Flight options new pay

[ITFL]

ITFL

I am keeping an open mind about it and you are right there are many good things about this TA. Thats not the question, the question is if the TA as a whole is a good thing. This has to be judged free of fear about what will happen if it is not ratified. It either is good as a whole or it isn't. Please tell me how you calculated the 36%. I have been playing with the numbers and have not come up with anything close to that. Using Excel I have tried to make that formula for Supplemental pay work using some simple assumptions and it won't play. So please educate me.

I can't even say the pay sucks, although disappointing on the surface, it can not be accurately measured until someone has a reliable working model of the supplemental pay formula. As there are many good things in the TA that cost the company very little other then making themselves become more efficient, there are many things that at least appear on the surface to be very bad. If it is not voted in and ratified I do not think the NMB mediator, management or the Union would put it on ice. All sides have to much to lose to let the contract go unaddressed. The NJ pilots did have a lot going for them that we don't at the moment and I don't think anyone is expecting NJ level pay. I do believe that all of us expect all that can be afforded and a verifiable way for all of us to gage whether we are getting a fair cut of the pie as the company recovers. I personally do not want to leave it to the "Union", "management", or some "PHD" to just tell me there is none now and no way to truly measure it in the 5 years we will be stuck with this contract.

You said you are P2P and are commissioned to spread the good word. I on the other hand have the luxury of being able to consider the TA in total with no agenda.

Here is the passage from the E-Board announcement from Feb. 12 that I'm using to arrive at that number, "the average active Captain will receive a 37% increase in current salary over 5 years. The average active First Officer will receive a 24.43% increase in current salary over 5 years." First of all I trust our E-Board that that number is accurate, second, since there are only around 30 pilots on the property who will be paid as co-pilots, well you can do the math.

Supplemental pay formula: Above my pay grade dude. Maybe you should post the question on the union board.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the NMB has sole authority over weather or not negotiations are put in recess.

I think the environment NJ negotiated in was very different. Also don't forget, over there, even in a good economy it took them nine or ten months after the 2004 TA was voted down to finally reach an agreement. Difference is during that period they had the benefit have having a contract and were not at-will.

As far as the P2P committee I think the E-Board guys did a good job of telling us that it was out job to understand the constitution and be able to help people understand it. No one said anything about selling it to the pilots.

 

[dime line]

I just hate the year 4 and 5 provisions. I would be all over voting yes if this was only a 3 year contract. Right now i'm 60/40

 

[jetwash]

I just hate the year 4 and 5 provisions. I would be all over voting yes if this was only a 3 year contract. Right now i'm 60/40

Yes, it is unfortunate that the company can decide to extend the low morale and unhappiness of the pilots from 3 to 5 years.

 

[Capt Spike]

Why are we talking about this here?

If you are a MIGS, we have a forum to discuss this, talk to our union leader and hash our concerns. Here, we are just washing our laundry in plain sight of the company. We are still in negotions, one way or the other. WE fought so hard to get to this point!!!
THINK ABOUT IT! Let's silence these threads at least until we vote?

 

[SilverSurfer]

Here is the passage from the E-Board announcement from Feb. 12 that I'm using to arrive at that number, "the average active Captain will receive a 37% increase in current salary over 5 years. The average active First Officer will receive a 24.43% increase in current salary over 5 years." First of all I trust our E-Board that that number is accurate, second, since there are only around 30 pilots on the property who will be paid as co-pilots, well you can do the math.

Supplemental pay formula: Above my pay grade dude. Maybe you should post the question on the union board.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the NMB has sole authority over weather or not negotiations are put in recess.

I think the environment NJ negotiated in was very different. Also don't forget, over there, even in a good economy it took them nine or ten months after the 2004 TA was voted down to finally reach an agreement. Difference is during that period they had the benefit have having a contract and were not at-will.

As far as the P2P committee I think the E-Board guys did a good job of telling us that it was out job to understand the constitution and be able to help people understand it. No one said anything about selling it to the pilots.

Well I operate on the trust but verify principal and I never believe it's in the mail when I'm told it is. Until I know how these numbers you and a few others, who I assume are also P2P sense the numbers are the same, were derived, I just can't blindly accept them. In the NJ contract all was well defined and nothing was required to be taken on faith. I only have one faith, and its not in our management nor our union leadership. This formula is critical to how our pay will come over the next 5 years, someone needs to break it down. I have not so far.

You are correct that the mediator could say to hell with it and call time out. But the mediator can not keep management and the Union from meeting and doing a deal. In such a case he will probably attend the meeting if requested by both parties.

When I used the phrase sell it to the pilots, I did not mean it in a derogatory manner. By charter as a P2P member you are expected to disseminate the information given to you by the leadership.

 

[slowtation capt]

I just hate the year 4 and 5 provisions. I would be all over voting yes if this was only a 3 year contract. Right now i'm 60/40

30.2 [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]This Agreement shall become effective [date of ratification], 2010 and shall continue in force and effect until three years after [date of ratification], 2013 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act as amended no more than one hundred 180 days prior to three years after [date of ratification], 2013 or any time thereafter. [/FONT][/FONT]TA 02/03/10

I take that to mean, if the Union doesn't want it to continue, then they can put in their notice of wanting to discontinue the contract and not extend the 4th and 5th year options.

 

[SilverSurfer]

If you are a MIGS, we have a forum to discuss this, talk to our union leader and hash our concerns. Here, we are just washing our laundry in plain sight of the company. We are still in negotions, one way or the other. WE fought so hard to get to this point!!!
THINK ABOUT IT! Let's silence these threads at least until we vote?

Hey Capt, do you think that management has a copy of the contract? I do!!! As far as management knowing that there are a lot of pilots that are having second thoughts about this TA it's a good thing. Not many hard questions are being asked on the unoin board because thoughtful decent is not tolotated on the board.

 

[SilverSurfer]

30.2 [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]This Agreement shall become effective [date of ratification], 2010 and shall continue in force and effect until three years after [date of ratification], 2013 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act as amended no more than one hundred 180 days prior to three years after [date of ratification], 2013 or any time thereafter. [/FONT][/FONT]TA 02/03/10

I take that to mean, if the Union doesn't want it to continue, then they can put in their notice of wanting to discontinue the contract and not extend the 4th and 5th year options.

The rest of the story

30.3 The Company may exercise a unilateral option to extend the Agreement by 12 months by providing the Union written notice on or before the 185th day prior to three years after [date of ratification], 2013. If the Company exercises the option referred to in this subsection 30.3, the Agreement shall continue in full force and effect until four years after [date of ratification], 2014 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, no more than 180 days prior to four years after [date of ratification], 2014 or any time thereafter, subject to subsection 30.4.
TA 02/03/10

30.3(a) If the Company exercises the unilateral option set forth in subsection 30.3, then effective [first day of the fourth year of contract], 2013, the rates of pay in the salary tables set forth in subsection 27.1 shall be increased by three percent and the New Equipment Formula set forth in 27.1(g) shall be adjusted accordingly. TA 02/03/10

30.4 If the Company exercises the unilateral option referred to in subsection 30.3, the Company may exercise a unilateral option to extend the Agreement by 12 months by providing the Union written notice on or before the 185th day prior to four years after [date of ratification], 2014. If the Company exercises the option referred to in this subsection 30.4, the Agreement shall continue in full force and effect five years after [date of ratification], 2015 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act as amended no more than 180 days prior to five years after [date of ratification], 2015 or any time thereafter. TA 02/03/10

30.4(a) If the Company exercises the unilateral option set forth in subsection 30.4, then effective [first day of fifth year of contract], 2014, the rates of pay in the salary tables set forth in subsection 27.1 as adjusted by pursuant to subsection 30.3(a) shall be increased by an additional three percent, the New Equipment Formula set forth in 27.1(g) adjusted accordingly and the number of pilots eligible to bid and be awarded the 7&7 schedules increased to 25 percent, subject to subsection 19.3(a)(1). TA 02/03/10

 

[fracjack]

If you are a MIGS, we have a forum to discuss this, talk to our union leader and hash our concerns. Here, we are just washing our laundry in plain sight of the company. We are still in negotions, one way or the other. WE fought so hard to get to this point!!!
THINK ABOUT IT! Let's silence these threads at least until we vote?

Pure BS that the union can't understand they cannot control $hit. Even Migs get banned if they dont agree with the union position. Someone said "cowardly bastards". Work rule changes are absolutely uneffective in avoiding abuse of crewmembers. Back to "Will Fly for Food".

 

[993_Pilot]

Fracjack, you're just an idiot. At this point, the union alone controls whether this TA gets passed or not. We MIGS are the union. The eboard is but a few individuals and they have only one vote each. While they may be tired of negotiating, buy into managements BS, and think that they have a good TA, we are free to disagree with them. They are there to represent what the dues paying MIGS want... when the vote happens, they'll know. We all appreciate their effort, but the fact remains that a lot of us are unhappy with the TA as written, for various reasons. We have every right to voice those opinions and debate the issues here or elsewhere, and will continue to do so.

 

[fracjack]

Fracjack, you're just an idiot. At this point, the union alone controls whether this TA gets passed or not. We MIGS are the union. The eboard is but a few individuals and they have only one vote each. While they may be tired of negotiating, buy into managements BS, and think that they have a good TA, we are free to disagree with them. They are there to represent what the dues paying MIGS want... when the vote happens, they'll know. We all appreciate their effort, but the fact remains that a lot of us are unhappy with the TA as written, for various reasons. We have every right to voice those opinions and debate the issues here or elsewhere, and will continue to do so.

"They"? Thought you migs are the union? Oh, and I agree that anyone who works for flops can voice opinions anywhere. If this is the best the executive board can do then I feel real sorry for that. Keep those dues coming in. EB is out of touch with not only the workforce but the migs.
Not gonna be a winner here. Tell me how many times u flew ot, wrote up lightbulbs in bf,looked for every possible excuse to ground airplanes, anything to retaliate aginst the company and ended up shooting yourself in the foot by losing owners. Why is no one using that nice little preflight checklist anymore?The company did it's share also. Happy future job hunting brainiac.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Migs

Fracjack, you're just an idiot. At this point, the union alone controls whether this TA gets passed or not. We MIGS are the union. The eboard is but a few individuals and they have only one vote each. While they may be tired of negotiating, buy into managements BS, and think that they have a good TA, we are free to disagree with them. They are there to represent what the dues paying MIGS want... when the vote happens, they'll know. We all appreciate their effort, but the fact remains that a lot of us are unhappy with the TA as written, for various reasons. We have every right to voice those opinions and debate the issues here or elsewhere, and will continue to do so.

One MIGS to another......AMEN:beer:

 

[993_Pilot]

"They"? Thought you migs are the union?...

Read my post again. "They" was a reference to the eboard you idiot.

...Tell me how many times u flew ot, wrote up lightbulbs in bf,looked for every possible excuse to ground airplanes, anything to retaliate aginst the company and ended up shooting yourself in the foot by losing owners.

Never did that, never needed to. These airplanes break often enough on their own. Of course, I never did them any favors and carried write ups like they want either.

...Why is no one using that nice little preflight checklist anymore?

What they heck are you talking about???

The company did it's share also. Happy future job hunting brainiac.

Hopefully management will see the light, because we'll all be job hunting when this thing explodes in their face.

 

[cougar12]

933,
I can live with the meager work rule improvements because they will provide a little better QOL. I need to see more money on the table!

 

[ITFL]

Pure BS that the union can't understand they cannot control $hit. Even Migs get banned if they dont agree with the union position. Someone said "cowardly bastards". Work rule changes are absolutely uneffective in avoiding abuse of crewmembers. Back to "Will Fly for Food".

Oh, hi there Skippey. First you openly support the in-house movement on here and now this? You are going to be real popular when you come back off furlough.

If you are going to try and exploit an issue at least make it one that you didn't invent out of thin air.