Flight options new pay

[Alaska82]

I don't have a dog in this fight...but your math is wrong, unless the dues percentage goes up every year:

Year 1: $100 - $1.50 dues = $98.50
Year 2: $103.50 - $1.55 dues = $101.95 Still 3.5% raise
Year 3: $107.12 - $1.61 dues = $105.51 Still 3.5% raise

Not saying it's good, but from the sidelines....it beats a sharp stick in the eye!

so $100 year one and $101.95 year 2 does not equal 3.5% it is about 2.0 percent like i said. so if i get a 2.0% raise every year and inflation is 3.0% per year i take a 1.0% pay cut every year with regard to inflation.

You should check this out Recent Videos for inflation and monetizing the debt .

 

[Hydroplane]

OK. A 10 yr Capt in BJ today makes 77,100
If TA passes then that goes up 10% to 84810

If they duty me on before 6am on day one, lets say I have a 630 airline and duty on at 5, then they pay me an hour at the Overtime rate, which I calculate to be $54.42. ( annual pay / 194.8 / 12 x 1.5 )

For 55 bucks to the company, I don't think my day 1 will change much.

 

[Hydroplane]

Seniority

According to TA seniority will be based on date of hire.

This will change the current list, I believe, as the current list was a merger of TA and Options pilots. We all remember that mess.

Last I heard from the Union, this wasn't going to be changed. Looks like it will, unless I missed a part were the current list stays as is.

This will change a lot of pilots number, both good and bad.

 

[slowjet]

Why is it that pilots who do not fly for Flight Options have so much to say about our TA or problems. If your career is so great - good for you, be thankful and have a wonderful day- congratulations.

We have had to fight the worst management team I have ever seen. We have made great strides and endured the policies of the worst CEO Flight Options has ever had. Do we deserve more pay- hell yes, but it has always been about more than just pay. With my pay raise and perdiem, I'll make about 93000k per year and have 22 days vacation per year and job protections. The average American makes 50000k per year and has 7 days vacation and no job protections. I put things in perspective.

And mind your own friggin business.

 

[FLSTCI]

Why is it that pilots who do not fly for Flight Options have so much to say about our TA or problems. If your career is so great - good for you, be thankful and have a wonderful day- congratulations.

We have had to fight the worst management team I have ever seen. We have made great strides and endured the policies of the worst CEO Flight Options has ever had. Do we deserve more pay- hell yes, but it has always been about more than just pay. With my pay raise and perdiem, I'll make about 93000k per year and have 22 days vacation per year and job protections. The average American makes 50000k per year and has 7 days vacation and no job protections. I put things in perspective.

And mind your own friggin business.

I don't argue the point about it being more than just pay at all. I'm fortunate to work under the auspices of an existing CBA. And I know well what Flight Options pilots had to work under...I left during Scheeringa's tenure. I commuted from a Tier 3 domicile (DAB) and ended up being displaced to a Tier 2. I dealt with getting constantly jerked around by the "Puzzle Palace," "crew rot," crew meals which could only be described as embarrasing, and, like all of you up until now, an at-will relationship which afforded me no protection. So I know of what I speak. And I applaud the inclusion of these important items and others in your TA.

Again, all I'm saying is it is up to the Flight Options pilots to decide what is right for them. As far as, to use your words, "minding my own friggin' business" is concerned...two things: one, this is a forum which is available to all who meet its criteria for membership. If you don't appreciate others commenting on the subject matter, you might want to think about why you're even here in the first place. And, two, like I suggested to ITFL...rudeness never won hearts and minds. Just an opinion. Have a better day!

 

[Alaska82]

Overall i think the union did a good job after looking at the ta. i like the 27.8(d) Supplemental Payments. i think this will give flight options a competitive advantage to the other facs in recessions.

way to go good job 1108.

 

[ITFL]

Ok Einstein

ITFL, lets see we lost our 401k match (6%) 2 years ago. So 6x2=12%, 12%-10%= 2% loss of pay in year 1. This is scheduled to continue for the life of the contract so 5x6%=30%. Furtrhermore, lets use 4% annual inflation or 4% increased cost of living 5x4%=20%
So 12%+30%+20%=62% loss. all I see is a net loss in 5years for everyone.

Since you are such an economic "expert," why don’t you put in the necessary time and effort to dissect each concept contained within the 290 pages of this TA and determine the appropriate values for the other work rules and benefits which were not only preserved, but dramatically improved as part of the contract--you know, vacations, PTO days, schedules, hours of service, MOB health insurance, crew bases, the grievance process, scope, etc., etc., etc., all of which represent a new-found control of our work-lives as pilots at Flight Options. Once you do that, perhaps even you will see that the impact of the "loss" of the 401(k) match, which was previously at management's sole discretion to take away, pales in comparison to all the intangible economic gains in the contract, to say nothing about the tangible ones, such as the salary increases, job protections, work rules and QOL improvements.

While you ham-handedly attempt to compound the loss of the 401(k) match, you don't calculate the cumulative value of the various salary increases over five years, which could be worth 60 to 75 percent of your current salary, not including the compounding effect of the time value of money. Also, inflation, which is now at historic lows, typically runs in the 3.0 - 3.5% range.

 

[ITFL]

OK. A 10 yr Capt in BJ today makes 77,100
If TA passes then that goes up 10% to 84810

If they duty me on before 6am on day one, lets say I have a 630 airline and duty on at 5, then they pay me an hour at the Overtime rate, which I calculate to be $54.42. ( annual pay / 194.8 / 12 x 1.5 )

For 55 bucks to the company, I don't think my day 1 will change much.

Ok but multiply that 55 bucks times perhaps 25 pilots and again times 365 days. Now you are talking about half of a million dollars. Now that's enough of an impact to force management to implement procedures that force scheduling to take a very close look at scheduling airlines before 0730am. This is where the change comes from, not the $55 dollars you will get. You have to think like they do brother. I know our Negotiating Committee did.

 

[ITFL]

Since you quoted the time frame, ITFL, I'm assuming that you're referring to me. Please allow me to respond.

I didn't "slink away" from anything. I supported the IBT coming on the property from the beginning. I "flew the pledge" consistently and paid my dues promptly and as a result departed in good standing. (Which, by the way, worked to my benefit as the pilots at the company where I now work have been represented by the Teamsters for years, so I was able to avoid the initiation fee.) Most importantly, I departed because I'd had my fill of the fractional life. I wanted to fly the type of aircraft and have the type of schedule that working at my present company would allow. It was a significant departure from what I used to do at Flight Options. I'm doing the job I always wanted to do and enjoying my life immensely. I made my choice to leave for reasons which had nothing to do with the "fight" you allude to. Had I chosen to stay at Options, I would have been as diligent as any of you in pursuing a CBA.

For what it's worth, all I meant in my post is that the pilots at Flight Options as a whole are the best arbiters of what is acceptable and what is not. It's up to them to decide if the TA is good enough for them. If it is not, then they should strive for one which is. I'm no longer there and, apart from hoping for the best for those of my colleagues and friends who remain, do not "have a dog in this fight." I acknowledge that freely. But that changes nothing.

Finally, at the risk of sounding condescending (which I really don't intend -- I don't like it any more than anyone else does) you will discover that you really do attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. I have never been rude to anyone on this site (I hope?) and I would ask the same consideration of others. Think carefully about what you want to say before you commit it to a forum like this.

No my fellow Teamster Brother, I was not referencing you with my comments about slinking away after 2.5 years. 1podpilot also mentioned leaving 2.5 years ago in his post (check it out). But his comment was within the context of his urging us to "keep up the good fight". That's what I was responding too. Our Executive Board has recommended that we carefully consider and then vote to ratify this agreement. They have told us they left no money lying on the table, that's good enough for me. For someone to come on here, trash our TA and suggest that we keep fighten, when he long ago gave up on our fight to become a sniveling at-will employee, is beyond the pale.

As for being nicer on the forum, I'll give it some thought, but I'm just not sure it's in my nature.

 

[Pervis]

Although day one OT start time is different at NJA, the concept is the same. It is amazing how much scheduling has been able to make things work by virtually eliminating before 0800 day one starts. Just shows how wasteful they were in the past going ultra conservative in getting crews in position as early as possible. That is saving millions per year in OT.

Be careful if you are told to expect 10-15% above your base salary, as we were in 2007. In fact, try telling your bank your base is this, but your actual will be something different due to the potential for OT.

The raise may be weak, but others have suggested to look at the whole package. A very smart thing to do. It may not be all everyone wanted-they never are, but as a first contract, you set a baseline and a place to improve later. Without a contract, you have nadda. Whatever you end up with, the biggest challenge will be compliance. Know your contract, and don't let them take advantage of percieved loopholes.

 

[GerryG]

According to TA seniority will be based on date of hire.

This will change the current list, I believe, as the current list was a merger of TA and Options pilots. We all remember that mess.

Last I heard from the Union, this wasn't going to be changed. Looks like it will, unless I missed a part were the current list stays as is.

This will change a lot of pilots number, both good and bad.

Take a look at the implementation letter (last LOA in the TA). It sayes, The Company shall publish the Flight Options Pilot Seniority List on the effective date of the Agreement in accordance with Section 5.

The Seniority List has been established as precedent between the Union and the Company during contract negotiations and it will be the list we are using now. So no merger mess. The language you see about date of hire, refers to all future new hires.

 

[chainring]

Although day one OT start time is different at NJA, the concept is the same. It is amazing how much scheduling has been able to make things work by virtually eliminating before 0800 day one starts. Just shows how wasteful they were in the past going ultra conservative in getting crews in position as early as possible. That is saving millions per year in OT.

Be careful if you are told to expect 10-15% above your base salary, as we were in 2007. In fact, try telling your bank your base is this, but your actual will be something different due to the potential for OT.

The raise may be weak, but others have suggested to look at the whole package. A very smart thing to do. It may not be all everyone wanted-they never are, but as a first contract, you set a baseline and a place to improve later. Without a contract, you have nadda. Whatever you end up with, the biggest challenge will be compliance. Know your contract, and don't let them take advantage of percieved loopholes.

Well said!!!

 

[GerryG]

Wow, I'm starting to feel fortunate to be at Flexjet. Sounds like you guys got hosed on this one. You deserve at least what we get paid.

Look man, you are an at will employee. No Union pilot would want to trade places with you - no matter what you get paid. This is a concept that, in the Fractional world, only the NJ pilots and soon the Flight Options pilots will really understand.

 

[cougar12]

Since you are such an economic "expert," why don’t you put in the necessary time and effort to dissect each concept contained within the 290 pages of this TA and determine the appropriate values for the other work rules and benefits which were not only preserved, but dramatically improved as part of the contract--you know, vacations, PTO days, schedules, hours of service, MOB health insurance, crew bases, the grievance process, scope, etc., etc., etc., all of which represent a new-found control of our work-lives as pilots at Flight Options. Once you do that, perhaps even you will see that the impact of the "loss" of the 401(k) match, which was previously at management's sole discretion to take away, pales in comparison to all the intangible economic gains in the contract, to say nothing about the tangible ones, such as the salary increases, job protections, work rules and QOL improvements.

While you ham-handedly attempt to compound the loss of the 401(k) match, you don't calculate the cumulative value of the various salary increases over five years, which could be worth 60 to 75 percent of your current salary, not including the compounding effect of the time value of money. Also, inflation, which is now at historic lows, typically runs in the 3.0 - 3.5% range.

ITFL,
I understand all of the contract must be considered in our decision to vote Yes or No and they do have a economic impact. My only goal was to make everyone think before the spout off whether they are for or against the contract.
As far as inflation being at historic lows, I agree. However, the forecast on inflation is not so bright. Our annual longevity raise in this contract is merely a cost of living raise of 3.5%.
I thought I was being conservitive on the 401K caculations. I didn't even include the 35% gain in my 401k this year which in reality I lost an additional 35% because I didn't have the company match.
So please don't try to make things so complicated because they aren't. The pay raise can be discribed as meager at best, the other concepts in the TA that have a economic impact, I'd say they are overdue. The 401k issue only makes the contract less likeable in my opinion.

 

[FR8DOG777]

At the end of the day flight options will remain a great waste of time. These wages would be fair in 1980. Work rules have improved considerably and now we will not be considered a sweat shop, just a low ball stepping stone. They should probably change their slogan from we give you more to, "Options riding out recessions one pilot's paycheck at a time." I will resign my cursatory remarks and disdain for this company and accept the fact we have wasted a lot of time and health we will never regain and move on. Has anyone compared the purported 10% raise against the 8/7 salary tables in section 27. I am not a smart man, but the numbers don't jive. My ten year monthly salary working a 8/7 is 6425 times 12 month's is 77,100 times the ".10%" raise 7,710 +77,100=$84,810. Now go compare that to ten year 8/7 scale of contract which is what they will base your salary on. It's $80,171.09. That is a discrepancy of $4,638.91 in their favor and no where near a 10%increase. Someone please tell me my math is wrong. We will still be working more days a year for way less money than even Avantair flying turboprops. I appreciate all the time the negotiators put in, but from this day forward I will be investing all my energy into my own business and get outta here. Good luck.

 

[ITFL]

ITFL,
I understand all of the contract must be considered in our decision to vote Yes or No and they do have a economic impact. My only goal was to make everyone think before the spout off whether they are for or against the contract.
As far as inflation being at historic lows, I agree. However, the forecast on inflation is not so bright. Our annual longevity raise in this contract is merely a cost of living raise of 3.5%.
I thought I was being conservitive on the 401K caculations. I didn't even include the 35% gain in my 401k this year which in reality I lost an additional 35% because I didn't have the company match.
So please don't try to make things so complicated because they aren't. The pay raise can be discribed as meager at best, the other concepts in the TA that have a economic impact, I'd say they are overdue. The 401k issue only makes the contract less likeable in my opinion.

Agreed it is good to thoroughly consider what is contained in the entire TA before making a decision, understanding that there are millions of dollars wrapped up in the various provisions contained within it.

You are right about the 3.5 percent being nothing more than a cost of living increase in years 2 and 3 of the TA, but remember in years 4 and 5 we get an additional 3%. So that's 6.5% in each of those years compounding.

I'm not happy with the 401k issue either, but at least when/if it comes back, they can't take it away again. I think its also fair to say that management will be under considerable pressure from the union to bring it back when they think the company can afford it.

 

[flydog1]

I think for all of us in good standing we should keep our posts and references to the contract to the union website. We, (MIGS), have a place to post for each section on there and our leaders will answer them. That will avoid this mess of rumors and others that know nothing about the information out of it.

Of course, if you aren't a MIGS, we won't be seeing your post on there. Continue to talk among yourselves on here because it will not matter, you can't vote anyway. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Flex-ible]

so $100 year one and $101.95 year 2 does not equal 3.5% it is about 2.0 percent like i said. so if i get a 2.0% raise every year and inflation is 3.0% per year i take a 1.0% pay cut every year with regard to inflation.

You should check this out Recent Videos for inflation and monetizing the debt .

Alaska, Year 1 is not $100 because you pay the union dues already.

Or if you prefer, Year 1 is a 2% net increase to account for union dues, and each subsequent year is 3.5%. Not saying that's great - but as long as infliation is less than 3% there is a slight real increase.

As I said, I don't have adog in the fight, but I don't believe in using fuzzy math to convince people one way or the other. It's been said there are three kind of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. I wish FO well as each pilot makes his/her own decision.

 

[Alaska82]

Alaska, Year 1 is not $100 because you pay the union dues already.

Or if you prefer, Year 1 is a 2% net increase to account for union dues, and each subsequent year is 3.5%. Not saying that's great - but as long as infliation is less than 3% there is a slight real increase.

As I said, I don't have adog in the fight, but I don't believe in using fuzzy math to convince people one way or the other. It's been said there are three kind of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics. I wish FO well as each pilot makes his/her own decision.

If you consider union dues a fixed cost that you already pay i agree with you. i have not paid union dues and i will have to start when a ta is passed. I think over all this is a good first contract pay is not everything and there are some great work rules in the ta.

i guess the whole inflation thing sucks too bad we are not still on the gold standard.

 

[skyismyoffice]

With my pay raise and perdiem, I'll make about 93000k per year and have 22 days vacation per year and job protections. /QUOTE]

A good point that I hope many consider. The Ricci meal plan is written into the contract now. ALL meals on the company dime.

Pocketing all the perdiem is definitely a tax free perk worth noting!