Flight options new pay

[SilverSurfer]

Ok, if you will take the blinders off and actually make an argument against the points I make. Where am I off track? I have "genuine and well founded concerns" about the sanity of anyone who argues that, in this economy, we should vote down a contract that would give an average 36% raise to every union pilot on this property over five years. Sure parts of it SUCK, tell me how you would go about fixing that. What's the plan?

Or you could just continue making accusations.

That is exactly what I am going to do. I'm going through the TA, each section and every word. So far the verdict is the work rules are just so so, nothing that is that great. Initial pay also nothing to be proud of either, we'll see if someone, maybe you, can decipher the cryptic formula used to measure what we get paid over and above the COLA 3%. Also because extension of the contract is solely at the discretion of management, and the extremely low pay increase they are being exposed to, they will extend this to 5 years. So no matter how you paint this it, it is a 5 year contract and we will be stuck with it.

 

[ITFL]

That is exactly what I am going to do. I'm going through the TA, each section and every word. So far the verdict is the work rules are just so so, nothing that is that great. Initial pay also nothing to be proud of either, we'll see if someone, maybe you, can decipher the cryptic formula used to measure what we get paid over and above the COLA 3%. Also because extension of the contract is solely at the discretion of management, and the extremely low pay increase they are being exposed to, they will extend this to 5 years. So no matter how you paint this it, it is a 5 year contract and we will be stuck with it.

I think it's good you are thoroughly reading through the document. I also understand some of your initial complaints and I'm sure if you look really hard you can find some other things to take issue with. I intend to focus on all the things we are getting, things that we didn't have before, like, again an average of 36% pay increase across the seniority list over the life of the contract. Other things like OT for airlines before 07:30 on day one, last day work rules, which are pretty good, the job protections contained in an excellent scope clause, grievance and system board language which looks top-notch to me, meals paid by the company on a company credit card, the most extensive list of domiciles and grandfathered domiciles in the industry, uniforms bought and paid for by the company, vacation that we can actually bid and take, 8 extra PTO days by the end of the contract, 25% 7&7 schedule available by the end of the contract, duty and rest rules, the non-union frac pilots would kill for. These are all things we have LOCKED DOWN in this contract. I know you've probably been around long enough to have received the BB email taking something you liked away? I know I have.

So please do read the contract, ask your questions, hopefully in the Q&A section of the union's message board but not on here. I was on the P2P call the other night when we were told by the negotiators that they did not leave any money on the table and that in their opinion (based on a trip into the companies books with a PhD economist) the company did not have any more money. They also said the union was told by the NMB that they would not get a release and would probably put negotiations in recess (something they can do regardless of the union/company objection) for a lengthy period of time if the TA is rejected. Why would they lie about that? They work here and will have to work and live with or without this contract?

Has it ever occurred to you that although you can surely find plenty things to complain about in this TA, including the pay which, lets be honest sucks, maybe the union is telling the truth and because of the economy, this is the best deal we can get? If that is the case, voting it down would only risk money coming off the table, due to the loss of business which will result from owners abandoning the company when the news invariably gets out that the pilots rejected the TA. Frankly I think there is a danger here in comparing our situation that of NJ in 2004 as I've seen others (some of whom should know better) do in this forum. The NJ pilots were able to exploit a robust economy, and a very wealthy backer (Berkshire) to fund their pay increase. I think there will be little argument, ever from you, that we are in a very different place here at Flight Options.

 

[BeenThereDoneIt]

ITFL: But remember, you essentially hired the union to represent you.

BTDI: You also hired Congress to represent you. However, their approval rating is below 15%. I'm just sayin'......LOLOL

The company I left had a Pilot Advisory Committee that was made up of 100% Captains and no FO's. When you aren't in the FO's shoes....it can be very easy to lose them in the negotiations. That might explain why people are complaining that the Senior guys are going to do well in this TA and the bottom feeders will not. Either way.....good luck!

 

[SilverSurfer]

ITFL

I am keeping an open mind about it and you are right there are many good things about this TA. Thats not the question, the question is if the TA as a whole is a good thing. This has to be judged free of fear about what will happen if it is not ratified. It either is good as a whole or it isn't. Please tell me how you calculated the 36%. I have been playing with the numbers and have not come up with anything close to that. Using Excel I have tried to make that formula for Supplemental pay work using some simple assumptions and it won't play. So please educate me.

I can't even say the pay sucks, although disappointing on the surface, it can not be accurately measured until someone has a reliable working model of the supplemental pay formula. As there are many good things in the TA that cost the company very little other then making themselves become more efficient, there are many things that at least appear on the surface to be very bad. If it is not voted in and ratified I do not think the NMB mediator, management or the Union would put it on ice. All sides have to much to lose to let the contract go unaddressed. The NJ pilots did have a lot going for them that we don't at the moment and I don't think anyone is expecting NJ level pay. I do believe that all of us expect all that can be afforded and a verifiable way for all of us to gage whether we are getting a fair cut of the pie as the company recovers. I personally do not want to leave it to the "Union", "management", or some "PHD" to just tell me there is none now and no way to truly measure it in the 5 years we will be stuck with this contract.

You said you are P2P and are commissioned to spread the good word. I on the other hand have the luxury of being able to consider the TA in total with no agenda.

 

[shanes123]

Havent seen it..But The only thing I know about Flops is that they dont have large companies backing them and they have piss poor management..

 

[ITFL]

ITFL

I am keeping an open mind about it and you are right there are many good things about this TA. Thats not the question, the question is if the TA as a whole is a good thing. This has to be judged free of fear about what will happen if it is not ratified. It either is good as a whole or it isn't. Please tell me how you calculated the 36%. I have been playing with the numbers and have not come up with anything close to that. Using Excel I have tried to make that formula for Supplemental pay work using some simple assumptions and it won't play. So please educate me.

I can't even say the pay sucks, although disappointing on the surface, it can not be accurately measured until someone has a reliable working model of the supplemental pay formula. As there are many good things in the TA that cost the company very little other then making themselves become more efficient, there are many things that at least appear on the surface to be very bad. If it is not voted in and ratified I do not think the NMB mediator, management or the Union would put it on ice. All sides have to much to lose to let the contract go unaddressed. The NJ pilots did have a lot going for them that we don't at the moment and I don't think anyone is expecting NJ level pay. I do believe that all of us expect all that can be afforded and a verifiable way for all of us to gage whether we are getting a fair cut of the pie as the company recovers. I personally do not want to leave it to the "Union", "management", or some "PHD" to just tell me there is none now and no way to truly measure it in the 5 years we will be stuck with this contract.

You said you are P2P and are commissioned to spread the good word. I on the other hand have the luxury of being able to consider the TA in total with no agenda.

Here is the passage from the E-Board announcement from Feb. 12 that I'm using to arrive at that number, "the average active Captain will receive a 37% increase in current salary over 5 years. The average active First Officer will receive a 24.43% increase in current salary over 5 years." First of all I trust our E-Board that that number is accurate, second, since there are only around 30 pilots on the property who will be paid as co-pilots, well you can do the math.

Supplemental pay formula: Above my pay grade dude. Maybe you should post the question on the union board.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the NMB has sole authority over weather or not negotiations are put in recess.

I think the environment NJ negotiated in was very different. Also don't forget, over there, even in a good economy it took them nine or ten months after the 2004 TA was voted down to finally reach an agreement. Difference is during that period they had the benefit have having a contract and were not at-will.

As far as the P2P committee I think the E-Board guys did a good job of telling us that it was out job to understand the constitution and be able to help people understand it. No one said anything about selling it to the pilots.

 

[dime line]

I just hate the year 4 and 5 provisions. I would be all over voting yes if this was only a 3 year contract. Right now i'm 60/40

 

[jetwash]

I just hate the year 4 and 5 provisions. I would be all over voting yes if this was only a 3 year contract. Right now i'm 60/40

Yes, it is unfortunate that the company can decide to extend the low morale and unhappiness of the pilots from 3 to 5 years.

 

[Capt Spike]

Why are we talking about this here?

If you are a MIGS, we have a forum to discuss this, talk to our union leader and hash our concerns. Here, we are just washing our laundry in plain sight of the company. We are still in negotions, one way or the other. WE fought so hard to get to this point!!!
THINK ABOUT IT! Let's silence these threads at least until we vote?

 

[SilverSurfer]

Here is the passage from the E-Board announcement from Feb. 12 that I'm using to arrive at that number, "the average active Captain will receive a 37% increase in current salary over 5 years. The average active First Officer will receive a 24.43% increase in current salary over 5 years." First of all I trust our E-Board that that number is accurate, second, since there are only around 30 pilots on the property who will be paid as co-pilots, well you can do the math.

Supplemental pay formula: Above my pay grade dude. Maybe you should post the question on the union board.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the NMB has sole authority over weather or not negotiations are put in recess.

I think the environment NJ negotiated in was very different. Also don't forget, over there, even in a good economy it took them nine or ten months after the 2004 TA was voted down to finally reach an agreement. Difference is during that period they had the benefit have having a contract and were not at-will.

As far as the P2P committee I think the E-Board guys did a good job of telling us that it was out job to understand the constitution and be able to help people understand it. No one said anything about selling it to the pilots.

Well I operate on the trust but verify principal and I never believe it's in the mail when I'm told it is. Until I know how these numbers you and a few others, who I assume are also P2P sense the numbers are the same, were derived, I just can't blindly accept them. In the NJ contract all was well defined and nothing was required to be taken on faith. I only have one faith, and its not in our management nor our union leadership. This formula is critical to how our pay will come over the next 5 years, someone needs to break it down. I have not so far.

You are correct that the mediator could say to hell with it and call time out. But the mediator can not keep management and the Union from meeting and doing a deal. In such a case he will probably attend the meeting if requested by both parties.

When I used the phrase sell it to the pilots, I did not mean it in a derogatory manner. By charter as a P2P member you are expected to disseminate the information given to you by the leadership.

 

[slowtation capt]

I just hate the year 4 and 5 provisions. I would be all over voting yes if this was only a 3 year contract. Right now i'm 60/40

30.2 [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]This Agreement shall become effective [date of ratification], 2010 and shall continue in force and effect until three years after [date of ratification], 2013 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act as amended no more than one hundred 180 days prior to three years after [date of ratification], 2013 or any time thereafter. [/FONT][/FONT]TA 02/03/10

I take that to mean, if the Union doesn't want it to continue, then they can put in their notice of wanting to discontinue the contract and not extend the 4th and 5th year options.

 

[SilverSurfer]

If you are a MIGS, we have a forum to discuss this, talk to our union leader and hash our concerns. Here, we are just washing our laundry in plain sight of the company. We are still in negotions, one way or the other. WE fought so hard to get to this point!!!
THINK ABOUT IT! Let's silence these threads at least until we vote?

Hey Capt, do you think that management has a copy of the contract? I do!!! As far as management knowing that there are a lot of pilots that are having second thoughts about this TA it's a good thing. Not many hard questions are being asked on the unoin board because thoughtful decent is not tolotated on the board.

 

[SilverSurfer]

30.2 [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]This Agreement shall become effective [date of ratification], 2010 and shall continue in force and effect until three years after [date of ratification], 2013 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act as amended no more than one hundred 180 days prior to three years after [date of ratification], 2013 or any time thereafter. [/FONT][/FONT]TA 02/03/10

I take that to mean, if the Union doesn't want it to continue, then they can put in their notice of wanting to discontinue the contract and not extend the 4th and 5th year options.

The rest of the story

30.3 The Company may exercise a unilateral option to extend the Agreement by 12 months by providing the Union written notice on or before the 185th day prior to three years after [date of ratification], 2013. If the Company exercises the option referred to in this subsection 30.3, the Agreement shall continue in full force and effect until four years after [date of ratification], 2014 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, no more than 180 days prior to four years after [date of ratification], 2014 or any time thereafter, subject to subsection 30.4.
TA 02/03/10

30.3(a) If the Company exercises the unilateral option set forth in subsection 30.3, then effective [first day of the fourth year of contract], 2013, the rates of pay in the salary tables set forth in subsection 27.1 shall be increased by three percent and the New Equipment Formula set forth in 27.1(g) shall be adjusted accordingly. TA 02/03/10

30.4 If the Company exercises the unilateral option referred to in subsection 30.3, the Company may exercise a unilateral option to extend the Agreement by 12 months by providing the Union written notice on or before the 185th day prior to four years after [date of ratification], 2014. If the Company exercises the option referred to in this subsection 30.4, the Agreement shall continue in full force and effect five years after [date of ratification], 2015 and shall renew itself without change thereafter, unless written notice by either party of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title II, of the Railway Labor Act as amended no more than 180 days prior to five years after [date of ratification], 2015 or any time thereafter. TA 02/03/10

30.4(a) If the Company exercises the unilateral option set forth in subsection 30.4, then effective [first day of fifth year of contract], 2014, the rates of pay in the salary tables set forth in subsection 27.1 as adjusted by pursuant to subsection 30.3(a) shall be increased by an additional three percent, the New Equipment Formula set forth in 27.1(g) adjusted accordingly and the number of pilots eligible to bid and be awarded the 7&7 schedules increased to 25 percent, subject to subsection 19.3(a)(1). TA 02/03/10

 

[fracjack]

If you are a MIGS, we have a forum to discuss this, talk to our union leader and hash our concerns. Here, we are just washing our laundry in plain sight of the company. We are still in negotions, one way or the other. WE fought so hard to get to this point!!!
THINK ABOUT IT! Let's silence these threads at least until we vote?

Pure BS that the union can't understand they cannot control $hit. Even Migs get banned if they dont agree with the union position. Someone said "cowardly bastards". Work rule changes are absolutely uneffective in avoiding abuse of crewmembers. Back to "Will Fly for Food".

 

[993_Pilot]

Fracjack, you're just an idiot. At this point, the union alone controls whether this TA gets passed or not. We MIGS are the union. The eboard is but a few individuals and they have only one vote each. While they may be tired of negotiating, buy into managements BS, and think that they have a good TA, we are free to disagree with them. They are there to represent what the dues paying MIGS want... when the vote happens, they'll know. We all appreciate their effort, but the fact remains that a lot of us are unhappy with the TA as written, for various reasons. We have every right to voice those opinions and debate the issues here or elsewhere, and will continue to do so.

 

[fracjack]

Fracjack, you're just an idiot. At this point, the union alone controls whether this TA gets passed or not. We MIGS are the union. The eboard is but a few individuals and they have only one vote each. While they may be tired of negotiating, buy into managements BS, and think that they have a good TA, we are free to disagree with them. They are there to represent what the dues paying MIGS want... when the vote happens, they'll know. We all appreciate their effort, but the fact remains that a lot of us are unhappy with the TA as written, for various reasons. We have every right to voice those opinions and debate the issues here or elsewhere, and will continue to do so.

"They"? Thought you migs are the union? Oh, and I agree that anyone who works for flops can voice opinions anywhere. If this is the best the executive board can do then I feel real sorry for that. Keep those dues coming in. EB is out of touch with not only the workforce but the migs.
Not gonna be a winner here. Tell me how many times u flew ot, wrote up lightbulbs in bf,looked for every possible excuse to ground airplanes, anything to retaliate aginst the company and ended up shooting yourself in the foot by losing owners. Why is no one using that nice little preflight checklist anymore?The company did it's share also. Happy future job hunting brainiac.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Migs

Fracjack, you're just an idiot. At this point, the union alone controls whether this TA gets passed or not. We MIGS are the union. The eboard is but a few individuals and they have only one vote each. While they may be tired of negotiating, buy into managements BS, and think that they have a good TA, we are free to disagree with them. They are there to represent what the dues paying MIGS want... when the vote happens, they'll know. We all appreciate their effort, but the fact remains that a lot of us are unhappy with the TA as written, for various reasons. We have every right to voice those opinions and debate the issues here or elsewhere, and will continue to do so.

One MIGS to another......AMEN:beer:

 

[993_Pilot]

"They"? Thought you migs are the union?...

Read my post again. "They" was a reference to the eboard you idiot.

...Tell me how many times u flew ot, wrote up lightbulbs in bf,looked for every possible excuse to ground airplanes, anything to retaliate aginst the company and ended up shooting yourself in the foot by losing owners.

Never did that, never needed to. These airplanes break often enough on their own. Of course, I never did them any favors and carried write ups like they want either.

...Why is no one using that nice little preflight checklist anymore?

What they heck are you talking about???

The company did it's share also. Happy future job hunting brainiac.

Hopefully management will see the light, because we'll all be job hunting when this thing explodes in their face.

 

[cougar12]

933,
I can live with the meager work rule improvements because they will provide a little better QOL. I need to see more money on the table!

 

[ITFL]

Pure BS that the union can't understand they cannot control $hit. Even Migs get banned if they dont agree with the union position. Someone said "cowardly bastards". Work rule changes are absolutely uneffective in avoiding abuse of crewmembers. Back to "Will Fly for Food".

Oh, hi there Skippey. First you openly support the in-house movement on here and now this? You are going to be real popular when you come back off furlough.

If you are going to try and exploit an issue at least make it one that you didn't invent out of thin air.