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Flight options new pay

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For those of us who are furloughed. When and if we are ever recalled, what pay will we return to? Will we return to the year pay we were furloughed in plus 10%? Or do we accrue seniority we regard to pay as well? The union should post a numerical pay scale of each year of service for everyone to view. Just saying a 10% raise with regard to base salary does not sell me.

Whatever the primary annual salary table says for your years in service (flying). So if you were collecting year 5 SIC pay when furloughed you will collect year 5 pay on the primary annual salary table - $55,081.10 for an 8&7 schedule.
 
GSD,

I don't agree. I think the large percent raises you see may not apply to anyone because those people are on furlough now....

This is mainly to show people if 1108 is raising the bar for the industry or just for the pilots currently on the seniority list.
 
AS a pilot who has worked at a airline with no contract, I voted for a sub-standard contract just for the peace of mind. It was great to not have to worry about getting fired for calling in sick or tired or anything else they could think of. I felt it was work for less or maybe not work at all. I also had a family. It's a very personal decision I think about often.
 
Really? Do those “INDUSTRY STANDARD” wages come with Scope protections? ... How about duty and rest rules? Do you get overtime for getting home late? Will your company compensate you with an additional day off if they screw you on your go-home day? Do you get overtime if they get you up too early on your first day of work? Can your company violate your rest and call you at all hours of the night and on your days off the let you know you have trips? Is your seniority protected in a legally enforceable document? If you are furloughed, can you expect furlough pay or recall rights? How many crew bases can you choose from? If you take a leave of absence will your job, let alone your seniority and longevity be guaranteed upon your return? How many schedule types do you have to choose from and can your management change them? Do you get a company credit card to use for meals while on the road, so you can pocket all of your per-diem? Can your company change your health insurance benefits at their sole discretion?

Last and most importantly, if you cross that ever invisible line while at work, can you be disciplined or terminated without just cause? Do you have the right to representation in the event of discipline? Will a System Board sit to hear your appeal when they discharge you? How long is your contract good for?

Easy for you to say, “Keep up the good fight” when you slunk away “2 ½ years ago” to avoid that fight.

Spoken like someone on the negotiating committee clinging to their jobs. I didn't "slunk" away from anything, I ran like hell because I saw what was happening. You can take shots at me all you like but I have many friends left there at FLOPS and I want what is best for them - not to settle for less than they are worth. Oh and for the record, when I was at FLOPS I was a LARGE part of the card organization drive and a big union supporter and also a P2P member. So take all the shots at me you want, from the sounds of it you're only interested in you (likely clinging to your negotiation committee position) and not the best interests of your fellow pilots. Not sure what it was I said that angered you so badly. I simply stated to vote with your heads and not your hearts and I stand by it. Best of luck to all the pilots at FLOPS (even you, whoever you are)...
 
The new sic pay scale is a joke!
You can see where they are going to come with this extra 10% from, they are going to take it from the fo's.

Yr Old New
8 63156 61069
9 66366 63206
10 69846 65419
11 73500 67708

What a F!@#ing Joke!!!
 
GSD,

I don't agree. I think the large percent raises you see may not apply to anyone because those people are on furlough now....

Well, you're probably right. Like I said, I'm not sure what it means. Can't decide if it would be worse to have a crappy contract or none at all. I feel for the FLOPS guys.
 
No, I think it's the other way around...The senior guys get the better deal. The more junior guys (the biggest union supporters) get hosed with the pay scale.

I think Sky has it correct, the senior guys in the bigger A/C will still get crappy pay compared to the competition, but not near as badly as the BJ drivers at the bottom of the list who are the highest percentage of MIGS. I'll be surprised if this passes.
 
This is the formula that dictates what we will be paid if any in addition to the 3% COL bump we will get. Can one of you math guy please decipher this and give us some examples of what the company has to do before we will get anything else if the company starts to fly more.

CR=(FO*FOhrs+FF*FFhrs+JP*JPhrs)/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)+(MF*(FOhrs+FFhrs))/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)
 
Well, you're probably right. Like I said, I'm not sure what it means. Can't decide if it would be worse to have a crappy contract or none at all. I feel for the FLOPS guys.

This won't happen. Management needs this contract as much as we do. without it and with the possibility of a possible job action hanging over them it makes sales and growth very hard.

If we vote no, this TA will be taken back to the table and management will come up with more.
 
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Ok, if you will take the blinders off and actually make an argument against the points I make. Where am I off track? I have "genuine and well founded concerns" about the sanity of anyone who argues that, in this economy, we should vote down a contract that would give an average 36% raise to every union pilot on this property over five years. Sure parts of it SUCK, tell me how you would go about fixing that. What's the plan?

Or you could just continue making accusations.

That is exactly what I am going to do. I'm going through the TA, each section and every word. So far the verdict is the work rules are just so so, nothing that is that great. Initial pay also nothing to be proud of either, we'll see if someone, maybe you, can decipher the cryptic formula used to measure what we get paid over and above the COLA 3%. Also because extension of the contract is solely at the discretion of management, and the extremely low pay increase they are being exposed to, they will extend this to 5 years. So no matter how you paint this it, it is a 5 year contract and we will be stuck with it.
 
That is exactly what I am going to do. I'm going through the TA, each section and every word. So far the verdict is the work rules are just so so, nothing that is that great. Initial pay also nothing to be proud of either, we'll see if someone, maybe you, can decipher the cryptic formula used to measure what we get paid over and above the COLA 3%. Also because extension of the contract is solely at the discretion of management, and the extremely low pay increase they are being exposed to, they will extend this to 5 years. So no matter how you paint this it, it is a 5 year contract and we will be stuck with it.

I think it's good you are thoroughly reading through the document. I also understand some of your initial complaints and I'm sure if you look really hard you can find some other things to take issue with. I intend to focus on all the things we are getting, things that we didn't have before, like, again an average of 36% pay increase across the seniority list over the life of the contract. Other things like OT for airlines before 07:30 on day one, last day work rules, which are pretty good, the job protections contained in an excellent scope clause, grievance and system board language which looks top-notch to me, meals paid by the company on a company credit card, the most extensive list of domiciles and grandfathered domiciles in the industry, uniforms bought and paid for by the company, vacation that we can actually bid and take, 8 extra PTO days by the end of the contract, 25% 7&7 schedule available by the end of the contract, duty and rest rules, the non-union frac pilots would kill for. These are all things we have LOCKED DOWN in this contract. I know you've probably been around long enough to have received the BB email taking something you liked away? I know I have.

So please do read the contract, ask your questions, hopefully in the Q&A section of the union's message board but not on here. I was on the P2P call the other night when we were told by the negotiators that they did not leave any money on the table and that in their opinion (based on a trip into the companies books with a PhD economist) the company did not have any more money. They also said the union was told by the NMB that they would not get a release and would probably put negotiations in recess (something they can do regardless of the union/company objection) for a lengthy period of time if the TA is rejected. Why would they lie about that? They work here and will have to work and live with or without this contract?

Has it ever occurred to you that although you can surely find plenty things to complain about in this TA, including the pay which, lets be honest sucks, maybe the union is telling the truth and because of the economy, this is the best deal we can get? If that is the case, voting it down would only risk money coming off the table, due to the loss of business which will result from owners abandoning the company when the news invariably gets out that the pilots rejected the TA. Frankly I think there is a danger here in comparing our situation that of NJ in 2004 as I've seen others (some of whom should know better) do in this forum. The NJ pilots were able to exploit a robust economy, and a very wealthy backer (Berkshire) to fund their pay increase. I think there will be little argument, ever from you, that we are in a very different place here at Flight Options.
 
ITFL: But remember, you essentially hired the union to represent you.

BTDI: You also hired Congress to represent you. However, their approval rating is below 15%. I'm just sayin'......LOLOL

The company I left had a Pilot Advisory Committee that was made up of 100% Captains and no FO's. When you aren't in the FO's shoes....it can be very easy to lose them in the negotiations. That might explain why people are complaining that the Senior guys are going to do well in this TA and the bottom feeders will not. Either way.....good luck!
 
ITFL

I am keeping an open mind about it and you are right there are many good things about this TA. Thats not the question, the question is if the TA as a whole is a good thing. This has to be judged free of fear about what will happen if it is not ratified. It either is good as a whole or it isn't. Please tell me how you calculated the 36%. I have been playing with the numbers and have not come up with anything close to that. Using Excel I have tried to make that formula for Supplemental pay work using some simple assumptions and it won't play. So please educate me.

I can't even say the pay sucks, although disappointing on the surface, it can not be accurately measured until someone has a reliable working model of the supplemental pay formula. As there are many good things in the TA that cost the company very little other then making themselves become more efficient, there are many things that at least appear on the surface to be very bad. If it is not voted in and ratified I do not think the NMB mediator, management or the Union would put it on ice. All sides have to much to lose to let the contract go unaddressed. The NJ pilots did have a lot going for them that we don't at the moment and I don't think anyone is expecting NJ level pay. I do believe that all of us expect all that can be afforded and a verifiable way for all of us to gage whether we are getting a fair cut of the pie as the company recovers. I personally do not want to leave it to the "Union", "management", or some "PHD" to just tell me there is none now and no way to truly measure it in the 5 years we will be stuck with this contract.

You said you are P2P and are commissioned to spread the good word. I on the other hand have the luxury of being able to consider the TA in total with no agenda.
 
Havent seen it..But The only thing I know about Flops is that they dont have large companies backing them and they have piss poor management..
 

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