Flexjet Union

[Pacific]

Disregard

 

[V1 Rotate]

.....

 

[V1 Rotate]

As of today, every team except one, has withdrawn from this program. Great job those of you who made the right decision. You last five need to get on the right side of this.

Not true. And I assure you there are more than 5-10 people who are interested.

 

[V1 Rotate]

The hybrid program was different. Don't use that program as another justification for your decision. The hybrid program was wholly owned aircraft that required crews to move so it couldn't be forced on people. Two completely different situations. We are still waiting on the dedicated program info. If it ends up paying less will you still voluntarily do the same job for less money than a fleet captain?

The long answer to your question of pay is "no."

And the hybrids were not completely different. Junior FO's could still upgrade and the fact that there were a set of different rules makes it even more like the dedicated program. If you were willing to accept the change in lifestyle then you were allowed to reap the benefits. i.e. early upgrade.

 

[asdf]

You guys should read some textbooks about different systems that employees are measured. Seniority has its inherit weakness, yes the marginal and very weak are secure of their job based on seniority and not performance. The good thing about seniority it tends to keep employees around for a long time. A performance based system has its good and bad characteristics as well. Its like pilots have never thought about any of these things.

 

[asdf]

Yes, what a bad day for all the junior employees at Flex. There is no opportunity, the very people that accuse the junior employees of being selfish should take a hard look in the mirror. They are selfish too, some of their post on yammer where despicable and one of the guys I will never respect again. It is clear he has his standards captains position - just as long as no one else will ever be promoted he is happy. Hope the external new hires enjoy flying the 350 as the pilot group has made it impossible for fellow junior Flex employees to be promoted.

 

[Pacific]

Seriously? So the company is not going to just let you step all over the seniority list and you are pissed about it...Boohoo

 

[asdf]

nevermind.

 

[asdf]

nevermind, not worth my time.

 

[dime line]

And we also need you Flight Options pilots to show us what it means to be union. You want us to join you, show us that you aren't just a bunch of backstabbing opportunists.

How do you backstab......its in writing/ can't be changed.... So again no backstabbing

 

[993_Pilot]

And we also need you Flight Options pilots to show us what it means to be union. You want us to join you, show us that you aren't just a bunch of backstabbing opportunists.

The vast majority of us are not. The few coming over to Flex are mostly selfish "fence sitters" and/or not members in good standing, and not many of us are sad to see them go. These tools are being used by KR to help divide and conquer. If you really want to know what the IBT 1108 is about, contact the leadership directly, and ask questions instead of assuming that a few vocal personalities here on FI represent the entire union.

 

[luckydog]

Yes, what a bad day for all the junior employees at Flex. There is no opportunity, the very people that accuse the junior employees of being selfish should take a hard look in the mirror. They are selfish too, some of their post on yammer where despicable and one of the guys I will never respect again. It is clear he has his standards captains position - just as long as no one else will ever be promoted he is happy. Hope the external new hires enjoy flying the 350 as the pilot group has made it impossible for fellow junior Flex employees to be promoted.

This is a bit overly dramatic isn't it?
If this concept were to go through there is absolutely no guarantee that any seat in any new airframe added at FJ would be held by a current FJ pilot! That would surely kill any advancement. As long as our seniority list is followed you have the same opportunity as always. If seniority isn't followed either by promoting new hire Options guys or off the street guys, then vote to organize.

My point is to wait until we are actually wronged before using the only ace we have. If we as a pilot group fold at the first bet then this is going to be are very bad ride.

As to the standards captain thing, is anyone surprised? I hope not.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

"If our FJ management isn't running the show, we'll organize. If we lose our pension, we'll organize. If they change anything on our "contract", we'll organize. If new pilots are paid more than we are, we'll organize. If junior pilots get to upgrade out of seniority, we'll organize. If we have dedicated crewing, we'll organize. If anyone but FJ pilots fly the Globals, we'll organize. If we have to wear some captain cupcake costume, we'll organize."

Collectively, the FJ pilots keep moving the line. Where & when does it end? You've been consistent only about saying the 1108 is bad and shaking your fist at uncle threatening to organize if he takes just one more step.

Then you've done nothing but roll over and waited for his next slap.

 

[luckydog]

"If our FJ management isn't running the show, we'll organize. If we lose our pension, we'll organize. If they change anything on our "contract", we'll organize. If new pilots are paid more than we are, we'll organize. If junior pilots get to upgrade out of seniority, we'll organize. If we have dedicated crewing, we'll organize. If anyone but FJ pilots fly the Globals, we'll organize. If we have to wear some captain cupcake costume, we'll organize."

Collectively, the FJ pilots keep moving the line. Where & when does it end? You've been consistent only about saying the 1108 is bad and shaking your fist at uncle threatening to organize if he takes just one more step.

Then you've done nothing but roll over and waited for his next slap.

Of all those things you've listed, what has actually happened?

New ugly uniforms, not serious enough to warrant the loss of seniority of integration.

New hires from FLOPs making more than the minimum, cool, less than the minimum, not cool.

 

[el raton]

You guys should read some textbooks about different systems that employees are measured. Seniority has its inherit weakness, yes the marginal and very weak are secure of their job based on seniority and not performance. The good thing about seniority it tends to keep employees around for a long time. A performance based system has its good and bad characteristics as well. Its like pilots have never thought about any of these things.

Looks like you had your knee pads ready!! You were more than willing to show the pilot group at Flex how a "kiss a$$" kisses a$$ in order to screw their fellow pilots so you can get your upgrade out of seniority.

What's bad is, you did this while making ~$100k a year.

You greedy pos! We have a good job and your greed is tearing the company apart. Remember it's a small industry!

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

really, luckydog? In the time it took you think up that red herring, you could have read half of them on any number of threads here.

 

[luckydog]

really, luckydog? In the time it took you think up that red herring, you could have read half of them on any number of threads here.

I'm really not a fish guy so I have no idea what herring you're talking about.

I gave up my pension years ago, I'm still getting a 401k match, and as far as I know the enhanced match is still there. There are no dedicated crew aircraft at Flexjet and the FLOPs pilots are flying (or will be flying) on Globals owned by Nextant.

I know you want to make a big deal over it all but it just hasn't happened yet. Give it time, someone from mgmt will eventually cross that "line in the sand". Then, if, the pilots don't act you can criticize. Until then, back off with the spineless crap. I'm sure you guys at FLOPs had your cards in the mail before you even started getting screwed right? That's why you lead the fractional industry in pay and QOL.

You're not under any threat from FJ crews so stay out of our business and we'll do the same. Just STFU for awhile and let things unfold at their own pace. When things finally do swing towards organizing it will be difficult to play the hero role when you've been playing antagonist role for so long.

 

[OldCrow]

FLOPs Pilot

I have got a lot of things I would rather use the $108/month than Union dues: however, it is well spent. I am a 15 year PIC and make $103,000/year. As of "right now", I have flown 748hrs this year.
With out the CBA of duty times, scheduling, no call in rest, maintenance resolution process, and being able to contact my Union Rep when things were beyond what I could do, physically, and beyond the CBA, this year would have been worse.
Granted, I'm glad that I flew so much, and made money for the company I fly for, BUT I have called fatigue 3 times this year. Without the protection of the CBA I would be a hurting Unit, me thinks. I am not a "dyed in the Union wool" guy, but without our CBA it would have been a year that I would not want to do again.
That's how this year was at FOLPs for me. If you FLEX guys think you'll get a better deal, drive on, and God Speed....but I think you might want to give this Union thing a look.
I think you all fly bout half as much as I have...and make 30-40% more....really, how long do you think that will pass, with your new/our leadership?

 

[dime line]

I have got a lot of things I would rather use the $108/month than Union dues: however, it is well spent. I am a 15 year PIC and make $103,000/year. As of "right now", I have flown 748hrs this year.
With out the CBA of duty times, scheduling, no call in rest, maintenance resolution process, and being able to contact my Union Rep when things were beyond what I could do, physically, and beyond the CBA, this year would have been worse.
Granted, I'm glad that I flew so much, and made money for the company I fly for, BUT I have called fatigue 3 times this year. Without the protection of the CBA I would be a hurting Unit, me thinks. I am not a "dyed in the Union wool" guy, but without our CBA it would have been a year that I would not want to do again.
That's how this year was at FOLPs for me. If you FLEX guys think you'll get a better deal, drive on, and God Speed....but I think you might want to give this Union thing a look.
I think you all fly bout half as much as I have...and make 30-40% more....really, how long do you think that will pass, with your new/our leadership?

Like Hotels at FLOPS, if the preferred is sold out, we don't go "up" in quality, we go "down" in quality. If FLEX thinks Ricci will keep paying 145000 for a Lear capt (if he doesn't have to), your sadly mistaken.

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

lucky, gee, I must have really struck a nerve! Stay out of our business? STFU for awhile? Backoff with the spineless crap? My oh my! That's all the incentive I need to keep speaking, thanks.

 

[shanes123]

Spoke with some FJ pilots recently. Seems there's a union drive starting over there. Guy I talked to said we are starting to see what's going on and we don't like it. Gonna get interesting

 

[Bill_Lumbergh]

You're not under any threat from FJ crews so stay out of our business and we'll do the same. Just STFU for awhile and let things unfold at their own pace. When things finally do swing towards organizing it will be difficult to play the hero role when you've been playing antagonist role for so long.

Guess what? The pilot groups are going to merge. Pull your head out of the sand. We are all the same and we work for the same company. Do you want control over how it merges? Or do you want the Ricci-ites deciding for you? Better get onboard now.

...and I'm not even talking about the further degradation you are going to suffer without a union after The Ricci-ites get rid of it just because of cowards sitting on the sideline and trying to hold onto their bologna sandwich while they have their way with you.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Looks like you had your knee pads ready!! You were more than willing to show the pilot group at Flex how a "kiss a$$" kisses a$$ in order to screw their fellow pilots so you can get your upgrade out of seniority.

What's bad is, you did this while making ~$100k a year.

You greedy pos! We have a good job and your greed is tearing the company apart. Remember it's a small industry!

WOW el. Sounds like you are starting to get sick of the "knee pad club". These guys pretend they have everyone's interest in mind but are really only out for themselves. They become the mouth pieces for management. They want to be the leaders of the other pilots but once they are exposed, we can no longer be fooled by their bs. You just hit a home run. Welcome onboard.

 

[slowtation capt]

Let's all welcome Mr. Alan Ray!

His primary function will be the directing of all safety programs for Flight Options, as well as Flexjet.

Alan's primary office is located at our Cleveland facility, If you are in CGF anytime soon.

 

[luckydog]

lucky, gee, I must have really struck a nerve! Stay out of our business? STFU for awhile? Backoff with the spineless crap? My oh my! That's all the incentive I need to keep speaking, thanks.

Not at all. If you'd like to sit up on your pedestal and continue to tell us over at FJ how we're doing it all wrong and prove it with your success at making Flight Options what it is today, by all means go right ahead.

It kind of reminds of of watching the monkeys fling poop at the zoo, it's fun to watch as long as none of it lands on your clothes but in the end it's still just monkeys throwing their own poop because they have nothing better to do.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Lucky you didn't have to be so blatent about it. Everyone knows there are pilots at FO that enjoy watching the FX pilots get hit with the poop. The true union supporters are trying to elevate the WHOLE pilot group. Take the high ground, and ignore them. They play right into the hands of Uncle who wants to find another issue to divide us.

 

[Praetorian]

It's a shame your only answer to every single issue is the IBT.

The Globals, weren't on the property before DAC, and I don't think they're even owned by FJ. Aircraft at both FO and FX are owned by a variety of entities, we operate in the Fractional industry after all, so ownership is a moot point. What's important is that the Globals are on your certificate and FO pilots are flying them out of seniority.

The 450s and 350s aren't here yet so the dedicated crew/FLOPs takeaways haven't even happened. Retirement isn't here either. Are you suggesting we do nothing to prepare for it?

I have said all along that there are 2 ways to get the FJ pilots to even think about organizing with the IBT.

1. Earn it by showing show how our careers & lives would be enhanced by joining. Sounds like an organizing campaign. That means an integration plan other than the loud mouth Flight Info voices shouting Date-Of-Hire! I'm sure some FO pilots would like to see it done by DOH, however there are others who would be disenfranchised by this method. Furthermore, I don't remember seeing anything official from the union on seniority integration. Do you? It also means a contract that increases our pay and benefits, not one that uses FJ pay as leverage to increase FLOPs pay. Your putting the cart before the horse here. You have to be organized as a collective bargaining unit, before you can even try to negotiate a new contract. Unless your suggesting the FO pilots do this for you, like the NJ pilots did in the past? You're not going to get off that easy this time. Also, what seems to be lost on many of you, is that except for wages, the FO CBA provides for a working situation that is far superior to what your management currently gives you at FX, and it's in writing so it can't be changed.

-or-

2. Let KR recruit for the IBT by slowly dismantling our work rules and QOL protections.

If you can't/won't take the #1 option, then just be patient and KR do all the work for you.

His timeline doesn't seem to be quick enough for you though so the answer to every problem is the same. The more you push, the more FJ pilots push back.

OK let's talk about #2. The problem with that strategy is that while he's slowly undermining your QOL, he's simultaneously attempting to undermine the pilots morale at FO and put pressure on their union to file for a single carrier prematurely.

He's doing things at FO like shunning the pilots and keeping them in the dark by denying them access to yammer. He's trying to create disunity and fear by offering positions at FX to our pilots, in order to create the illusion of instability at FO. "Run for your lives." And now he's trying to poison the well over at FX, because a majority of the pilots who did run and will run are dyed in the wool union haters who will tell you guys how awful the union really is, thereby forestalling a union drive at FX.

There seems to be a perception held by many of the FX pilots that if you decide to join the FO pilots in their union, this will result in an integration. The reality is this is going to happen no matter what you do. Open your eyes to whats happening around you. Globals flown by FO pilots, safety and MX functions combined, scheduling and dispatch strongly rumored to be moving to CGF, your CEO is gone, gang crewing of 350 and Gulfstreem aircraft out of seniority under the threat that, "FO pilots will fly them if you don't sign up for this". We are all being whipsawed by a master.

At the end of the day there is only one way out of this situation for all of us. The pilots at both Flight Options and Flexjet must band together, form a strong union of pilots and take control of our futures. We can break the spell he currently holds over us, we put an end to his games. No more playing one pilot group off the other, no more playing games with our seniority lists, no more getting up every morning wondering when the other shoe is going to drop.

So yes, to be blunt, the IBT is the only answer in this situation, because it's the only viable union available to us. You have to stop looking at the IBT as some outside entity. The truth is Local 1108's leadership is made up of Fractional pilots why fly the line. The IBT Airline Division's leadership is made up of retired pilots, most of whom are former ALPA officials.

Who do think is more apt to look out for us, the pilots or the capitalists who run DAC? If you keep trying to deny what's right in front of your nose, it will eventually be too late.

I've yet to hear a plan other than, wait and see, from you. Remember, if he is successful in his efforts to undermine the 1108 and manipulate the situation so it goes away, the immediate threat of a union at FX will go away with it. What's the plan then?

OK, so lets play this out... I bet many of you will answer, "If things get bad, we will organize a new union then." I think what many of the FO pilots who've posted on here are trying to get across to you is, at that point, you/we will have traded in a fully functioning union for a fledgling union. In the time it takes to organize a new union, negotiate a new CBA and stand up a new union, years will have passed. During that time we will also all be at-will. The FO pilots don't want to be at-will. Set aside everything else we've said. This is what we're trying to get you to understand. This is the thing he doesn't want you to grasp.

 

[BlueNose]

Let's all welcome Mr. Alan Ray!

His primary function will be the directing of all safety programs for Flight Options, as well as Flexjet.

Alan's primary office is located at our Cleveland facility, If you are in CGF anytime soon.

That's because the's the Chief Safety Officer for OneSky Flight, LLC, the new parent for both. Will be interesting to see what else gets consolidated, and what else gets moved around in the never ending shell game that is KR's business empire.

 

[slowtation capt]

That's because the's the Chief Safety Officer for OneSky Flight, LLC, the new parent for both. Will be interesting to see what else gets consolidated, and what else gets moved around in the never ending shell game that is KR's business empire.

Yes, that is correct, my point is, just another consolidation and integration. Something that is happening no matter what, even though some can't see it happening right before their eyes.

 

[CL-350]

Dirty Beech, V1 and the third stooge, make no mistake you guys are selling out your fellow pilots. You are bypassing the seniority system, a system that pilots live, breathe and sleep by. By going dedicated crew, you are isolating yourselves in more ways than one. You are going against The other at least 97% of pilots at Flex. Think your careers have been bumpy so far? Well you are about to make a bunch of enemies in a small world where friends are imperative. You guys keep trying to justify this but you just really can't other than what's in it for me me me.
Or you could check yourselves in the mirror and be men that your children can be proud of. Help us draw a line in the sand and stop this unpopular divisive policy before perpetuating it. If not, then live with the consequences.