Flopsions Management....Corupt Third World Mentality

[B19 Flyer]

By the way folks, B19 misses one very important point, or at least is entirely misrepresenting it, which is, some labor unrest from time to time is not necessarily a bad thing! B19 poses an interesting question: What would the state of labor or business be like today without unions ever having come on the scene? Anybody care to take a guess what pay and benefits and the standard of living in this country would be like without the unions? Hint: Take a look at the working conditions in most third world countries. Heck, it wasn't all that long ago that you could've expected your 10-year-old to be working in a factory somewhere making $.05/day right here in the good ol US of A.

I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect.

Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people. In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay, to the point of forcing the carrier out of business.

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

 

[realityman]

No, you have not 'repeatedly said that unions had there day'. You've repeatedly said (ad nauseum) that unions are bad.

And you keep glossing over a very important point when you talk about unions putting good carriers out of business: they don't. If it was a good carrier, some labor unrest wouldn't bury it.

The ones that ultimately went under were ALREADY in trouble BEFORE those pesky unions got so stubborn about their contracts.

You keep saying that the unions were too slow or refused to renegotiate their contracts when their companies needed them to, and that's why they go under. Hogwash! It's up to management to lead by example. I notice you keep glossing over the fact that upper management almost always seems to walk away from floundering carriers with ridiculous bonuses and salaries. I'm wondering why you think it's alright for management to insist that their contracts be honored no matter what the cost, but you seem to think the union should rollover and take whatever concessions are offered to them.

One more time: Companies don't go out of business just because of stubborn unions. Companies go out of business because of slow economy/poor business model/lousy or corrupt management/higher raw materials costs (fuel, etc..)/restrictive gov't regs/outdated products/maybe stubborn unions, and a whole host of other factors. But it is NEVER solely because of a union. All the legacy carriers you mention had a bunch of major problems long before they ever had to address the 'problem' of the union.

And you still haven't addressed the thousands of companies over time (some of them very large) that have gone out of business that were non-union. What was their excuse?

Just as a fun exercise, I'd love to hear your take on how unions ruined Enron.

Anyway, I agree that unions haven't ALWAYS done the right thing. Plenty of corruption and ineffectiveness to be seen there. But the same could be said for management, government, religion, our schools, military, etc.....
The real question is, when you look at the big picture as a whole and where our society is now and how we got here, are we better off without the unions or with them? From your personal experience you say without. From my personal, and very recent, experience I say with.

 

[Galaxy]

I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect.

Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people. In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay, to the point of forcing the carrier out of business.

That wasn't the original intent of organizing.

Wow, just how much money have you made from this union busting attempt?

Like always you print HALF TRUTHS. Let me help you and finish it out for you. Unions were started because of GREED and UNSAFE conditions. Greed from Employers were finding the cheapest labor rates no matter of age or sex. They often had these poor peolpe working if hazardous and dangerous conditions. Then the unions came and they had their day. They protected the LITTLE GUY from MGT who had one thing on their mind--the BOTTOM line! I do agree with you and say that over time Union Bosses fell into corruption. MGT started this and has proven that anytime there is large sums of money present and people with no morals there will be corruption. Not true with the IBT 1108. Well the day of the blackjack lugging, baseball bat swinging, brick throwing unions are long gone. Now it is all done with briefcases. Since you only post in the Fractional forum lets keep to discussing the Fractional Union-not UAL or American or the Meat Packers Union. IBT1108- This union has a transparant accounting system with minimal people on the payroll. Almost all of the leadership is voluntary. Something you would never do-volunteer your time for a cause you believe in-as I am sure your daily rate for trying to bust this process is a lot higher than the highest paid pilot here. All the lies and crap you spew have nothing to do with the real subject here. IBT 1108 and FLOPS and a CONTRACT.
Fact is we are coming for it..RAGE is here..YOU LOSE
PAY UP or GET OUT
FIRE SALE OR CONTRACT.

 

[bchjetdrvr]

What are you looking for?

Please list the successful union relationships in aviation that have not resulted in the carrier being in bankruptcy or out of business at some point in the history of the carrier.

Ummmmm.....................NETJETS? :beer:

What did I win...what I win...what I win...come one...tell me what I'd won, clown? :laugh:

Oh yeah NetJets is not a "carrier" (121). Fudge! Guess I got it wrong.

So if you do nothing but talk about and make reference to air carriers (121) and their unions....
THEN WHAT THE FORNICATION ARE YOU DOING IN THE FRAC SECTION AHOLE!?

 

[fischman]

I've repeatedly stated that unions had their day. But pilots are not steel workers, factory workers and aren't forced to work in conditions that are not highly regulated by a governing body.

It's not 1933 anymore... the unions had their place in history. Unions were once there to protect. You just don't get it do you? That is the prime directive of Unions.

Now they are there not to produce a livable working wage, it's become an industry within itself and is there to strangle every single penny possible from hard working people. You just don't get it do you? 1 hour of OT (which I get due to the collective bargaining from the union) pays my dues every month. It is money well spent. In effect, what a union was once there to protect has run full circle. Now, they will cost jobs and reduce pay You just don't get it do you? When I started NJA in '05, my pay was $27,800. My BASE pay in '08 will be $118,000, to the point of forcing the carrier out of business. You just don't get it do you? What happened at NJA between '05 and '07 (besides the excellent skills of yours truly)? The pilot's got a massive pay raise, and we STILL managed to make money!!!

That wasn't the original intent of organizing. You just don't get it do you? Grow up man. Get with the times.

$50 says B19 can't come up with an original argument on these comments. Any takers?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Ummmmm.....................NETJETS? :beer:

What did I win...what I win...what I win...come one...tell me what I'd won, clown? :laugh:

Oh yeah NetJets is not a "carrier" (121). Fudge! Guess I got it wrong.

So if you do nothing but talk about and make reference to air carriers (121) and their unions....
THEN WHAT THE FORNICATION ARE YOU DOING IN THE FRAC SECTION AHOLE!?

Part 119.

 

[Sportsman]

B-19

Do you know why Net Jets the # 1 Fractional is laughing at FLOPS rite now? Because you guys at FLOPS management left Fractional on the table thinking it would give you some advantage in the JET PASS world well guess what they use Marqui Cards to attract new owners willing to actually buy Shares in there fractional program which by the way is the major part of there new A/C sales according to one of there salesmen at this time. Lets see hiring 400 pilots in 2008 with lots of new A/C deliveries, wow does that spell growth and profitability? Do you really want to turn FLOPS around? Better come too the negotiating table a little more prepaired to settle a contract or you might be looking for a job with the rest of us. Good Luck.

 

[CA1900]

Sad seeing mismanagement drive a company into the ground like that.

Perfect example: I flew a very nice woman today who mentioned that she's new to NetJets within the past few months, having just left FlightOptions after over seven years with them. She said, "the FlightOptions crews were just great, but dealing with the company itself was like pulling teeth, especially when there was a problem. I just couldn't deal with it anymore."

Are you listening, Options management? Your mismanagement is driving customers to your competitors. How can the pilots do their jobs when you won't do yours?

 

[realityman]

Sportsman, just a point of clarification. I assure you no one at NJA is laughing at FLOPS right now. I think most of our pilots are truly hoping you folks over there succeed and come out on top with a good contract and better QOL. Anything we can do to help, we will.

And I doubt NJA management is laughing either. Competition is good for our industry. It keeps everyone on their toes and forces innovation. Without competition things would probably start getting stale here pretty quick.

Of course, we don't want too much competition....

Good luck to you guys. You deserve better.

 

[Frac Cap]

I haven't been able to post anything all week due to exhaustion and lack of time due to me needing to maximize my minimum time off for rest so I could do another 14 hour day with yet again minimum rest. I have just done the most strenuous, grueling tour in my history with Flight Options. After doing 3 days of over 12 hours, I was able to ask for my 12 hours off to recuperate. Then they threw another grueling day at me and tried to get me to do 6 legs with yet again minimum rest. They were unable and unwilling to give me a break due to most of our aircraft down and as a result the ones unlucky enough to have a green plane, well you get everyone else's trips, and it just doesn't stop. So I had to call fatigue to put a stop to it before we had a serious screw up. I don't know about most, but I can't do these kind of days anymore. I thought once HIG took over, they were going to make this a better place with new core aircraft, more pilots, and better pay. Well HIG has lost my vote for "most likely to succeed". I no longer have confidence that they are trying to resurrect Flight Options into a place that people would want to work for and fly with.

I use to be a moderate not for, or against Flight Options. It was just a place to work. I never tried to knock Flight Options as a company. Well as of now, I am actively trying to find work elsewhere. I can not work like a dog, and be paid like one too. I hope HIG can try to pull Flops out of this spiraling nose dive, but I am now skeptical.

To F&H, if this was your goal, fear, doubt, and uncertainty. Congratulations, it worked.

 

[TurboJetCpt]

B19 and Voice of Reason are both TOOLS.

Ignore them. Voice of Reason was an EXCEPTIONAL TOOL during our contract negotiations and he was proven WRONG on ALL points. :crying: :smash:

 

[FR8DOG777]

Shameless

I guess the fractional model is outdated and proven to be unprofitable once again. Flex investing more dollars to attract and retain qualified pilots. Once again Options management proves to show no signs of relenting on their shameless business practices. This dangerous game of Detente has destroyed our reputation and customer base even further. Hats of to you smikey and spoojay. Bargain for a little more leverage until our company image is completely destroyed. BTW been seeing uncrued bj's sitting at almost every airport I been to today. Sounds like now would be a good time for us to all quit on the same day and show these fools how successful they really are.

 

[fischman]

$50 says B19 can't come up with an original argument on these comments. Any takers?

Part 119.

Did anyone notice that he posted right after me, and still hasn't answered a damn thing?

The truly crappy part is that I couldn't get anyone to take the bait. I would have made $50.

4 days B19. I'm waiting for a response. How about one we haven't heard before?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Did anyone notice that he posted right after me, and still hasn't answered a damn thing?

The truly crappy part is that I couldn't get anyone to take the bait. I would have made $50.

4 days B19. I'm waiting for a response. How about one we haven't heard before?

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep.

 

[WabiSabi]

There you go, taking credit for my silence when I'm on the other side of the pond. Too lagged right now to respond properly, but the negative history of aviation unions and "industry leading contracts" is stable in a negative fashion, and doesn't need anything more than a unionized group of pilots moaning and groaning about how they are treated by management to prove my point. The union stirs things up, make everybody in the company miserable and often places the company in jeapardy. More to follow.... after some sleep.

BS! You are very selective in responding to some very valid points in posts....I have seen it way too many times.