Flight options new pay

[FR8DOG777]

Whoa there big fella. First of all this will be a five year contract for the company. Secondly we hired the union to represent us, and for many years they said they would finally level the playing field. If we accept this joke of a ta we will be working our butts of for a pittance of a wage. You know they will keep us so scaled back so to have us desperately low on coverage like always. Our corporate counterparts spend more time at home fly less than 200 hours per year and we will be gone from our families 60% of the time flying 500 hours a year. Flying is down that is true, but look how far they have scaled back the business and especially pilots. A bj generates 107,000 a month in fractional management fees, so your telling me that doesn't cover 4.3 pilots salaries. They will continue to play the hide the money shell game until the end of time. Time for plan B. I would rather quit than continue down the road were headed.

 

[ITFL]

Whoa there big fella. First of all this will be a five year contract for the company. Secondly we hired the union to represent us, and for many years they said they would finally level the playing field. If we accept this joke of a ta we will be working our butts of for a pittance of a wage. You know they will keep us so scaled back so to have us desperately low on coverage like always. Our corporate counterparts spend more time at home fly less than 200 hours per year and we will be gone from our families 60% of the time flying 500 hours a year. Flying is down that is true, but look how far they have scaled back the business and especially pilots. A bj generates 107,000 a month in fractional management fees, so your telling me that doesn't cover 4.3 pilots salaries. They will continue to play the hide the money shell game until the end of time. Time for plan B. I would rather quit than continue down the road were headed.

What are you, my dad? No we have a three year contract that contains expensive options, the company can exercise to extend the contract. Yes the union said they would level the playing field and then the WORST ECONOMIC CRISIS IN EIGHTY YEARS came along. NJ lost close to a billion dollars last year and furloughed 500 pilots, CA and Flex lost millions and furloughed. We do not have the deep pockets of the aircraft manufacturers or Berkshire behind us, so our company can't afford to loose that kind of dough and survive. Yes the business was scaled back, and that makes my point. The business was scaled back to the level of survival. You been in the OCC lately? Yea they hid the money, right in the operation.

Look, an argument can be made that if this company can't afford to pay it's pilots at the same level as the other three Fractional companies, they don't deserve to be in business. I buy that argument, except that the union is telling us that that really cant afford to pay their pilots at that level. So the choice for pilots is, burn the house down, or live to fight another day, get back to the table and try to do better then.

You wanna quit, fine, but some of us don't have other options. I'd rather take my chances here, for now, and if things don't get better in a few years when the economy recovers and there are jobs out there I will start looking. So don't hang around here, leave, save us all of your unrealistic, borderline delusional expectations. Sometimes there is no bogeyman, sometimes there is just reality. Deal with it or move on. Meanwhile I'll take my 46% raise, over 5 years, and take my wife out to dinner for the first time in a long time.

 

[SilverSurfer]

What are you, my dad? No we have a three year contract that contains expensive options, the company can exercise to extend the contract. Yes the union said they would level the playing field and then the WORST ECONOMIC CRISIS IN EIGHTY YEARS came along. NJ lost close to a billion dollars last year and furloughed 500 pilots, CA and Flex lost millions and furloughed. We do not have the deep pockets of the aircraft manufacturers or Berkshire behind us, so our company can't afford to loose that kind of dough and survive. Yes the business was scaled back, and that makes my point. The business was scaled back to the level of survival. You been in the OCC lately? Yea they hid the money, right in the operation.

Look, an argument can be made that if this company can't afford to pay it's pilots at the same level as the other three Fractional companies, they don't deserve to be in business. I buy that argument, except that the union is telling us that that really cant afford to pay their pilots at that level. So the choice for pilots is, burn the house down, or live to fight another day, get back to the table and try to do better then.

You wanna quit, fine, but some of us don't have other options. I'd rather take my chances here, for now, and if things don't get better in a few years when the economy recovers and there are jobs out there I will start looking. So don't hang around here, leave, save us all of your unrealistic, borderline delusional expectations. Sometimes there is no bogeyman, sometimes there is just reality. Deal with it or move on. Meanwhile I'll take my 46% raise, over 5 years, and take my wife out to dinner for the first time in a long time.

Dude you are way to deep in the Union coolaid. Take the blinders off for a minute and really consider all the aspects of this TA before you start taking shots at guys that are expressing genuine and well founded concerns about various aspects of the TA that SUCK.

 

[chainring]

Whoa there big fella. First of all this will be a five year contract for the company. Secondly we hired the union to represent us, and for many years they said they would finally level the playing field. If we accept this joke of a ta we will be working our butts of for a pittance of a wage. You know they will keep us so scaled back so to have us desperately low on coverage like always. Our corporate counterparts spend more time at home fly less than 200 hours per year and we will be gone from our families 60% of the time flying 500 hours a year. Flying is down that is true, but look how far they have scaled back the business and especially pilots. A bj generates 107,000 a month in fractional management fees, so your telling me that doesn't cover 4.3 pilots salaries. They will continue to play the hide the money shell game until the end of time. Time for plan B. I would rather quit than continue down the road were headed.

So you've seen the company books. You know for a fact that they can just pay us more huh. Everyones a expert on how much money is available. You say you would rather quit. Sounds tough, maybe you should ask some of the furloughees how much fun there having beeing out of work. So what do you think were going to get. 5% more? 10% more. In my opinions in todays market thats a huge gamble.

 

[ITFL]

Dude you are way to deep in the Union coolaid. Take the blinders off for a minute and really consider all the aspects of this TA before you start taking shots at guys that are expressing genuine and well founded concerns about various aspects of the TA that SUCK.

Ok, if you will take the blinders off and actually make an argument against the points I make. Where am I off track? I have "genuine and well founded concerns" about the sanity of anyone who argues that, in this economy, we should vote down a contract that would give an average 36% raise to every union pilot on this property over five years. Sure parts of it SUCK, tell me how you would go about fixing that. What's the plan?

Or you could just continue making accusations.

 

[dime line]

Ok, if you will take the blinders off and actually make an argument against the points I make. Where am I off track? I have "genuine and well founded concerns" about the sanity of anyone who argues that, in this economy, we should vote down a contract that would give an average 36% raise to every union pilot on this property over five years. Sure parts of it SUCK, tell me how you would go about fixing that. What's the plan?

Or you could just continue making accusations.

Thats a big part of my complaint with this contract, Its 5 years.(3+1+1). A lot can happen in 3-5 years.

 

[993_Pilot]

Ok, if you will take the blinders off and actually make an argument against the points I make. Where am I off track? I have "genuine and well founded concerns" about the sanity of anyone who argues that, in this economy, we should vote down a contract that would give an average 36% raise to every union pilot on this property over five years. Sure parts of it SUCK, tell me how you would go about fixing that. What's the plan?

Or you could just continue making accusations.

The average pilot will get nothing close to a 36% average raise. There are a lot of pilots out there that are presently getting (crappy) PIC pay, that will not be able hold a PIC position after the tables go into effect in Jan. 2011. Probably the better portion of the bottom half of the seniority list will get an initial raise of 10%, then frozen, because they will be bumped to SIC for the pay tables. Unless a furloughed pilot gets recalled before Jan. 2011, they will get a 0% raise and be frozen. The luckier senior guys in the C-X and Legacy will see 35 - 45% increase over 5 years, but they are a small percentage of the pilots on the seniority list and the lowest percentage of MIGS too, therefore won't have much impact on the vote.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Math Wiz

Can one of you math wiz types please decode this.


CR=(FO*FOhrs+FF*FFhrs+JP*JPhrs)/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)+(MF*(FOhrs+FFhrs))/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)

 

[wacoflyr]

Can one of you math wiz types please decode this.


CR=(FO*FOhrs+FF*FFhrs+JP*JPhrs)/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)+(MF*(FOhrs+FFhrs))/SUM(FOhrs,FFhrs,JPhrs)

Is that algebra? or calculus? Intense. You Options guys are smart!

 

[Alaska82]

current pilots will get the higher pay old plus 10% or new which ever is greater
furloughed recalled after January 1, 2011 higher of your old pay or new pay but no 10% increase.
8&7 First officer
OLD New
33996 48000 41.2%
36000 49680 38.0%
39996 51418 28.56%
45996 51418 28.56%
51996 55081 15.7%
54396 57008 4.8%
56796 59004 3.89%
63156 61069 negative
66372 63206 negative
69852 65419 negative
73500 67708 negative
74700 70078 negative
75900 72531 negative
77100 75069 negative
78300 77697 negative

7&7
OLD NEW
33996 45000 32.37%
36000 46575 29.38%
39996 48205 20.52%
45996 49892 8.4%
51996 51638 negative
54396 53445 negative
56796 55316 negative
63156 57252 negative
66372 59256 negative
69852 61330 negative
73500 63476 negative
74700 65698 negative
75900 67998 negative
77100 70378 negative
78300 72841 negative

16+2 if you work 16
OLD NEW
33996 48729 43.34%
36000 50434 40.01%
39996 52200 30.51%
45996 54027 17.46%
51996 55918 7.54%
54396 57875 6.4%
56796 59900 5.47%
63156 61997 negative
66372 64167 negative
69852 66413 negative
73500 68737 negative
74700 71143 negative
75900 73633 negative
77100 76210 negative
78300 78877 0.74%

 

[gutshotdraw]

Outsider thought:

That sounds like the company agreed to a TA that helps the junior guys and hurts the senior guys. And since the senior guys always control what happens in ANY union, it sounds to me like the company doesn't want it to pass. And I'm not really sure what that means...

 

[Alaska82]

Small Cabin
Captains
8&7

Old NEW
51996 58824 13.13%
54264 60882 12.2%
56796 63013 10.94%
63156 65219 3.27%
66372 67501 1.7%
69852 69864 0.02%
73500 72309 negative
74700 74840 0.19%
75900 77459 2.06%
77100 80171 3.98%
78300 82977 5.97%
80700 85881 6.42%
83100 88887 6.94%
85500 91998 7.6%
87900 95218 8.32%

7&7

OLD NEW
51996 55147 6.06%
54264 57077 5.19%
56796 59075 4.01%
63156 61143 negative
66372 63283 negative
69852 65497 negative
73500 67790 negative
74700 70163 negative
75900 72618 negative
77100 75160 negative
78300 77791 negative
80700 80513 negative
83100 86248 3.78%
85500 89266 4.41%
87900 92391 5.11%

16+2 if you work 16
OLD NEW
51996 59717 14.85%
54264 61807 13.9%
56796 63971 12.63%
63156 66210 4.84%
66372 68527 3.25%
69852 70926 1.54%
73500 73408 negative
74700 75977 1.71%
75900 78637 3.61%
77100 81389 5.56%
78300 84237 7.58%
80700 87186 8.04%
83100 90237 8.59%
85500 96664 9.97%

 

[gunfyter]

GSD,

I don't agree. I think the large percent raises you see may not apply to anyone because those people are on furlough now....

 

[skyismyoffice]

No, I think it's the other way around...The senior guys get the better deal. The more junior guys (the biggest union supporters) get hosed with the pay scale.

 

[Alaska82]

Outsider thought:

That sounds like the company agreed to a TA that helps the junior guys and hurts the senior guys. And since the senior guys always control what happens in ANY union, it sounds to me like the company doesn't want it to pass. And I'm not really sure what that means...

I think the average captain is 10 plus years and the average fo is 6 plus years. this mainly effects new hires in the future. I think the 6 year fo is getting..... well it is what it is. which is strange because i was told that the beechjet sics were the strongest union supporters.