Flopsions Management....Corupt Third World Mentality

[B19 Flyer]

First off, I appreciate your response. I don't agree with a bit of it, but this is the FIRST TIME IN MONTHS you actually came up with responses to comments or questions. You usually only spit out the same rhetoric that has nothing to do with the questions asked.

.....

Let me see if I understand you properly.

You are telling me that the union mission has not changed.

This means that:

You are telling me that your union has negotiated for you a salary of $118,000 a year (that is more than double the average annual income, in a career that you have personally chosen (and have the choice of working anyplace that you want), with federal regulations that has heavy government oversight of safety, limits to the amount of hours you can fly in a day, a week and a year…

With:

A steel worker or coal miner in 1935 that did not have federal regulations or oversight, did not have hourly limitations to the amount of work he was required to do, and most importantly, did not have a choice of where to work due to geographical or educational limitations of the era.

The unions in 1935 protected workers because workers had no other option. You have options.

Their version of not having food for the table was a little different in those days. It meant, NO FOOD or money to buy it with.

Their work week was measured with 3 digits(100 hours), 7 days a week, 365 a year without regulation.

Your work week has seven days on and seven days off.

To state that the mission of unions to protect is not the same. Unions have gone from giving workers basic rights to placing a strangle hold on companies by demanding wages, work rules and benefits that far exceed the norm for the average American. It will happen using methods that may cripple or even bankrupt a company and all of the other employees within it, and many times at the expense of lower seniority pilots that the CBA is designed to “Protect.”

If, what you say is true… that a union is there to protect…

Please tell me why, when times get tough, the union takes the available “bucket” of money and instead of dividing it in a way that will prevent layoffs, keeps the payroll high for the upper seniority pilots and allow the others to be furloughed.

True “Protection” would be to take that same “bucket of money” and divide it in such a way that everybody stayed employed, instead of sacrificing the bottom third of their dues paying members.

Yes, the union mission has changed, the old mission was to help everybody make a livable wage within the American way of life.

The new methodology is to take every last penny the company has extra so it can’t grow, and negotiate backwards only when the last gasps of a company are heard.

 

[Galaxy]

Mr B19

Here you go again with the same ole crap. I usually refrain from calling anyone names. However, you sir really are the BIGGEST MORON ever. If you can not see that the company, pilots, union, and owners are happy with the current contract. Then you are either SLOW or STUPID. In fact NJ can't seem to get enough pilots and planes to feed the need.
Stop talking about steel workers-they are on a different board.
NJA is happy-case closed.
FLOPS pilots will be happy when they have a contract or the doors are locked forever.
You will fade away like the other TOOLS when an outcome has been reached.

 

[fischman]

B19,

So you believe that $50,000 a year is a respectable wage for being away from our families for 7 days at a time?

Do you believe that $50,000 a year is worth missing my son's first steps?

If you were a passenger, would you want to have a pilot that was worried about how he was going to put a roof over his children's head, food on their plate, college, or even retirement? Or would you want a pilot who is well compensated and has his full attention on the work at hand, knowing his family is well taken care of?

I don't care what you say, you have a low opinion of us (pilots). Your last post is a demonstration of this. I mean this sincerly, you need to spend some time with the pilots at FLOPS. Ask them if they can pay their bills, feel good about their jobs, are proud of their company, are worried about the future, etc... The misery being caused is not of the union. It is management.


Shame on you have not being able to see what we do for people like you.

 

[B19 Flyer]

So you believe that $50,000 a year is a respectable wage for being away from our families for 7 days at a time?

Do you believe that $50,000 a year is worth missing my son's first steps?

If you were a passenger, would you want to have a pilot that was worried about how he was going to put a roof over his children's head, food on their plate, college, or even retirement? Or would you want a pilot who is well compensated and has his full attention on the work at hand, knowing his family is well taken care of?

I don't care what you say, you have a low opinion of us (pilots). Your last post is a demonstration of this. I mean this sincerly, you need to spend some time with the pilots at FLOPS. Ask them if they can pay their bills, feel good about their jobs, are proud of their company, are worried about the future, etc... The misery being caused is not of the union. It is management.


Shame on you have not being able to see what we do for people like you.

No, the last post was specifically about the mission of unions not the state of pilots. Besides, the average pilot here buries what corporate guys make without the hassle of a contract.

Everything you mentioned above our pilots get at my current employer without a union.

The specific point was, in 1935 a union was necessary to achieve an acceptable way of life because there were no other options.

You don't want an acceptable way of life. You became a pilot and your union is telling your employer that an acceptable way of life is more than double the american standard income at any cost including that of shutting down the company.

The union mission has changed from protecting employees and giving an "acceptable" standard of living to giving people with options unlimited power to take from the company what they THINK they are worth by forceful methods.

What is fair is fair, but the union mission has changed from helping everybody to helping a select few and screwing everybody else.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Shame on you have not being able to see what we do for people like you.

And there is one fact that I know, you as a pilot have never done a thing for me, but me as a manager that has worked on many high profile work groups with the Feds in DC have helped to make many positive changes for you.

But, as a pilot who fears becoming management , you will never have an opportunity to help the industry by only flying the line. Step up to the plate, where the real action is...

 

[fischman]

And there is one fact that I know, you as a pilot have never done a thing for me, Except work on the front line earning money for the company to provide you with a paycheck. but me as a manager that has worked on many high profile work groups with the Feds in DC have helped to make many positive changes for you. Thanks!!!

But, as a pilot who fears becoming management Don't confuse fear with lack of desire. I am a pilot, not management. Something you have forgotten I think. , you will never have an opportunity to help the industry by only flying the line. Step up to the plate, where the real action is...Again, you show lack of respect for pilots.

.....

 

[buckeyes95]

Unions try to get double or triple huh, what about todays CEO's, what are they at, 300%

 

[realityman]

B19,

Wow, you actually seem set on coming up with some counter-arguments to what people post here. Nice change. So I'll try again and see if you have anything to say about some of what I've posted.

First off, our contract, and FAA rules, permit me to work 14 hours in a 24 hour period. So how many hours of work does that equate to in a 7-day period? Unless my basic math skills are off, that amounts to possibly working 98 hours in a week. So how does that compare to the old steelworkers who had to work 100 hours in a week? Pretty close I'd say! Now granted, this is only every other week, but still a gross amount of hours to be worked.

Your comparison to the average American worker is also way off base. Does the average American worker risk losing their jobs up to 5 times a year? I go through 3 training events a year at NJA, where failure at any one of them could result in my dismissal, as well as 2 FAA medicals every year where a previously unknown medical condition could ground me (not to mention any number of random ramp checks). How many people will die if a doctor screws up? How many if a steelworker screws up? How many if an NJA pilot screws up? Does a thunderstorm or snowstorm present additional challenges to a steelworker while he's at work? How about an office worker? Broker? Accountant? Airline management? If an office worker makes a large mistake, what are the odds that it'll seriously affect the company in a negative way? Conversly, if a pilot seriously screws up (which would most likely result in the death of people) how negative an impact would that have on a company like NJA? How many 'average' American workers out there spend over $100K to become educated in their designated field of employment? And then start at a salary hovering around poverty for a few years?

So in reference to my paragraph above, do you honestly believe that pilots should only be paid what the 'average' American wage is?

You also haven't addressed mine or anyone else's comments about upper management walking away from failing companies with ridiculous bonuses. I'm still waiting for a response from you as to why you believe management should have their contracts honered no matter what happens, but feel unions should give back concessions much faster to help ailing companies. How many lower-level employees could keep their jobs at, say, a salary of $35K/year if upper management would forego the $50 million in bonuses many walk away with (some with a bit more, some with a little less, but still obscene).

Interesting how you think unions hang the junior guys out to dry, yet the past 2 contracts at NJA have had the greatest benefit to the mid and low-level pilots, not the most senior.

I'd also be very interested to know about the past companies you worked for where the unions were the ones to destroy things. How about the names of these companies? I'd like to research them to see if they were having financial difficulties before 'the unions ruined things', or if the problems were all created by the unions, as you seem to be leading us to believe in your posts.

Once again, I need to point out the our clients are not the same as airline clients. The ups and downs of the economy normally experienced in the course of any given decade really don't make or break these people. The rich will be rich, whether the DOW goes up a 1000 points or down. As someone else mentioned, a full scale depression would certainly affect our clients, but then ALL employees everywhere would be in trouble, not just the unionized pilots of the fractionals. The economy stumbled after 9/11, yet we grew and made money. I'm not suggesting that NJA or any of the other fractionals are immune to the effects a bad economy, just that it won't affect us as much. In fact, a slow economy that forces a traditional flight department to liquidate would be good for us, as those companies would probably not give up flying on bizjets, just shift to charter and fractional/jet card programs.

Will NJA stand the test of time? Who knows? But we've been in the fractional biz for 21 years now, and have gone global with well over 600 jets in operation, with many more coming. I'm not overly worried.

I've said it before, having a union is not the panacea some on this board would make it out to be. I never said it's the answer to all the labor/management problems out there. But for some, it may be the only way to be compensated fairly. No one, and I do mean NO ONE, gets paid what they're worth. They get paid what they negotiate for. Whether it's done individually or through a union, that's how it works. I will say that it sounds like you're a socialist at heart. You know, everyone should be paid the same and have access to the same benefits, etc... since pilots making 2 or 3 times the average bothers you so much. Of course, that would have to apply to management too, right?

 

[realityman]

Almost forgot something B19. WHen you take the steelworkers salary back in the 1930's, and adjust it for inflation, are we really making so much above average?

Or is it that unions have helped keep wages around average or better, and non-union employees have actually sunk below average when you look at inflation adjusted dollars?

If you made $8K/year back in 1935, anyone care to tell me what that equals in today's dollars? I'll bet that the 'average' American salary has actually decreased when adjusted for inflation, which is where B19 thinks we should be. I'll also bet that for the most part, it's the unionized work forces that have kept up with earning a real 'average' the best.

Typical management thinking from B19. Lots of partial info. But glossing over the actual pertinent factors when looking at money.

 

[ProFracPilot]

deleted

 

[dime line]

In 2006, $8,000.00 from 1935 is worth:

$117,465.40 using the Consumer Price Index
$97,566.53 using the GDP deflatorusing the value of consumer bundle *
$291,170.84 using the unskilled wage
$611,710.55 using the nominal GDP per capita
$1,440,076.40 using the relative share of GDP

*Data for consumer bundle is only available till 2005.

Reference: http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

WOw, B19 what do you say about unions now...I'd take the 8000,00, back then.

 

[FR8DOG777]

tip of the day

To all you FUD spreading goons at FUD and Harrysax, if you can't AFFORD THE TIP DON'T EAT OUT AT EXPENSIVE RESTAURANTS! We are professionals and will be compensated as such. My bet is Flops is paying you more than the AVERAGE american salary to do their dirty work for them. Contract or Fire SALE. ITS COMING!

 

[Frac Cap]

The "CEO" mission has changed from protecting employees and giving an "acceptable" standard of living to giving people with options unlimited power to take from the company what they THINK they are worth by forceful methods.

What is fair is fair, but the "CEO" mission has changed from helping everybody to helping a select few and screwing everybody else.

I took the artistic liberty of substituting "union" for "CEO".

B19, it looks like I can finally agree with you 100% on this.

 

[dime line]

I took the artistic liberty of substituting "union" for "CEO".

B19, it looks like I can finally agree with you 100% on this.

Hey B19, Read this

The Shameful Greed Of Airline Ceos
By Jim Hightower, AlterNet.
As the airline industry continues to sink into the muck, CEOs are raking in salary bonuses while slicing employee wages and benefits.



"United We Stand," shout the red, white, and blue CEOs of America's airlines as they rush to Washington to explain that their industry needs $3 billion in taxpayer subsidies to keep flying in these perilous economic times.
Meanwhile, back at headquarters, these same CEOs are shouting quite a different message at their employees. Instead of "United We Stand," it's "You're On Your Own," as the top dogs are firing thousands and demanding cuts of one-third to one-half in the paychecks of the employees that remain, plus making huge cuts in worker pensions.
"Well," hrrump the CEOs, "we're accepting cuts in our pay, too!" Look at Glenn Tilton, honcho at United Airlines. Poor Glenn took an 11 percent salary whack last year and is taking another 14 percent this year, they point out, tears welling in their eyes at the thought of Tilton's sacrifice in the common cause.
Yeah, "poor Glenn" is down to only $712,000 in salary this year. But wait ... there's more. He's also getting $1.5 million in stock payments this year, a $3 million "signing bonus," and a special $4.5 million pension payment. His total haul is nearly $10 million. Talk about your friendly skies.
Likewise, ol' Leo Mullins at Delta Airlines, says he's cutting his salary to barely $600,000 this year, as well as giving up some $6 million in bonuses and stock payments. What a guy, huh? Before giving him the Golden Heart Award, however, let's note that he quietly is pocketing millions in corporate cash for a special pension fund he set up for himself this year, including extra payments to cover the taxes that he will owe on the special pension. Now that's putting the gold in the "golden years," isn't it?
Senator John McCain believes we should not bail out airlines until the CEO ripoffs end. To back McCain's effort, call his office: 202-224-2235.

 

[Galaxy]

Since steel workers keep coming up in this fractional forum I had the pleasure of meeting a few last night. He belongs to the local Iron workers UNION. All he does is tie rebar together for casting in concrete for a bridge build project. He never went to college, dropped out in the 10th grade. He learned his trade from on the job training. Never takes a physical that could make him lose his job. He does get random drug testing. Gladly pays his dues to the UNION. He will make 100K this year and plus a bonus that will likely equal 5K.

All I can say is... I am happy for him and sad for FLOPS pilots....

CONTRACT or FIRE SALE!

 

[Freedom]

Voice of Treason and B19 are Working Together against the Flight Options Pilots

With all the meaningless debate, it is extremely important that all Flight Options Pilots realize that Voice of Treason and B19 are working together.

Their plan: Make the Flight Options Pilots wish for a 3rd alternative, a Toothless Pennyless In House Union like FOPA.

Why this Strategy? Ford and Harrison has realized they will not be able to get the Union voted out; so they need to find another way of chopping it off at the knees. Their answer: Get the Flight Options Pilots pissed off at both Management and the IBT 1108, then introduce the In House Union option.

If Ford and Harrison can split the Vote enough, and get the IBT 1108 replaced with FOPA, they would have done just as good as voting the IBT 1108 out. An In House Union will have no resources to fight the deep pockets of Flight Options.

Did everyone know that each Negotiating Session costs the Union approx. $25,000 dollars??? Where is an In House going to come up with funds like that? We are not Southwest Airlines. We have only around 600 Pilots, making far less wages.

Remember, Voice of Treason and B19 are working TOGETHER! VOT may ding B19 on this website, then he'll go out a buy B19 a Beer at 5pm.

 

[B19 Flyer]

With all the meaningless debate, it is extremely important that all Flight Options Pilots realize that Voice of Treason and B19 are working together.

Their plan: Make the Flight Options Pilots wish for a 3rd alternative, a Toothless Pennyless In House Union like FOPA.

Why this Strategy? Ford and Harrison has realized they will not be able to get the Union voted out; so they need to find another way of chopping it off at the knees. Their answer: Get the Flight Options Pilots pissed off at both Management and the IBT 1108, then introduce the In House Union option.

If Ford and Harrison can split the Vote enough, and get the IBT 1108 replaced with FOPA, they would have done just as good as voting the IBT 1108 out. An In House Union will have no resources to fight the deep pockets of Flight Options.

Did everyone know that each Negotiating Session costs the Union approx. $25,000 dollars??? Where is an In House going to come up with funds like that? We are not Southwest Airlines. We have only around 600 Pilots, making far less wages.

Remember, Voice of Treason and B19 are working TOGETHER! VOT may ding B19 on this website, then he'll go out a buy B19 a Beer at 5pm.

ROFL!!!!!

You need to lighten up there Tonto... :laugh:

I don't believe that any union, even an in house union ,will benefit the line pilot. I've seen those too, and they are kangaroo courts.

 

[B19 Flyer]

WOw, B19 what do you say about unions now...I'd take the 8000,00, back then.

I stand by my statement.

The union mission has changed from protecting those who could not protect themselves because they were forced to work because there were NO OTHER OPTIONS available.

Unions today are there to "represent" workers by squeezing every last cent of cash from an employer, even if it might mean the company doesn't survive.

Today's employees have choices, they are not forced to work where they do as they did when unions were first formed.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Since steel workers keep coming up in this fractional forum I had the pleasure of meeting a few last night. He belongs to the local Iron workers UNION. All he does is tie rebar together for casting in concrete for a bridge build project. He never went to college, dropped out in the 10th grade. He learned his trade from on the job training. Never takes a physical that could make him lose his job. He does get random drug testing. Gladly pays his dues to the UNION. He will make 100K this year and plus a bonus that will likely equal 5K.

All I can say is... I am happy for him and sad for FLOPS pilots....

CONTRACT or FIRE SALE!

You are out of context.

The steel workers were mentioned only in respect to the era for which unions were first formed and the original mission before there were federal laws to protect workers. The original mission is different from what happens today.

Contract or fire sale? Personally, I'd like to see the fire sale so the rest of the industry can see and learn what happens when unions infultrate an industry.

 

[Freedom]

Struck a Nerve in Bob's (B19) Thin Skin

ROFL!!!!!

You need to lighten up there Tonto... :laugh:

I don't believe that any union, even an in house union ,will benefit the line pilot. I've seen those too, and they are kangaroo courts.

Strike you too close to the truth you Scab.

Bet you were shocked that you'd run into Pilots with more skills than just those required to fly airplanes.

You can take your Master's Degree in Group Dynamics (manipulating people) and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I'll put my real world, hard core sales experience up against your textbook manipulation skills any day.

I saw you coming long before you got here Bob.

The game you, Voice of Treason, and whatever new name you invent next week, are playing is up.

As is your time at Options. Wasn't it Bill (M)oisture that left for "other opportunities" one month to the day after the NetJets Contract was signed.

Sorry I blew the cover of your plan Bob.

Deny til you're blue in the face. I could care less.

Freedom is not Free.