Flight options new pay

[FR8DOG777]

You wanna quit, fine, but some of us don't have other options. I'd rather take my chances here, for now, and if things don't get better in a few years when the economy recovers and there are jobs out there I will start looking. So don't hang around here, leave, save us all of your unrealistic, borderline delusional expectations. Sometimes there is no bogeyman, sometimes there is just reality. Deal with it or move on. Meanwhile I'll take my 46% raise, over 5 years, and take my wife out to dinner for the first time in a long time.[/QUOTE]

It is unfortunate that anyone is out of work. You act like its my fault we have pilots on furlough. Freight doggie is tired, tired of working two jobs to support my family. Tired of working more for less. Why don't you step out of the box and start thinking like management. This 16+2 schedule is a license for mgt to obtain all the unsolicited overtime they need for 900 bucks in possible incentive pay. What do you think that is going to do for our brothers and sisters on furlough? You think mgt would rather spend a measly 900 on you or pay salary and benefits to a pilot they have to bring back from furlough? If all you migs on furlough vote for this piece o $hit you have just delayed your recall time exponentially. Why don't you think twice before wholesaling your talents to management for five years. You will have effectively enabled management to obtain your services for far less than the going rate. I know we aren't going to be anywhere near nj wages, but right now where not even on the same planet. Our captain pay doesn't even supercede FO pay at NJA. Send our negotiators back to the table with a strong no vote for the ta with as high a percentage as the strike vote. And yes the salary percentages are scewed, enjoy that 2498 raise in year two of the contract, maybe you can take the family out to dinner at Taco Bell.

 

[OHGOON]

Lol

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the NMB has sole authority over weather or not negotiations are put in recess.

Now this is the kind of Breaking News we can all use! Had I known, I would have called them immediately the other day while holding for KSUN....again@%#!

I had no idea that the National Mediation Board has become this powerful, gotta sell my stock in the Whether Channel immediately!

Not trying to hijack this thread, just trying to add a bit of levity...

Now, back to the seriousness of the matter at hand!

 

[fracjack]

993 and other minions

You boys and girls just keep rolling over like puppy dogs lickin your peepees. Keep patting each other other the head for job well done.
Don't know Skippey. But do know that any other frac is going to run away from the mighty ibt1108. You just brought the industry down to the gutter.

 

[OHGOON]

Don't know Skippey. But do know that any other frac is going to run away from the mighty ibt1108. You just brought the industry down to the gutter.

This has got to be the dumbest and most inflammatory statement I've read here in the last 5 minutes.

 

[993_Pilot]

You boys and girls just keep rolling over like puppy dogs lickin your peepees....

My my my, what a clever analogy.

...Keep patting each other other the head for job well done....

You obviously are not paying attention, or maybe you're just slow. Nobody is patting anyone on the back. Some of us are unhappy with the contract and voicing it here. None of that puppy self gratification that you seem to be so familiar with.

...But do know that any other frac is going to run away from the mighty ibt1108. You just brought the industry down to the gutter.

Nobody has brought anybody down to the gutter yet, but if this thing passes, I think that I will have to agree with you on this one, unfortunately.

 

[ITFL]

You wanna quit, fine, but some of us don't have other options. I'd rather take my chances here, for now, and if things don't get better in a few years when the economy recovers and there are jobs out there I will start looking. So don't hang around here, leave, save us all of your unrealistic, borderline delusional expectations. Sometimes there is no bogeyman, sometimes there is just reality. Deal with it or move on. Meanwhile I'll take my 46% raise, over 5 years, and take my wife out to dinner for the first time in a long time.

It is unfortunate that anyone is out of work. You act like its my fault we have pilots on furlough. Freight doggie is tired, tired of working two jobs to support my family. Tired of working more for less. Why don't you step out of the box and start thinking like management. This 16+2 schedule is a license for mgt to obtain all the unsolicited overtime they need for 900 bucks in possible incentive pay. What do you think that is going to do for our brothers and sisters on furlough? You think mgt would rather spend a measly 900 on you or pay salary and benefits to a pilot they have to bring back from furlough? If all you migs on furlough vote for this piece o $hit you have just delayed your recall time exponentially. Why don't you think twice before wholesaling your talents to management for five years. You will have effectively enabled management to obtain your services for far less than the going rate. I know we aren't going to be anywhere near nj wages, but right now where not even on the same planet. Our captain pay doesn't even supercede FO pay at NJA. Send our negotiators back to the table with a strong no vote for the ta with as high a percentage as the strike vote. And yes the salary percentages are scewed, enjoy that 2498 raise in year two of the contract, maybe you can take the family out to dinner at Taco Bell.[/QUOTE]

Given that the union's leadership has more information than we do, including information about the companies financials and is recommending we vote to ratify this TA. Who are you to try to persuade pilots to reject it.

Other than your own opinion and speculation, what more/different information do you have than they do and what is it?

 

[ITFL]

This is what I ment to say...

It is unfortunate that anyone is out of work. You act like its my fault we have pilots on furlough. Freight doggie is tired, tired of working two jobs to support my family. Tired of working more for less. Why don't you step out of the box and start thinking like management. This 16+2 schedule is a license for mgt to obtain all the unsolicited overtime they need for 900 bucks in possible incentive pay. What do you think that is going to do for our brothers and sisters on furlough? You think mgt would rather spend a measly 900 on you or pay salary and benefits to a pilot they have to bring back from furlough? If all you migs on furlough vote for this piece o $hit you have just delayed your recall time exponentially. Why don't you think twice before wholesaling your talents to management for five years. You will have effectively enabled management to obtain your services for far less than the going rate. I know we aren't going to be anywhere near nj wages, but right now where not even on the same planet. Our captain pay doesn't even supercede FO pay at NJA. Send our negotiators back to the table with a strong no vote for the ta with as high a percentage as the strike vote. And yes the salary percentages are scewed, enjoy that 2498 raise in year two of the contract, maybe you can take the family out to dinner at Taco Bell.

Given that the union's leadership has more information than we do, including information about the companies financials and is recommending we vote to ratify this TA. Who are you to try to persuade pilots to reject it, unless of course you have some information they don't.

Other than your own opinion and speculation, what more/different information do you have than they do and what is it?

 

[jetwash]

Given that the union's leadership has more information than we do, including information about the companies financials and is recommending we vote to ratify this TA.

The duration of the contract has nothing to do with the financials.
Since we didn't get the money we should have got the duration we wanted.

That along with forcing guys to do a 16+2 while we have pilots on furlough is just BS.

 

[ITFL]

The duration of the contract has nothing to do with the financials.
Since we didn't get the money we should have got the duration we wanted.

That along with forcing guys to do a 16+2 while we have pilots on furlough is just BS.

But you didn't answer the question. Other than your own opinion and speculation, what more/different information do you have than they do and what is it? Maybe there was a reason they agreed to a five year term?

Also I've been thinking about this one a little bit. If I'm management and I'm coming up on 185 days prior to the three year amendable date of the contract and I have to make a decision about weather to exercise my option to extend the contract, I would essentially have two choices: 1) Exercise the option and pay millions for a 3% raise for the pilots. 2) Go back to the table and spend $0. Of course, choice #2 also comes with a potential labor dispute, but I'm not sure that it's as much of a fore-gone conclusion, as some of you guys seem to think, that this contract goes for five years. I think it's very possible that we are back at the table in 2.5 years. Remember for management, it all about the money.

I wonder if the union thought about any of those things, before they made the deal? Probably never know.

Oh and you say "forcing guys onto the 16+2". For like nine grand a year, I'm thinking of bidding it myself. And before you slam me for forgetting about the furloughed pilots, I think the addition of the 7&7 schedule, not to mention the relative labor peace that a ratified agreement will generate should work in their favor.

 

[jetwash]

I just got done talking to another crew at the FBO and it looks like there are a lot of MIGS who are not too happy with the TA.

As time goes by it looks like the initial excitement of a TA is fading fast. I got calls from a MIGS on furlough who is really pissed and wanted my support to vote NO.

I think the tide is slowly turning against the TA now that people are reading and realizing what we are locking ourselves into for 5 years.

 

[993_Pilot]

...I've been thinking about this one a little bit. If I'm management and I'm coming up on 185 days prior to the three year amendable date of the contract and I have to make a decision about weather to exercise my option to extend the contract, I would essentially have two choices: 1) Exercise the option and pay millions for a 3% raise for the pilots. 2) Go back to the table and spend $0. Of course, choice #2 also comes with a potential labor dispute, but I'm not sure that it's as much of a fore-gone conclusion, as some of you guys seem to think, that this contract goes for five years....

The reason management wants a five year contract so badly, is so they can tell their prospective customers that they won't have any labor disputes for the next 5 years in the hopes of selling 5 year contracts. I'm fine with that if the pay is there, but it isn't, so getting it cheap virtually guarantees that the TA would be optioned for years 4 & 5. If management chose to go back to the table, they would definitely face a disgruntled workforce and all that implies. They might escape an increase in labor cost for a while, but unless we're in the midst of the Great Depression II, the pilots aren't going to settle for such crappy pay the next time around, and there is likely to be retro-pay clause in the next TA too. Ask any NJ pilot what their lump retro pay was.

... I think it's very possible that we are back at the table in 2.5 years. Remember for management, it all about the money.

It is all about the money, and the 3% penalty to extend doesn't even keep up with the average annual cost of living increase. The only way that management won't exercise their option to extend this contract if if the economy tanks into the next great depression, or booms back to the levels of 2006/7, and demand is so high that they cant attract a sufficient number of pilots. I seriously doubt either will happen in the next 5 years. What economists are predicting, is a drastic increase in the rate of inflation. If that happens, the cost of living will obviously be up more than the 3% we'll see and we'll all have less spending power, even with that meager increase.

 

[ultrarunner]

...I think the tide is slowly turning against the TA now that people are reading and realizing what we are locking ourselves into for 5 years.

Five years is when it becomes Amendable! Plan on what, at LEAST two years to negotiate a new one.

You're really looking at working for 7 to 8 years under the agreement. Think about that!

 

[ITFL]

The reason management wants a five year contract so badly, is so they can tell their prospective customers that they won't have any labor disputes for the next 5 years in the hopes of selling 5 year contracts. I'm fine with that if the pay is there, but it isn't, so getting it cheap virtually guarantees that the TA would be optioned for years 4 & 5. If management chose to go back to the table, they would definitely face a disgruntled workforce and all that implies. They might escape an increase in labor cost for a while, but unless we're in the midst of the Great Depression II, the pilots aren't going to settle for such crappy pay the next time around, and there is likely to be retro-pay clause in the next TA too. Ask any NJ pilot what their lump retro pay was.

It is all about the money, and the 3% penalty to extend doesn't even keep up with the average annual cost of living increase. The only way that management won't exercise their option to extend this contract if if the economy tanks into the next great depression, or booms back to the levels of 2006/7, and demand is so high that they cant attract a sufficient number of pilots. I seriously doubt either will happen in the next 5 years. What economists are predicting, is a drastic increase in the rate of inflation. If that happens, the cost of living will obviously be up more than the 3% we'll see and we'll all have less spending power, even with that meager increase.

Your making my argument for me here. Again, given that the union's leadership has more information than we do, including information about the companies financials and is recommending we vote to ratify this TA. Who are you to try to persuade pilots to reject it, unless of course you have some information they don't. Other than your own opinion and speculation, what more/different information do you have than they do and what is it?

The basis of your argument here, is that the companies cost of extending the contract is 3%. If fact what the language in Section 30 of the TA says, "If the Company exercises the unilateral option set forth in subsection 30.3, then effective [first day of the fourth year of contract], 2013, the rates of pay in the salary tables set forth in subsection 27.1 shall be increased by three percent...". So the 3% is on top of the 3.5 percent longevity increase, set forth in Section 27, for a total of 6.6%(considering compounding), which is well above traditional inflation. And if the company exercises it's option to extend to a fifth year, the average pilot will see an additional 6.6% applied to the fourth year rate.

Are you still sure the company will exercise their options to extend?

With all respect, don't you think you should at least be familiar with the TA, let alone what went into negotiating it before you advise people to vote it down?

 

[ArtVandalay]

The new sic pay scale is a joke!
You can see where they are going to come with this extra 10% from, they are going to take it from the fo's.

Yr Old New
8 63156 61069
9 66366 63206
10 69846 65419
11 73500 67708

What a F!@#ing Joke!!!

The joke is that you have 11 year f/o's

 

[dime line]

The joke is that you have 11 year f/o's

Thanks goes to Sheringa AKA Signature CEO for that one.

 

[993_Pilot]

Your making my argument for me here. Again, given that the union's leadership has more information than we do, including information about the companies financials and is recommending we vote to ratify this TA. Who are you to try to persuade pilots to reject it, unless of course you have some information they don't. Other than your own opinion and speculation, what more/different information do you have than they do and what is it?

I am a MIGS since day one, and someone who will be affected by this contract for many years to come, if it passes. I have every right to voice my opinion about this contract, here or anywhere else I choose. I can't believe that you would even suggest that that I don't have the right, simply because I disagree with the eboard. The eboard is emotionally vested in this TA and they worked long and hard to get it. I am sure that they feel that they did the best that they could, and I would imagine they are more ready to be done than anyone. Not that I don't appreciate their effort, but that doesn't require me to vote yes. In 2004 the netjets board said the same things about their TA that our eboard is telling us now. "Management doesn't have the money", "We got all we could", etc. That contract got strongly voted down and 9 months later they raised the bar and set new industry standards with the TA that was ratified in 2005. I don't expect that we're going to set industry standards, or that we should even try get NJ wages or work rules, but perhaps our eboard is too burned out to continue? I won't blindly follow any leader and would suggest that you have a responsibility to question them too. If you won't do that, then at least think long and hard before putting blind faith in anything.

The basis of your argument here, is that the companies cost of extending the contract is 3%. If fact what the language in Section 30 of the TA says, "If the Company exercises the unilateral option set forth in subsection 30.3, then effective [first day of the fourth year of contract], 2013, the rates of pay in the salary tables set forth in subsection 27.1 shall be increased by three percent...". So the 3% is on top of the 3.5 percent longevity increase, set forth in Section 27, for a total of 6.6%(considering compounding), which is well above traditional inflation. And if the company exercises it's option to extend to a fifth year, the average pilot will see an additional 6.6% applied to the fourth year rate.

Let's not add any confusion here. I never said that any pilot will only get a 3% raise in years 4 and 5, I simply said that there is a 3% penalty for the company to exercise their option to extend the contract. That is true. Please don't try to twist my words to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about.

Are you still sure the company will exercise their options to extend?

I thought I made that clear. YES, I'm pretty confident. We will still be so underpaid compared to our competition, and aside from the 3% increase to the pay tables, they will be putting off paying Ford & Harrison for another 2 years. That savings alone would probably be larger than the 3% increase to the pilots!

With all respect, don't you think you should at least be familiar with the TA, let alone what went into negotiating it before you advise people to vote it down?

I am familiar with the TA and I appreciate the effort that went in to it. It has been a long, arduous process, and we are all ready to be done with it, but that doesn't mean that I have to like it. Although the work rules could definitely use some improvement, overall, they're not bad for a first contract. The huge disconnect for me is the pay vs. duration equation... They are not proportional. If the pay sucks (and it does), this needs to be a shorter duration to have my support. If the duration is important to management (and we know it is), then they need to bring up the pay to something closer to industry standards to have my support. Simple as that!