Flexjet Union

[shanes123]

Spoke with some FJ pilots recently. Seems there's a union drive starting over there. Guy I talked to said we are starting to see what's going on and we don't like it. Gonna get interesting

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

You're not under any threat from FJ crews so stay out of our business and we'll do the same. Just STFU for awhile and let things unfold at their own pace. When things finally do swing towards organizing it will be difficult to play the hero role when you've been playing antagonist role for so long.

Guess what? The pilot groups are going to merge. Pull your head out of the sand. We are all the same and we work for the same company. Do you want control over how it merges? Or do you want the Ricci-ites deciding for you? Better get onboard now.

...and I'm not even talking about the further degradation you are going to suffer without a union after The Ricci-ites get rid of it just because of cowards sitting on the sideline and trying to hold onto their bologna sandwich while they have their way with you.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Looks like you had your knee pads ready!! You were more than willing to show the pilot group at Flex how a "kiss a$$" kisses a$$ in order to screw their fellow pilots so you can get your upgrade out of seniority.

What's bad is, you did this while making ~$100k a year.

You greedy pos! We have a good job and your greed is tearing the company apart. Remember it's a small industry!

WOW el. Sounds like you are starting to get sick of the "knee pad club". These guys pretend they have everyone's interest in mind but are really only out for themselves. They become the mouth pieces for management. They want to be the leaders of the other pilots but once they are exposed, we can no longer be fooled by their bs. You just hit a home run. Welcome onboard.

 

[slowtation capt]

Let's all welcome Mr. Alan Ray!

His primary function will be the directing of all safety programs for Flight Options, as well as Flexjet.

Alan's primary office is located at our Cleveland facility, If you are in CGF anytime soon.

 

[luckydog]

lucky, gee, I must have really struck a nerve! Stay out of our business? STFU for awhile? Backoff with the spineless crap? My oh my! That's all the incentive I need to keep speaking, thanks.

Not at all. If you'd like to sit up on your pedestal and continue to tell us over at FJ how we're doing it all wrong and prove it with your success at making Flight Options what it is today, by all means go right ahead.

It kind of reminds of of watching the monkeys fling poop at the zoo, it's fun to watch as long as none of it lands on your clothes but in the end it's still just monkeys throwing their own poop because they have nothing better to do.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Lucky you didn't have to be so blatent about it. Everyone knows there are pilots at FO that enjoy watching the FX pilots get hit with the poop. The true union supporters are trying to elevate the WHOLE pilot group. Take the high ground, and ignore them. They play right into the hands of Uncle who wants to find another issue to divide us.

 

[Praetorian]

It's a shame your only answer to every single issue is the IBT.

The Globals, weren't on the property before DAC, and I don't think they're even owned by FJ. Aircraft at both FO and FX are owned by a variety of entities, we operate in the Fractional industry after all, so ownership is a moot point. What's important is that the Globals are on your certificate and FO pilots are flying them out of seniority.

The 450s and 350s aren't here yet so the dedicated crew/FLOPs takeaways haven't even happened. Retirement isn't here either. Are you suggesting we do nothing to prepare for it?

I have said all along that there are 2 ways to get the FJ pilots to even think about organizing with the IBT.

1. Earn it by showing show how our careers & lives would be enhanced by joining. Sounds like an organizing campaign. That means an integration plan other than the loud mouth Flight Info voices shouting Date-Of-Hire! I'm sure some FO pilots would like to see it done by DOH, however there are others who would be disenfranchised by this method. Furthermore, I don't remember seeing anything official from the union on seniority integration. Do you? It also means a contract that increases our pay and benefits, not one that uses FJ pay as leverage to increase FLOPs pay. Your putting the cart before the horse here. You have to be organized as a collective bargaining unit, before you can even try to negotiate a new contract. Unless your suggesting the FO pilots do this for you, like the NJ pilots did in the past? You're not going to get off that easy this time. Also, what seems to be lost on many of you, is that except for wages, the FO CBA provides for a working situation that is far superior to what your management currently gives you at FX, and it's in writing so it can't be changed.

-or-

2. Let KR recruit for the IBT by slowly dismantling our work rules and QOL protections.

If you can't/won't take the #1 option, then just be patient and KR do all the work for you.

His timeline doesn't seem to be quick enough for you though so the answer to every problem is the same. The more you push, the more FJ pilots push back.

OK let's talk about #2. The problem with that strategy is that while he's slowly undermining your QOL, he's simultaneously attempting to undermine the pilots morale at FO and put pressure on their union to file for a single carrier prematurely.

He's doing things at FO like shunning the pilots and keeping them in the dark by denying them access to yammer. He's trying to create disunity and fear by offering positions at FX to our pilots, in order to create the illusion of instability at FO. "Run for your lives." And now he's trying to poison the well over at FX, because a majority of the pilots who did run and will run are dyed in the wool union haters who will tell you guys how awful the union really is, thereby forestalling a union drive at FX.

There seems to be a perception held by many of the FX pilots that if you decide to join the FO pilots in their union, this will result in an integration. The reality is this is going to happen no matter what you do. Open your eyes to whats happening around you. Globals flown by FO pilots, safety and MX functions combined, scheduling and dispatch strongly rumored to be moving to CGF, your CEO is gone, gang crewing of 350 and Gulfstreem aircraft out of seniority under the threat that, "FO pilots will fly them if you don't sign up for this". We are all being whipsawed by a master.

At the end of the day there is only one way out of this situation for all of us. The pilots at both Flight Options and Flexjet must band together, form a strong union of pilots and take control of our futures. We can break the spell he currently holds over us, we put an end to his games. No more playing one pilot group off the other, no more playing games with our seniority lists, no more getting up every morning wondering when the other shoe is going to drop.

So yes, to be blunt, the IBT is the only answer in this situation, because it's the only viable union available to us. You have to stop looking at the IBT as some outside entity. The truth is Local 1108's leadership is made up of Fractional pilots why fly the line. The IBT Airline Division's leadership is made up of retired pilots, most of whom are former ALPA officials.

Who do think is more apt to look out for us, the pilots or the capitalists who run DAC? If you keep trying to deny what's right in front of your nose, it will eventually be too late.

I've yet to hear a plan other than, wait and see, from you. Remember, if he is successful in his efforts to undermine the 1108 and manipulate the situation so it goes away, the immediate threat of a union at FX will go away with it. What's the plan then?

OK, so lets play this out... I bet many of you will answer, "If things get bad, we will organize a new union then." I think what many of the FO pilots who've posted on here are trying to get across to you is, at that point, you/we will have traded in a fully functioning union for a fledgling union. In the time it takes to organize a new union, negotiate a new CBA and stand up a new union, years will have passed. During that time we will also all be at-will. The FO pilots don't want to be at-will. Set aside everything else we've said. This is what we're trying to get you to understand. This is the thing he doesn't want you to grasp.

 

[BlueNose]

Let's all welcome Mr. Alan Ray!

His primary function will be the directing of all safety programs for Flight Options, as well as Flexjet.

Alan's primary office is located at our Cleveland facility, If you are in CGF anytime soon.

That's because the's the Chief Safety Officer for OneSky Flight, LLC, the new parent for both. Will be interesting to see what else gets consolidated, and what else gets moved around in the never ending shell game that is KR's business empire.

 

[slowtation capt]

That's because the's the Chief Safety Officer for OneSky Flight, LLC, the new parent for both. Will be interesting to see what else gets consolidated, and what else gets moved around in the never ending shell game that is KR's business empire.

Yes, that is correct, my point is, just another consolidation and integration. Something that is happening no matter what, even though some can't see it happening right before their eyes.

 

[CL-350]

Dirty Beech, V1 and the third stooge, make no mistake you guys are selling out your fellow pilots. You are bypassing the seniority system, a system that pilots live, breathe and sleep by. By going dedicated crew, you are isolating yourselves in more ways than one. You are going against The other at least 97% of pilots at Flex. Think your careers have been bumpy so far? Well you are about to make a bunch of enemies in a small world where friends are imperative. You guys keep trying to justify this but you just really can't other than what's in it for me me me.
Or you could check yourselves in the mirror and be men that your children can be proud of. Help us draw a line in the sand and stop this unpopular divisive policy before perpetuating it. If not, then live with the consequences.

 

[DirtyBeech]

Or you could not be a day late and a dollar short on the latest with the program, and Crewmember selection. I expect that of the Flops guys. They don't have access to the information we do. All you have to do is pick up a phone. Maybe you could directly ask under what condition the groups, yes, plural, told the DO that they wouldn't volunteer for the program. Ask him first.

If you want to threaten my livelihood while calling out my manhood, pick up the phone or do it in person.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Dirty Beech, V1 and the third stooge, make no mistake you guys are selling out your fellow pilots. You are bypassing the seniority system, a system that pilots live, breathe and sleep by. By going dedicated crew, you are isolating yourselves in more ways than one. You are going against The other at least 97% of pilots at Flex. Think your careers have been bumpy so far? Well you are about to make a bunch of enemies in a small world where friends are imperative. You guys keep trying to justify this but you just really can't other than what's in it for me me me.
Or you could check yourselves in the mirror and be men that your children can be proud of. Help us draw a line in the sand and stop this unpopular divisive policy before perpetuating it. If not, then live with the consequences.

Instead of questioning my manhood on this anonymous board, why don't you man up and just call me with your concerns like others have done. If you know me personally then you know I'm easy to talk to and if you don't know me, then just ask someone who does. It's really not that difficult. As far as the consequences for my actions, are we talking slashed tires? Firebombing my front door? Stalking my family? But seriously, contact me personally and since I and a few others are doing all the ground work trying to stay informed I'll be happy to bring you up to date. Or just contact the office. I'm pretty sure you're off on your 97% number.

 

[CL-350]

Flops guys, yes there is grumbling going on at Flexjet. We are trying to navigate this new world we are in where everybody seems to want something from us when we would like to be just left alone. We are facing a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. And every time I start drifting to your way of thinking, I get on this site and I am reset to factory settings. There are many on this board that are approaching this in a diplomatic way and others that hardly post that should post more often. But from where I sit, it looks like the lunatics are running the asylum. Some of you need to either walk away from your keyboards or just stop posting stupid $hit and let KR do your work for you. If there is strength in numbers, then you want us on your side , correct?
Also stop attacking certain fellow pilots. If you have to stoop to that level then your argument is weak. Don't know ASA very well but to my knowledge he is a respected hard working fellow pilot. Although I may not agree with all his views, I respect them nonetheless based on his experiences with unions just like I respect Flops pilots views based on their experiences with management. An attack on him or others is an attack on all of us.
I have not made the time to go to the Google school of IBT. What exactly are you offering other than protection from the bogeyman. Be specific. What would an integrated list look like? Are you guys after "our" seats? Are 7 to 10 year fences even possible? Can the combining of list be delayed so "our" FOs can get a chance to upgrade? Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? Educate us with your intentions instead of constantly throwing bombs. Until you guys look like the better option than KR, then don't expect us to join you.
Also I hope you guys kick butt on your negotiations. But many of you seem obsessed with our side of the house when your own side is burning. You might want to tell your new leaders to hold off on that filing. Although there is some migration towards organization, the numbers are no where close for support of IBT. File now, and there is a good chance you will lose IBT. But a couple of years from now, who knows. The longer you wait the better your chances. And just winning an election by 1% is not enough. I think the goal would be to have a unified pilot group working together towards a common goal. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are thinking otherwise, then you are missing the forest through the trees.
Everybody try and have a good holiday season. Even you dedicated crew doooshbags. I'll go heat up some popcorn.

 

[doh]

V1 and DirtyBeech, since you volunteered to be contacted, I have some questions. Will you be accruing and bidding for vacations with the rest of us? Will you accrue the same amount of pto as the rest of us? Will you be paid daily rate plus overtime above twelve hours? What year captain's pay will you accrue? Seniority minus one year? Are you still covered by the agreement (that will not change without a vote), or are you giving up all of the rules we currently have for some undefined job? I'd call you, but I have no idea who you are...

 

[CL-350]

V1, your response was a little dramatic. Your decisions probably won't affect me one way or the other. I know you are tired of hearing this but there is a good chance you will upgrade in the near future through seniority instead of falling on a sword. Call you? Never met you. But what you should do is call all the FOs and Lear Captains that are senior to you and explain your actions to them. I can see there is no changing your mind. I will leave you alone. You get to live with your decisions, not me.

 

[DirtyBeech]

V1 and DirtyBeech, since you volunteered to be contacted, I have some questions. Will you be accruing and bidding for vacations with the rest of us? Yes, and no. Will you accrue the same amount of pto as the rest of us? Yes. Will you be paid daily rate plus overtime above twelve hours? Hourly OT above 12 yes. Otherwise it's a salaried position. What year captain's pay will you accrue? See above. Seniority minus one year? See above. Are you still covered by the agreement (that will not change without a vote), or are you giving up all of the rules we currently have for some undefined job? Don't know. I'd call you, but I have no idea who you are...

Given that the program hasn't been announced, or even publicly outlined, these are the answers to my understanding.

Honestly, as mgt.

 

[V1 Rotate]

V1 and DirtyBeech, since you volunteered to be contacted, I have some questions. Will you be accruing and bidding for vacations with the rest of us?

As far as we know, yes.

Will you accrue the same amount of pto as the rest of us?

As far as we know, yes.

Will you be paid daily rate plus overtime above twelve hours?

Been told yes.

What year captain's pay will you accrue? Seniority minus one year?

Its a straight salary position. The pay was compared recently on Yammer.

Are you still covered by the agreement (that will not change without a vote), or are you giving up all of the rules we currently have for some undefined job?

Giving it up to work under other conditions. And besides, I didn't think our Agreement was worth the paper it's written on?

I'd call you, but I have no idea who you are...

V1, your response was a little dramatic. Your decisions probably won't affect me one way or the other. I know you are tired of hearing this but there is a good chance you will upgrade in the near future through seniority instead of falling on a sword. Call you? Never met you. But what you should do is call all the FOs and Lear Captains that are senior to you and explain your actions to them. I can see there is no changing your mind. I will leave you alone. You get to live with your decisions, not me.

I have spoken with a number of more senior guys than I. Their biggest concerns tend to be worrying if they'll be required to fly a dedicated tail if a dedicated crewmember is sick, in training, or in vacation (which I've been told they won't) or if we'll be flying undedicated tails if the dedicated plane breaks.

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Flops guys, yes there is grumbling going on at Flexjet. We are trying to navigate this new world we are in where everybody seems to want something from us when we would like to be just left alone. We are facing a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. And every time I start drifting to your way of thinking, I get on this site and I am reset to factory settings. There are many on this board that are approaching this in a diplomatic way and others that hardly post that should post more often. But from where I sit, it looks like the lunatics are running the asylum. Some of you need to either walk away from your keyboards or just stop posting stupid $hit and let KR do your work for you. If there is strength in numbers, then you want us on your side , correct?
Also stop attacking certain fellow pilots. If you have to stoop to that level then your argument is weak. Don't know ASA very well but to my knowledge he is a respected hard working fellow pilot. Although I may not agree with all his views, I respect them nonetheless based on his experiences with unions just like I respect Flops pilots views based on their experiences with management. An attack on him or others is an attack on all of us.
I have not made the time to go to the Google school of IBT. What exactly are you offering other than protection from the bogeyman. Be specific. What would an integrated list look like? Are you guys after "our" seats? Are 7 to 10 year fences even possible? Can the combining of list be delayed so "our" FOs can get a chance to upgrade? Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? Educate us with your intentions instead of constantly throwing bombs. Until you guys look like the better option than KR, then don't expect us to join you.
Also I hope you guys kick butt on your negotiations. But many of you seem obsessed with our side of the house when your own side is burning. You might want to tell your new leaders to hold off on that filing. Although there is some migration towards organization, the numbers are no where close for support of IBT. File now, and there is a good chance you will lose IBT. But a couple of years from now, who knows. The longer you wait the better your chances. And just winning an election by 1% is not enough. I think the goal would be to have a unified pilot group working together towards a common goal. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are thinking otherwise, then you are missing the forest through the trees.
Everybody try and have a good holiday season. Even you dedicated crew doooshbags. I'll go heat up some popcorn.

350, you seem like a voice of reason and a thoughtful person. That being said, I don't know all the answers about the RLA, but a 7 to 10 year fence, in this case, seems pretty unrealistic. I do know that Federal law requires a "fair and equitable" integration of the seniority lists, i.e., one group cannot simply be stapled to the bottom of the other. How that will look will have to be decided by all of us (or Uncle Kenn if the 1108 is voted out).

I can assure you that no true union member "wants " anything from you guys. What they want is the same thing that you want. A good, long term job. I, for one, only "want" one thing...ok... a couple of things: $365,000.00/year ($1000.00/calendar day) and work the third Wednesday of each month. If the company wants me to fly a 152 and wear a pink uniform with purple polka dots, I will do it. And, dammit, they had better not ask me to work more than 14 hours!

I have worked both with and without a contract. I can assure you, there are many things that the Flex pilots are going to want that the Options pilots have.

And I'm with you. I wish you all to have a great holiday season! Even the dedicated crew and Options crossover ******************************bags!
:beer:

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

Flops guys, yes there is grumbling going on at Flexjet. We are trying to navigate this new world we are in where everybody seems to want something from us when we would like to be just left alone. We are facing a choice of the lesser of 2 evils. And every time I start drifting to your way of thinking, I get on this site and I am reset to factory settings. There are many on this board that are approaching this in a diplomatic way and others that hardly post that should post more often. But from where I sit, it looks like the lunatics are running the asylum. Some of you need to either walk away from your keyboards or just stop posting stupid $hit and let KR do your work for you. If there is strength in numbers, then you want us on your side , correct?
Also stop attacking certain fellow pilots. If you have to stoop to that level then your argument is weak. Don't know ASA very well but to my knowledge he is a respected hard working fellow pilot. Although I may not agree with all his views, I respect them nonetheless based on his experiences with unions just like I respect Flops pilots views based on their experiences with management. An attack on him or others is an attack on all of us.
I have not made the time to go to the Google school of IBT. What exactly are you offering other than protection from the bogeyman. Be specific. What would an integrated list look like? Are you guys after "our" seats? Are 7 to 10 year fences even possible? Can the combining of list be delayed so "our" FOs can get a chance to upgrade? Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? Educate us with your intentions instead of constantly throwing bombs. Until you guys look like the better option than KR, then don't expect us to join you.
Also I hope you guys kick butt on your negotiations. But many of you seem obsessed with our side of the house when your own side is burning. You might want to tell your new leaders to hold off on that filing. Although there is some migration towards organization, the numbers are no where close for support of IBT. File now, and there is a good chance you will lose IBT. But a couple of years from now, who knows. The longer you wait the better your chances. And just winning an election by 1% is not enough. I think the goal would be to have a unified pilot group working together towards a common goal. Correct me if I am wrong. If you are thinking otherwise, then you are missing the forest through the trees.
Everybody try and have a good holiday season. Even you dedicated crew doooshbags. I'll go heat up some popcorn.

350, you seem like a voice of reason and a thoughtful person. That being said, I don't know all the answers about the RLA, but a 7 to 10 year fence, in this case, seems pretty unrealistic. I do know that Federal law requires a "fair and equitable" integration of the seniority lists, i.e., one group cannot simply be stapled to the bottom of the other. How that will look will have to be decided by all of us (or Uncle Kenn if the 1108 is voted out).

I can assure you that no true union member "wants " anything from you guys. What they want is the same thing that you want. A good, long term job. I, for one, only "want" one thing...ok... a couple of things: $365,000.00/year ($1000.00/calendar day) and work the third Wednesday of each month. If the company wants me to fly a 152 and wear a pink uniform with purple polka dots, I will do it. And, dammit, they had better not ask me to work more than 14 hours!

I have worked both with and without a contract. I can assure you, there are many things that the Flex pilots are going to want that the Options pilots have.

And I'm with you. I wish you all to have a great holiday season! Even the dedicated crew and Options crossover ******************************bags!
:beer:

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

That's because he's the Chief Safety Officer for OneSky Flight, LLC, the new parent for both. Will be interesting to see what else gets consolidated, and what else gets moved around in the never ending shell game that is KR's business empire. - BlueNose

Agreed. As an employee, I have to regularly look at this chart I keep of DAC & OneSky companies in order to keep it all straight. If I have to do it, can you imagine what the customers think? Dedicated crewing, FO pilots flying FJ painted a/c? FJ Pilots have had a year. What do they think of uncle's world? Is it good business or gaming?

Is in house a viable alternative with 700 pilots? CL350

UPS has 2516, NJ has 2926, & Southwest has 6830 pilots. Each has an in-house union. They can be a popular initial idea, however, you need a large population of employees for an in-house. Even then, without a "National" to provide council, support, & guidance, the risks multiply.

It comes down to numbers, meaning membership & money. You absolutely need an incredible amount of money for council. And when you do attain a contract, you'll need even more to defend the contract through arbitrations and grievances, as well as negotiate the next amendment.

Generally, in house movements are used as a distraction - i.e. FO's recent in-housers earlier this year. It's mgt that endorses an in-house union because they recognize and will routinely exploit their weaknesses.