringing a union on to the property. Just like they should tell you that if you go on strike, your union strike benefits won’t cover the cost of cobra health insurance for your family. The process is continued pain for all sides.

There is never peace and harmony for long periods of time because the CBA is always under scrutiny and in various forms of negotiation.

Be careful what you ask for.

www.unionfacts.com

 

[dime line]

It never ceases to amaze me. A person or persons get an idea to start an airline, create jobs and hire pilots. At some point, these pilots think they are smarter than those that started the company and bring a union in to stand up for their “rights.”

When the original person, (the originator of the company, aka management) sets the standard and fights the union because it could jeopardize the well being of the company, pilots start a “legal” campaign of detailed preflights, etc to slow said company down and point out the flaws. This process costs the company money and creates ill will amongst all employees within the company.

However, when said management stands their ground against this union that wasn’t invited in (and is only there because a particular faction of pilots feels that they don’t get their fair share of what the original idea maker is willing to give them) the union members are slighted.

It’s OK to cause delays and make all the other employees lives miserable by going by their interpretation of “the book” on preflights, duty-rest, sick time, etc., but when management uses company rules (aka “the book”) to discipline pilots, management is now evil. It’s a two way street folks.

Union leadership must have told you that employees may lose their jobs and careers in the process of bringing a union on to the property.

Just like they should tell you that if you go on strike, your union strike benefits won’t cover the cost of cobra health insurance for your family. The process is continued pain for all sides.

There is never peace and harmony for long periods of time because the CBA is always under scrutiny and in various forms of negotiation.

Be careful what you ask for.

www.unionfacts.comhttp://www.unionfacts.comhttp://www.unionfacts.com

And who Fired these said pilots? Union....uh...no

MANAGEMENT DID which is

YOU

 

[bchjetdrvr]

B1.9"

csfdvsd

It never ceases to amaze me. A person or persons get an idea to start an airline, create jobs and hire pilots. At some point, these pilots think they are smarter than those that started the company and bring a union in to stand up for their “rights.”

When the original person, (the originator of the company, aka management) sets the standard and fights the union because it could jeopardize the well being of the company, (B19-How does a union jeapordize the well being of the company? NJ must be going downhill fast) pilots start a “legal” campaign of detailed preflights, etc to slow said company down and point out the flaws. This process costs the company money and creates ill will amongst all employees within the company. (Isn't the ill will there already?, that's why the union is now there.)

However, when said management stands their ground against this union that wasn’t invited in (They are invited in. In fact, voted in. Democracy at it's best) (and is only there because a particular faction of pilots feels that they don’t get their fair share of what the original idea maker is willing to give them) the union members are slighted.

It’s OK to cause delays and make all the other employees lives miserable by going by their interpretation of “the book” on preflights, duty-rest, sick time, etc., but when management uses company rules (aka “the book”) to discipline pilots, management is now evil. It’s a two way street folks.

Union leadership must have told you that employees may lose their jobs and careers in the process of bringing a union on to the property. Just like they should tell you that if you go on strike, your union strike benefits won’t cover the cost of cobra health insurance for your family. The process is continued pain for all sides. (Dude, you're a f$cking parrot. You just keep repeating the same old pathetic lines. They get it that the dues don't cover cobra. Get something new will ya.)

There is never peace and harmony for long periods of time because the CBA is always under scrutiny and in various forms of negotiation. (I bet those over at NJ must be hating life without their peace and harmony. Those poor guys. They better get the 1108 out of there fast. They've ruined their lives! You know what those 1108 bastards did!? They went and got them the highest salaries in the biz, 100% paid health insurance premiums, livable working conditions, set the bar for qaulity of life on the road, decent hotels, paid web access, free breakfasts, overtime after 12 hours of duty, overtime before 8am day 1, thence-overtime after 9 hrs of duty, 2 days of overtime after midnight day 7. Oh yeah, 7 day work weeks, not 8. Oh the inhumanity!)

Be careful what you ask for. (Thanks for the headsup. Whew. You hear that FLOPS?, you better get the 1108 out of there ASAP! They're going to ruin your lives!)

www.unionfacts.com

 

[B19 Flyer]

(I bet those over at NJ must be hating life without their peace and harmony. Those poor guys. They better get the 1108 out of there fast. They've ruined their lives! You know what those 1108 bastards did!? They went and got them the highest salaries in the biz, 100% paid health insurance premiums, livable working conditions, set the bar for qaulity of life on the road, decent hotels, paid web access, free breakfasts, overtime after 12 hours of duty, 2 days of overtime paid after midnight day 7. Oh yeah 7 days work weeks, not 8. Oh the inhumanity!)

You apparently have a short memory about "Industry leading contracts"

Remember "United plus $1"?

Two years later, all the carriers were either in bankruptcy or on the edge of it.

"United Plus $1" led to massive furloughs, concessions and industry downsizing for all the legacy carriers

(The industry doesn't consider Southwest a legacy because they only fly domestic)

And before you go with this stupid blame it on management crap, all the legacy management that gave record profits and contracts between 1996 and 2000 didn't all take a universal "stupid pill" at the same time causing the industry to tank. The failing ecomomy with the massive labor contracts they were railroaded into caused that.

The NJ guys should enjoy it while they've got it. If it holds up, good for them. If the economy doesn't though, the turmoil will far exceed the happiness they have now.

Just ask any USAir, Delta, United or American pilot about the fun once the bar is set high and the carriers can no longer support it. They are the living, walking and breathing evidence.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Past careing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amish RakeFight
Sorry to hear about your pal Surfer. That's a real raw deal for him.

A good reason not to reveal who you are or where you work on these message boards. Especially from anectodotes which can reveal your identity. I know I have surmised who some posters are by their comments.

You're right that you should conceal you identity form Floptions management. They are firing pilots for far less then exposing just how crappy they really are. But to be honest I'm past caring. I've gotten to the point where I'm in this fight 110 % and I will do what ever is necessary to kick management in the teeth every chance I get until we have a contract.

------------------------
You just don't get it...he's saying (in a much nicer manner than I did/would that you made that decision for someone ELSE and not only jeopardized, but had a hand in mgt ENDING another poor sap's CAREER...not YOURS!

 

[SilverSurfer]

No Clue

Past careing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amish RakeFight
Sorry to hear about your pal Surfer. That's a real raw deal for him.

A good reason not to reveal who you are or where you work on these message boards. Especially from anectodotes which can reveal your identity. I know I have surmised who some posters are by their comments.




------------------------
You just don't get it...he's saying (in a much nicer manner than I did/would that you made that decision for someone ELSE and not only jeopardized, but had a hand in mgt ENDING another poor sap's CAREER...not YOURS!

Again dude you have no clue what you are speaking about and continue to show just how disconnected you are from what is going on at Floptions. My post had nothing to do with what management did regarding Jeff nor did I provide any information that management has not had for weeks. As usual your post are inaccurate and irrelevant.

 

[Galaxy]

You just don't get it...he's saying (in a much nicer manner than I did/would that you made that decision for someone ELSE and not only jeopardized, but had a hand in mgt ENDING another poor sap's CAREER...not YOURS!

If you knew the facts-you would know that said pilot was on admin leave before Surfer posted this.


You said FLOPS is a CAREER. Ha-that was a good one.

WHAT IS A JOB?
Technically, a job is defined as anything that has to be done, as the action of completing a task or duty. In the employment world, a job can also be considered that which provides income to meet basic needs. It gets you out of the house and provides an opportunity to contribute in society. A job does not necessarily make you want to get up in the morning, take an interest in what you do, or provide you with fulfillment. A job provides the basics ? cash and an activity.

WHAT IS A CAREER?
A career, on the other hand, is technically defined as a profession or vocation that is pursued as life work. A career does meet the basic definition for a job since it can also provide cash and an activity. However, a career is more than income and benefits. It can also provide opportunities for advancement, allow you to challenge yourself and nurture your personal growth, and provide intrinsic satisfaction with what you do.

Which one does a FLOPS pilot more resemble...

 

[fischman]

It never ceases to amaze me. A person or persons get an idea to start an airline, create jobs and hire pilots. At some point, these pilots think they are smarter than those that started the company and bring a union in to stand up for their “rights.” A person is not smart because they start a business. Pilots are statistically intelligent and well educated, and in many cases have more education than the trust fund morons that run businesses (management).

When the original person, (the originator of the company, aka management) sets the standard and fights the union because it could jeopardize the well being of the company, pilots start a “legal” campaign of detailed preflights, I'm sure you're not advocating that we do anything less than a detailed preflight? I've made my feelings on this point clear in the past. I suggest you re-read them and learn something. etc to slow said company down and point out the flaws. This process costs the company money and creates ill will amongst all employees within the company. Unless management is willing to learn that there is sometimes a better way to do business and listens to it's employees.

However, when said management stands their ground against this union that wasn’t invited in (and is only there because a particular faction of pilots feels that they don’t get their fair share of what the original idea maker is willing to give them) the union members are slighted.

It’s OK to cause delays and make all the other employees lives miserable by going by their interpretation of “the book” on preflights, duty-rest, sick time, etc., but when management uses company rules (aka “the book”) to discipline pilots, management is now evil. It’s a two way street folks. Yes it is. And if you follow those books to the letter, you'll never get fired will you?

Union leadership must have told you that employees may lose their jobs and careers in the process of bringing a union on to the property. Just like they should tell you that if you go on strike, your union strike benefits won’t cover the cost of cobra health insurance for your family. yawn...The process is continued pain for all sides.

There is never peace and harmony for long periods of time because the CBA is always under scrutiny and in various forms of negotiation. That is why it is important for the company and the union to have a good working relationship, like the 1108 and NJA enjoy.

Be careful what you ask for.

www.unionfacts.com A joke for a website.

.....

 

[fischman]

You apparently have a short memory about "Industry leading contracts"

Remember "United plus $1"?

Two years later, all the carriers were either in bankruptcy or on the edge of it.

"United Plus $1" led to massive furloughs, concessions and industry downsizing for all the legacy carriers

(The industry doesn't consider Southwest a legacy because they only fly domestic)

And before you go with this stupid blame it on management crap, all the legacy management that gave record profits and contracts between 1996 and 2000 didn't all take a universal "stupid pill" at the same time causing the industry to tank. The failing ecomomy with the massive labor contracts they were railroaded into caused that.

The NJ guys should enjoy it while they've got it. If it holds up, good for them. If the economy doesn't though, the turmoil will far exceed the happiness they have now.

Just ask any USAir, Delta, United or American pilot about the fun once the bar is set high and the carriers can no longer support it. They are the living, walking and breathing evidence.

Learn this. WE ARE NOT AN AIRLINE.

 

[realityman]

You apparently have a short memory about "Industry leading contracts"

Remember "United plus $1"?

Two years later, all the carriers were either in bankruptcy or on the edge of it.

"United Plus $1" led to massive furloughs, concessions and industry downsizing for all the legacy carriers

(The industry doesn't consider Southwest a legacy because they only fly domestic)

And before you go with this stupid blame it on management crap, all the legacy management that gave record profits and contracts between 1996 and 2000 didn't all take a universal "stupid pill" at the same time causing the industry to tank. The failing ecomomy with the massive labor contracts they were railroaded into caused that.

The NJ guys should enjoy it while they've got it. If it holds up, good for them. If the economy doesn't though, the turmoil will far exceed the happiness they have now.

Just ask any USAir, Delta, United or American pilot about the fun once the bar is set high and the carriers can no longer support it. They are the living, walking and breathing evidence.

B19,

Once again, you only paint partial pictures to try and make your point. I can't remember which thread it was on, but I countered one of your arguments with my own. I thought I made some good points. wondering what your response would be. Someone else on the thread called you an idiot. Which of us did you respond to? Hint: It wasn't me. So I'm guessing that anyone with good, logical points that disproves your arguments is something you can't stomach in a discussion. Easier to respond to the name calling. But I'll try again.

Let's examine United's previous great contract. I notice that you keep blaming their downfall singularly on the union and that contract. So, there were no other forces at work that could have caused United's financial pain? No slowing economy? No 9/11? No soaring fuel prices? No costly government regs (airlines had to pay a lot of the cost for the new security)? Maybe some bad management? Nothing?! It was allll the union's fault? I notice you fail to mention anything whatsoever about the humongous bonuses upper management walked away with as their legacy carriers were going down the tubes. But maybe that's because you'd have to argue that they were entitled to the money they negotiated for when they were hired, which of course would be completely contrary to your opinion that the unions are jerks for not renegotiating contracts fast enough for the employees to give concessions when things are tough for their employer. Managements' contracts should be honored, but a union shouldn't expect their contracts to be honored. Is that what you're saying?

Now lets talk industry. I will start off by agreeing with you (gasp!) that things could go south for NJA. But as I've already mentioned in another post (which you failed to respond to), things can go south for ANY company. Heck, Microsoft could one day find itself on the verge of bankruptcy! Any number of factors can bring down ANY company. There was a time when no one would've though Pan Am would vanish. Point is, it's not about "can NJA go under". Yes, they can. They could also continue to prosper for many many more decades, expanding and growing, providing greater opportunities around the globe for the clients, employees, and investors in the company. You like to site the vagaries of the economy as reason to worry about our company's health? So what, in Netjets' history, leads you to believe we have anything to worry about? We're NOT an airline. Our clients aren't going from rich to poor to rich to poor along with how the economy moves. As an example, let me tell you about Eagle, CO. On a recent weekend, it was quite busy (as it usually is this time of year). One person that works at the FBO was asked about business this year. She said business was up 50% over this time last year! Holy high dollars batman! Now think about it. The cost of jet fuel is now well over $6/gallon in many locations, and yet business aviation if going stronger than ever!! How much more proof do you need that our segment of aviation is not as affected by the economy as the airlines? Not saying things will stay strong forever, but I don't see the doom and gloom that you do about how the economy will affect our business.

Your constant underlying theme in all your posts is that unions are solely responsible for most companies' demise, and they only make their members miserable. Interesting, because I'm happier now at my job (and higher paid too!) than I've ever been, and it's because of our union. Our company is doing better than ever in part because of our union. And finally, you keep forgetting (intentionally?) that unions are INVITED in by unhappy employees (and it has to be a majority, not just a 'vocal minority'). Note: The employees are unhappy BEFORE the union gets there.

And I'm still waiting for an answer to a question I asked you in another thread that you didn't respond to: Can you name some prominent companies that went under that were non-union? I can! Are there more than a few? Maybe lots? I'm guessing that you won't start a list with me because it undermines your point that unions kill companies. Might actually point to management and a poor business model as the culprits, and we couldn't have that, now could we? No, it's gotta be the unions.

I agree with you again (gasp!) that unions can HASTEN the death of a company, but sorry B19, they don't cause it, as you want people to believe.

 

[Galaxy]

Amen to that realityman!

B19 will not answer your questions. He never does.... Just keeps posting the same lines over and over and over. No real supporting evidence.

 

[skyismyoffice]

Learn this. WE ARE NOT AN AIRLINE.

...Especially not a regional airline. Which is exactly why FLOPs is sucking wind. Current management at FLOPs has put the company where it is today. 'Nuff said.

 

[B19 Flyer]

...Especially not a regional airline. Which is exactly why FLOPs is sucking wind. Current management at FLOPs has put the company where it is today. 'Nuff said.

Doesn't make any difference what kind of company it is. MLB, NHL, screen writer's guild, any automaker, steel worker, paper company or manufacturer.

When a union conducts a work action, everybody gets hurt. Not just the employees within the company which get hurt the worst. All the vendors, the customers, the suppliers and the local economy which supports the company.

I only use airlines as an example because I'm within that world and have first hand experience.

If you would like me to open up the other realm I'll be more than happy to.
_____________________________

Hopefully FLOPS management will see this article and follow suit (no pun intended):

Pinnacle files 'unprecedented' suit against ALPA for bad faith bargaining

Wednesday January 9, 2008
Pinnacle Airlines filed suit in US District Court against the Air Line Pilots Assn. charging the union that represents the carrier's pilots with "bad faith bargaining" in contract talks that date back to 2005.
Pinnacle operates as a Northwest Airlink and Delta Connection carrier. An ALPA spokesperson told ATWOnline that the suit was "unprecedented," adding, "The lawyer who will handle the case can't remember when we were sued for failing to bargain in good faith."
Pinnacle VP and GM Clive Seal said in a written statement yesterday: "We regret having to file this lawsuit but the union left us no choice. On more than one occasion we agreed to terms that the union said would result in an agreement and then they moved the goalposts and made additional demands."
Pinnacle pilots have been in negotiations with management since their current contract became amendable in May 2005. "What they've offered to us has been insignificant raises, offers that aren't acceptable and are below industry standard," MEC Chairman Scott Erickson told this website. He said he had not seen a copy of the lawsuit.
Seal said that because of union intransigence, Pinnacle lost the chance to fly larger regional jets for Northwest, while another potential customer decided to drop the airline from consideration for new business. "We let the union know what was at stake on both occasions and that it was imperative that we achieve a new contract in a timely manner," he said. "The union's response was 'it's your problem.' We have a different view. This would have meant hundreds of new jobs for all of our people, including 200 new pilot jobs and immediate upgrades for 110 first officers."
But Erickson contended that the loss of business was the company's fault. "When it comes down to it, they are in charge of securing the business. They made decisions along the way that lost them business."
Seal said he believed Pinnacle pilots would have accepted the company's proposal if it had been presented to all pilots. Erickson disagreed, saying the offers were not acceptable to the ALPA negotiating committee and they were not obligated to present them to the rank and file.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

always the bridesmaid, never the bride.

I only use airlines as an example because I'm within that world and have first hand experience.

You crack me up...you are most certainly NOT "WITHIN that world," and have not been for quite some time. Hard, isn't it when you're able to have MAJOR which you've made so much a part of your very IDENTITY, and then "Poof!" it's gone. I can understand how frustrating it must be for you to be forced into this fractional world after getting a taste of that one.
Maybe you should go BACK to that world so you can have your identity back...
...oh, that's right...you CAN'T go back....
Well, maybe after you and IBT get through with your sandbox fight and share equal responsibility for the obliteration of Flight Options, you can work at NJA...or Mesa...same diff...
But then,...you never really WERE ever "within (that) world," though were you? Like the NJA gloaters who gloat due to their inner demons of inferiority, you too, gloat, because you got to grab that "brass ring," but not legitimately.
You knew you were always just a "D" lister that would have never been hired under normal circumstances...only as a result of a desperate airline whose pilots were all on strike, and were willing to grab anyone who would cross the line. LUCKY you, huh? :blush:

 

[skyismyoffice]

When a union conducts a work action, everybody gets hurt. [/FONT]

OK, maybe but what does that have to do with my original point? There haven't been any work actions at FLOPs??

FLOPs management is at fault here, not the Union. The current management created the mess that exists today.

 

[buckeyes95]

First off, NJA is not an airline. Whole different ballgame.
If a union conducts a work action, everyone gets hurt, hence employees should be grateful that the corporation allows them to work for them and take whatever management gives them. Yeah right. The best relationship is a true working partnership between the company and the employees. Sometimes you have to fight to get to this point.
Keep up the fight everyone at FO.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Fud From The Voice Of Treason

If you knew the facts-you would know that said pilot was on admin leave before Surfer posted this.

Galaxy, Voice Of Treason does not care about whether his post are accurate or true, he is here to spread FUD, no other reason. He has been given the facts in public and in private and has proven that the truth is not his thing. Just another management tool.:erm:

 

[B19 Flyer]

You crack me up...you are most certainly NOT "WITHIN that world," and have not been for quite some time. Hard, isn't it when you're able to have MAJOR which you've made so much a part of your very IDENTITY, and then "Poof!" it's gone. I can understand how frustrating it must be for you to be forced into this fractional world after getting a taste of that one.
Maybe you should go BACK to that world so you can have your identity back...
...oh, that's right...you CAN'T go back....
Well, maybe after you and IBT get through with your sandbox fight and share equal responsibility for the obliteration of Flight Options, you can work at NJA...or Mesa...same diff...
But then,...you never really WERE ever "within (that) world," though were you? Like the NJA gloaters who gloat due to their inner demons of inferiority, you too, gloat, because you got to grab that "brass ring," but not legitimately.
You knew you were always just a "D" lister that would have never been hired under normal circumstances...only as a result of a desperate airline whose pilots were all on strike, and were willing to grab anyone who would cross the line. LUCKY you, huh? :blush:

Don’t know where you get certain impressions, but I was never a “D” lister as you speak. As a matter of fact, with but one exception, my resume has nothing but “A” list carriers on it that seem to always be in the union spotlight for one reason or another.

One of the reasons I’m so vocal about unions, I’ve seen and dealt with them in ways most haven’t. Unless you’ve managed with a union at a major airline, you can’t even imagine what it’s like. I’m certain you haven’t. I have.

Don’t know where you get the impression I’m Eastern, not true. I was still working in a regional back in those days. I can proudly say that I’ve never paid a cent in union dues though. Unions have created career changes for me that I never asked for or wanted. Could it be sheer irony that the most stable and best paying job I’ve ever had is one at a non-union carrier? I don’t think so. Maybe I am lucky, but I don’t and never will believe that bringing a union into a non-union airline (or company) is ever the answer. I researched carefully before choosing my current employer, and would only go if there was either extreme union harmony or none at all. I was lucky; I found one without a union. If a union ever gets their claws into this place, I’ll closely monitor and bolt while the getting’ is good, but I don’t expect that to happen. I will never again let a union dictate my future.

 

[B19 Flyer]

First off, NJA is not an airline. Whole different ballgame.

Tell me, how does it differ?