Flight options new pay

[dime line]

Ok, if you will take the blinders off and actually make an argument against the points I make. Where am I off track? I have "genuine and well founded concerns" about the sanity of anyone who argues that, in this economy, we should vote down a contract that would give an average 36% raise to every union pilot on this property over five years. Sure parts of it SUCK, tell me how you would go about fixing that. What's the plan?

Or you could just continue making accusations.

Thats a big part of my complaint with this contract, Its 5 years.(3+1+1). A lot can happen in 3-5 years.

 

[993_Pilot]

Ok, if you will take the blinders off and actually make an argument against the points I make. Where am I off track? I have "genuine and well founded concerns" about the sanity of anyone who argues that, in this economy, we should vote down a contract that would give an average 36% raise to every union pilot on this property over five years. Sure parts of it SUCK, tell me how you would go about fixing that. What's the plan?

Or you could just continue making accusations.

The average pilot will get nothing close to a 36% average raise. There are a lot of pilots out there that are presently getting (crappy) PIC pay, that will not be able hold a PIC position after the tables go into effect in Jan. 2011. Probably the better portion of the bottom half of the seniority list will get an initial raise of 10%, then frozen, because they will be bumped to SIC for the pay tables. Unless a furloughed pilot gets recalled before Jan. 2011, they will get a 0% raise and be frozen. The luckier senior guys in the C-X and Legacy will see 35 - 45% increase over 5 years, but they are a small percentage of the pilots on the seniority list and the lowest percentage of MIGS too, therefore won't have much impact on the vote.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Math Wiz

Can one of you math wiz types please decode this.


CR=(FO*FOhrs+FF*FFhrs+JP*JPhrs)/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)+(MF*(FOhrs+FFhrs))/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)

 

[wacoflyr]

Can one of you math wiz types please decode this.


CR=(FO*FOhrs+FF*FFhrs+JP*JPhrs)/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)+(MF*(FOhrs+FFhrs))/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)

Is that algebra? or calculus? Intense. You Options guys are smart!

 

[Alaska82]

current pilots will get the higher pay old plus 10% or new which ever is greater
furloughed recalled after January 1, 2011 higher of your old pay or new pay but no 10% increase.
8&7 First officer
OLD New
33996 48000 41.2%
36000 49680 38.0%
39996 51418 28.56%
45996 51418 28.56%
51996 55081 15.7%
54396 57008 4.8%
56796 59004 3.89%
63156 61069 negative
66372 63206 negative
69852 65419 negative
73500 67708 negative
74700 70078 negative
75900 72531 negative
77100 75069 negative
78300 77697 negative

7&7
OLD NEW
33996 45000 32.37%
36000 46575 29.38%
39996 48205 20.52%
45996 49892 8.4%
51996 51638 negative
54396 53445 negative
56796 55316 negative
63156 57252 negative
66372 59256 negative
69852 61330 negative
73500 63476 negative
74700 65698 negative
75900 67998 negative
77100 70378 negative
78300 72841 negative

16+2 if you work 16
OLD NEW
33996 48729 43.34%
36000 50434 40.01%
39996 52200 30.51%
45996 54027 17.46%
51996 55918 7.54%
54396 57875 6.4%
56796 59900 5.47%
63156 61997 negative
66372 64167 negative
69852 66413 negative
73500 68737 negative
74700 71143 negative
75900 73633 negative
77100 76210 negative
78300 78877 0.74%

 

[gutshotdraw]

Outsider thought:

That sounds like the company agreed to a TA that helps the junior guys and hurts the senior guys. And since the senior guys always control what happens in ANY union, it sounds to me like the company doesn't want it to pass. And I'm not really sure what that means...

 

[Alaska82]

Small Cabin
Captains
8&7

Old NEW
51996 58824 13.13%
54264 60882 12.2%
56796 63013 10.94%
63156 65219 3.27%
66372 67501 1.7%
69852 69864 0.02%
73500 72309 negative
74700 74840 0.19%
75900 77459 2.06%
77100 80171 3.98%
78300 82977 5.97%
80700 85881 6.42%
83100 88887 6.94%
85500 91998 7.6%
87900 95218 8.32%

7&7

OLD NEW
51996 55147 6.06%
54264 57077 5.19%
56796 59075 4.01%
63156 61143 negative
66372 63283 negative
69852 65497 negative
73500 67790 negative
74700 70163 negative
75900 72618 negative
77100 75160 negative
78300 77791 negative
80700 80513 negative
83100 86248 3.78%
85500 89266 4.41%
87900 92391 5.11%

16+2 if you work 16
OLD NEW
51996 59717 14.85%
54264 61807 13.9%
56796 63971 12.63%
63156 66210 4.84%
66372 68527 3.25%
69852 70926 1.54%
73500 73408 negative
74700 75977 1.71%
75900 78637 3.61%
77100 81389 5.56%
78300 84237 7.58%
80700 87186 8.04%
83100 90237 8.59%
85500 96664 9.97%

 

[gunfyter]

GSD,

I don't agree. I think the large percent raises you see may not apply to anyone because those people are on furlough now....

 

[skyismyoffice]

No, I think it's the other way around...The senior guys get the better deal. The more junior guys (the biggest union supporters) get hosed with the pay scale.

 

[Alaska82]

Outsider thought:

That sounds like the company agreed to a TA that helps the junior guys and hurts the senior guys. And since the senior guys always control what happens in ANY union, it sounds to me like the company doesn't want it to pass. And I'm not really sure what that means...

I think the average captain is 10 plus years and the average fo is 6 plus years. this mainly effects new hires in the future. I think the 6 year fo is getting..... well it is what it is. which is strange because i was told that the beechjet sics were the strongest union supporters.

 

[skyismyoffice]

For those of us who are furloughed. When and if we are ever recalled, what pay will we return to? Will we return to the year pay we were furloughed in plus 10%? Or do we accrue seniority we regard to pay as well? The union should post a numerical pay scale of each year of service for everyone to view. Just saying a 10% raise with regard to base salary does not sell me.

Whatever the primary annual salary table says for your years in service (flying). So if you were collecting year 5 SIC pay when furloughed you will collect year 5 pay on the primary annual salary table - $55,081.10 for an 8&7 schedule.

 

[Alaska82]

GSD,

I don't agree. I think the large percent raises you see may not apply to anyone because those people are on furlough now....

This is mainly to show people if 1108 is raising the bar for the industry or just for the pilots currently on the seniority list.

 

[ABUSED PILOT]

AS a pilot who has worked at a airline with no contract, I voted for a sub-standard contract just for the peace of mind. It was great to not have to worry about getting fired for calling in sick or tired or anything else they could think of. I felt it was work for less or maybe not work at all. I also had a family. It's a very personal decision I think about often.

 

[1po'dpilot]

Really? Do those “INDUSTRY STANDARD” wages come with Scope protections? ... How about duty and rest rules? Do you get overtime for getting home late? Will your company compensate you with an additional day off if they screw you on your go-home day? Do you get overtime if they get you up too early on your first day of work? Can your company violate your rest and call you at all hours of the night and on your days off the let you know you have trips? Is your seniority protected in a legally enforceable document? If you are furloughed, can you expect furlough pay or recall rights? How many crew bases can you choose from? If you take a leave of absence will your job, let alone your seniority and longevity be guaranteed upon your return? How many schedule types do you have to choose from and can your management change them? Do you get a company credit card to use for meals while on the road, so you can pocket all of your per-diem? Can your company change your health insurance benefits at their sole discretion?

Last and most importantly, if you cross that ever invisible line while at work, can you be disciplined or terminated without just cause? Do you have the right to representation in the event of discipline? Will a System Board sit to hear your appeal when they discharge you? How long is your contract good for?

Easy for you to say, “Keep up the good fight” when you slunk away “2 ½ years ago” to avoid that fight.

Spoken like someone on the negotiating committee clinging to their jobs. I didn't "slunk" away from anything, I ran like hell because I saw what was happening. You can take shots at me all you like but I have many friends left there at FLOPS and I want what is best for them - not to settle for less than they are worth. Oh and for the record, when I was at FLOPS I was a LARGE part of the card organization drive and a big union supporter and also a P2P member. So take all the shots at me you want, from the sounds of it you're only interested in you (likely clinging to your negotiation committee position) and not the best interests of your fellow pilots. Not sure what it was I said that angered you so badly. I simply stated to vote with your heads and not your hearts and I stand by it. Best of luck to all the pilots at FLOPS (even you, whoever you are)...

 

[fly26]

10%!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?...oh man...stfd

 

[I'Zheet M'Drarz]

The new sic pay scale is a joke!
You can see where they are going to come with this extra 10% from, they are going to take it from the fo's.

Yr Old New
8 63156 61069
9 66366 63206
10 69846 65419
11 73500 67708

What a F!@#ing Joke!!!

 

[gutshotdraw]

GSD,

I don't agree. I think the large percent raises you see may not apply to anyone because those people are on furlough now....

Well, you're probably right. Like I said, I'm not sure what it means. Can't decide if it would be worse to have a crappy contract or none at all. I feel for the FLOPS guys.

 

[993_Pilot]

No, I think it's the other way around...The senior guys get the better deal. The more junior guys (the biggest union supporters) get hosed with the pay scale.

I think Sky has it correct, the senior guys in the bigger A/C will still get crappy pay compared to the competition, but not near as badly as the BJ drivers at the bottom of the list who are the highest percentage of MIGS. I'll be surprised if this passes.

 

[SilverSurfer]

This is the formula that dictates what we will be paid if any in addition to the 3% COL bump we will get. Can one of you math guy please decipher this and give us some examples of what the company has to do before we will get anything else if the company starts to fly more.

CR=(FO*FOhrs+FF*FFhrs+JP*JPhrs)/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)+(MF*(FOhrs+FFhrs))/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)

 

[SilverSurfer]

Well, you're probably right. Like I said, I'm not sure what it means. Can't decide if it would be worse to have a crappy contract or none at all. I feel for the FLOPS guys.

This won't happen. Management needs this contract as much as we do. without it and with the possibility of a possible job action hanging over them it makes sales and growth very hard.

If we vote no, this TA will be taken back to the table and management will come up with more.