Flexjet Union

[doh]

Given that the program hasn't been announced, or even publicly outlined, these are the answers to my understanding.

Honestly, as mgt.

"Yes and no" is not an answer. In fact, without an explanation, most of those are non answers.

 

[doh]

I have spoken with a number of more senior guys than I. Their biggest concerns tend to be worrying if they'll be required to fly a dedicated tail if a dedicated crewmember is sick, in training, or in vacation (which I've been told they won't) or if we'll be flying undedicated tails if the dedicated plane breaks.

My biggest concern is I'll be working harder than the midget and getting half, or less, compensation.

 

[Propilot77]

My biggest concern is I'll be working harder than the midget and getting half, or less, compensation.

That's the plan and the goal it seems but wait a couple of days something might change! Indecision and delays are the parents of failure. The only constant we now have is change.

 

[DirtyBeech]

"Yes and no" is not an answer. In fact, without an explanation, most of those are non answers.

It actually is an answer if you take it as two answers to your two part question. Yes, you will accrue vacation time like a line pilot. No, you will not bid against other line pilots for it. This is why I'd prefer you did your own legwork and ask mgt. Or ask someone in person. Reading comprehension is not generally a strong point in our field. Or you could continue to ask for second hand information about an unannounced program on a third party forum.

 

[shanes123]

Gonna get off topic here.I wish the FJ guys and a minority of the FLOPS guys would step back for a moment and ask yourselves why is KR so determined to bust the Union? If hes such a stand up guy that wants the best for his crews and have them be " The highest paid in the industry" (LOL) Whats the difference if he sits down with a pilot that has the IBT behind him, a inhouse union behind him or no one behind him? The guy he will be negotiating with, could possibly be the same exact guy. But if its not it still would be a line pilot from either FJ or FLOPS? so why does it matter to KR? The answer to me is clear. With a inhouse or no representation from a deep pocket national, KR can change rules, conditions, pay. anything he wants and theres not a damn thing anyone of us pilots could do about it. This isn't about the IBT or FJ pilots or Flops pilots. Its about all the crews having a decent fair pay scale coupled with quality of life and work rules that cant be changed with a email from KR. I look at it that us pilots are using the IBT for there deep pockets. We get a lot more from them then they get from us. But at the end of the day its our pilots that are fighting for us. Not the IBT not KR. The same exact guys that we share a cockpit with and talk about our families with have dinner with. Think about it everyone we should all be in this together.

 

[V1 Rotate]

My biggest concern is I'll be working harder than the midget and getting half, or less, compensation.

The schedules that I've seen would have you working less, actually. Hard to explain on here but the proposed schedules are better for amount of time off.

 

[SDCFI]

Gonna get off topic here.I wish the FJ guys and a minority of the FLOPS guys would step back for a moment and ask yourselves why is KR so determined to bust the Union? If hes such a stand up guy that wants the best for his crews and have them be " The highest paid in the industry" (LOL) Whats the difference if he sits down with a pilot that has the IBT behind him, a inhouse union behind him or no one behind him? The guy he will be negotiating with, could possibly be the same exact guy. But if its not it still would be a line pilot from either FJ or FLOPS? so why does it matter to KR? The answer to me is clear. With a inhouse or no representation from a deep pocket national, KR can change rules, conditions, pay. anything he wants and theres not a damn thing anyone of us pilots could do about it. This isn't about the IBT or FJ pilots or Flops pilots. Its about all the crews having a decent fair pay scale coupled with quality of life and work rules that cant be changed with a email from KR. I look at it that us pilots are using the IBT for there deep pockets. We get a lot more from them then they get from us. But at the end of the day its our pilots that are fighting for us. Not the IBT not KR. The same exact guys that we share a cockpit with and talk about our families with have dinner with. Think about it everyone we should all be in this together.

On the flip side if KR doesn't want a union at Flex he probably shouldn't start doing the things you outlined. So far we haven't "lost" anything yet but it sounds like if this dedicated crew concept comes to fruition, esp if some FO transfers wind up in these planes, then that just might be the tipping point for a successful union vote. They were supposed to release details on the DC program last week. Maybe the fact that they haven't yet means they are reconsidering the idea, at least the staffing part. I know KR has a bit of an ego, but he ain't no dummy. He has to have some idea that the FJ pilots are one small step from a union and he doesn't have a lot of room to jerk us around. Or maybe he doesn't care and will do what he wants and get the union he deserves. Only time will tell.

 

[V1 Rotate]

On the flip side if KR doesn't want a union at Flex he probably shouldn't start doing the things you outlined. So far we haven't "lost" anything yet but it sounds like if this dedicated crew concept comes to fruition, esp if some FO transfers wind up in these planes, then that just might be the tipping point for a successful union vote. They were supposed to release details on the DC program last week. Maybe the fact that they haven't yet means they are reconsidering the idea, at least the staffing part. I know KR has a bit of an ego, but he ain't no dummy. He has to have some idea that the FJ pilots are one small step from a union and he doesn't have a lot of room to jerk us around. Or maybe he doesn't care and will do what he wants and get the union he deserves. Only time will tell.

The guidelines didn't come out because they weren't specific enough. You're right about them reevaluating the program. They're currently working on a different approach to it based on the pushback. And for the record, I'm in favor of a new approach to it.

 

[CL-350]

LS, thanks for explaining in house at an 8th grade level so even I can understand. I can see the only option is probably IBT if we decide to go that route.
BL, thanks for the reply, I don't think I am any kind of bellwether, but I and others are expanding our horizons over here in case we are forced to make a decision about organizing or remaining status quo. I don't know what the tipping point is over here, but compensation and intimidation are no go items. The DC program might do it, but I think it will fail. Wait till our owners find out the new Red Label service is run by our least experienced crews and are nothing but islands for misfit toys.
Some of the other Flex guys on this board are right, nothing has really changed yet. The Globals in my opinion never really belonged to us and most of us just show up for work and go home with a check in the mailbox every couple of weeks.
What some Flops pilots on this board don't understand is our experience with management in the past is different from yours. We have a deeply ingrained mindset for the most part not to unionize. Changing a groups mindset happens at snails pace or will be accelerated by KR and his actions. I am guessing the latter. If I had to speculate, years from now we will be one combined unionized pilot group, pi$$ed with each other, pi$$ed off with management, pi$$ed off over our careers, just plain pi$$ed off. Why? Because its the nature of the beast. Pilots.

 

[luckydog]

LS, thanks for explaining in house at an 8th grade level so even I can understand. I can see the only option is probably IBT if we decide to go that route.
BL, thanks for the reply, I don't think I am any kind of bellwether, but I and others are expanding our horizons over here in case we are forced to make a decision about organizing or remaining status quo. I don't know what the tipping point is over here, but compensation and intimidation are no go items. The DC program might do it, but I think it will fail. Wait till our owners find out the new Red Label service is run by our least experienced crews and are nothing but islands for misfit toys.
Some of the other Flex guys on this board are right, nothing has really changed yet. The Globals in my opinion never really belonged to us and most of us just show up for work and go home with a check in the mailbox every couple of weeks.
What some Flops pilots on this board don't understand is our experience with management in the past is different from yours. We have a deeply ingrained mindset for the most part not to unionize. Changing a groups mindset happens at snails pace or will be accelerated by KR and his actions. I am guessing the latter. If I had to speculate, years from now we will be one combined unionized pilot group, pi$$ed with each other, pi$$ed off with management, pi$$ed off over our careers, just plain pi$$ed off. Why? Because its the nature of the beast. Pilots.

Great post CL, I really like the misfit toy reference, it even fits the season.
I'm not ready to give up on an in-house union. I don't believe the IBT, or any other national organization, will look out for our interests as well as we can. The IBT is the expedient route but I believe will be problematic in the short and near term while funding and experience are the immediate problems going it alone. Either way, it won't be an easy transition.

 

[V1 Rotate]

LS, thanks for explaining in house at an 8th grade level so even I can understand. I can see the only option is probably IBT if we decide to go that route.
BL, thanks for the reply, I don't think I am any kind of bellwether, but I and others are expanding our horizons over here in case we are forced to make a decision about organizing or remaining status quo. I don't know what the tipping point is over here, but compensation and intimidation are no go items. The DC program might do it, but I think it will fail. Wait till our owners find out the new Red Label service is run by our least experienced crews and are nothing but islands for misfit toys.
Some of the other Flex guys on this board are right, nothing has really changed yet. The Globals in my opinion never really belonged to us and most of us just show up for work and go home with a check in the mailbox every couple of weeks.
What some Flops pilots on this board don't understand is our experience with management in the past is different from yours. We have a deeply ingrained mindset for the most part not to unionize. Changing a groups mindset happens at snails pace or will be accelerated by KR and his actions. I am guessing the latter. If I had to speculate, years from now we will be one combined unionized pilot group, pi$$ed with each other, pi$$ed off with management, pi$$ed off over our careers, just plain pi$$ed off. Why? Because its the nature of the beast. Pilots.

When you don't know what you're talking about then you resort to name calling. Trust me, the people interested in the dedicated crew are the most junior people in the company. Quite a few CA's involved. And spare me the cheap shot about the experience.

 

[Frac Cap]

I think the dedicated crewing program is just the SFO program by another name.

 

[doh]

LS, thanks for explaining in house at an 8th grade level so even I can understand. I can see the only option is probably IBT if we decide to go that route.
BL, thanks for the reply, I don't think I am any kind of bellwether, but I and others are expanding our horizons over here in case we are forced to make a decision about organizing or remaining status quo. I don't know what the tipping point is over here, but compensation and intimidation are no go items. The DC program might do it, but I think it will fail. Wait till our owners find out the new Red Label service is run by our least experienced crews and are nothing but islands for misfit toys.
Some of the other Flex guys on this board are right, nothing has really changed yet. The Globals in my opinion never really belonged to us and most of us just show up for work and go home with a check in the mailbox every couple of weeks.
What some Flops pilots on this board don't understand is our experience with management in the past is different from yours. We have a deeply ingrained mindset for the most part not to unionize. Changing a groups mindset happens at snails pace or will be accelerated by KR and his actions. I am guessing the latter. If I had to speculate, years from now we will be one combined unionized pilot group, pi$$ed with each other, pi$$ed off with management, pi$$ed off over our careers, just plain pi$$ed off. Why? Because its the nature of the beast. Pilots.

Owner: I've heard you guys are the least experienced pilots!
Me: I've been flying professionally for 20+ years and I'm a former airline captain. In fact everyone of us is a former airline captain.
Owner: So that's not true. Are we ready to go?
Me: That is absolutely not true, and we are ready to go.
Your argument is so easily refuted. You need to stick to something intelligent.

 

[doh]

And just to be clear, I'm not signed up for this nonsense. But because it's a stupid idea, not because I lack experience.

 

[V1 Rotate]

When you don't know what you're talking about then you resort to name calling. Trust me, the people interested in the dedicated crew are the most junior people in the company. Quite a few CA's involved. And spare me the cheap shot about the experience.

Should've said "aren't."

 

[luckydog]

Owner: I've heard you guys are the least experienced pilots!
Me: I've been flying professionally for 20+ years and I'm a former airline captain. In fact everyone of us is a former airline captain.
Owner: So that's not true. Are we ready to go?
Me: That is absolutely not true, and we are ready to go.
Your argument is so easily refuted. You need to stick to something intelligent.

That would be a great comfort to the owner if he were on an airliner.

The least experienced crews at this company and on this equipment would have been much more accurate. He didn't say you wouldn't be qualified, but that's not a big hurdle.

V1, I haven't heard of any senior captains interested in this enough to even start the team building process. Maybe they are and won't admit it, it's possible 1 of us is being lied to. And by senior, I mean someone that is already a Challenger PIC.

 

[shanes123]

This Dedicated aircraft is B SHT. Its been done a few times at FLOPS already and it never worked. It stems from KR good pal JS trying to bring his Military line of nonsense into the civilian world. You would think after 3 failed attempts at FLOPS they would learn. Heres the scenario of what happened on a weekly basis with their dedicated aircraft . Crew based in say LAX another crew based in say TEB. Dedicated aircraft for TEB crew in LAX, dedicated aircraft for lax crew in teb. They would airline both crews across the country to there respective planes wasting time and money on airline tickets. Then they cried they had no money to give the crews raises cause the economy and business was so bad. It was nothing but waste, waste, waste!! So the union pilot reps said if you can afford to airline crews all over the country with your stupid FUBAR system you have then you can give all the pilots raises..Company got rid of dedicated aircraft. now their back at it again for a 4th time.

 

[V1 Rotate]

That would be a great comfort to the owner if he were on an airliner.

The least experienced crews at this company and on this equipment would have been much more accurate. He didn't say you wouldn't be qualified, but that's not a big hurdle.

V1, I haven't heard of any senior captains interested in this enough to even start the team building process. Maybe they are and won't admit it, it's possible 1 of us is being lied to. And by senior, I mean someone that is already a Challenger PIC.

You'd be surprised. But you're also correct that there aren't many, and I don't blame them. Either way, we'll see what happens. If the whole thing collapses tomorrow, then fine, and everyone not in the Lear fleet can rest easy knowing that the inexperienced Lear guys won't bring flying Challengers. If the program goes forward and there are issues that I don't agree with, then I'm out as well.

 

[CL-350]

DOH, fair enough, I kind of stepped in it with that statement and should have rephrased it. I upgraded in a year. You guys are more than qualified for just about anything at this point. If you look at my previous post that is one of my main concerns is FOs upgrading here and the DC program or integration of pilot groups could hurt that from happening.
V1, I don't want to get into a months long FI pi$$ing contest with you. You are right, I don't have all the information on the program or your personal situation. Maybe you can't afford braces for little Timmy and his life is ruined because the other kids in school have nick-named him Fang.
I don't know. You do what you feel like you need to so to take care of you and your family. The worst that will happen is you might become social outcast and get voted off survivor island. Although if you encounter some guys in the TEB stock locker with tube socks and a tan blanket, you might want to run. I am signing off for a while. FI is too much work. Everybody fly safe this winter. It looks like it will be a fun one.

 

[luckydog]

You'd be surprised. But you're also correct that there aren't many, and I don't blame them. Either way, we'll see what happens. If the whole thing collapses tomorrow, then fine, and everyone not in the Lear fleet can rest easy knowing that the inexperienced Lear guys won't bring flying Challengers. If the program goes forward and there are issues that I don't agree with, then I'm out as well.

The out of seniority aircraft assignment should be enough but it seems there's always a way to rationalize bad behavior.

The CL-350 is an extension of the CL-300 and should be covered under that 'iron clad' agreement we got prior to the start of the debacle.
Starting a couple of months ago, every CL-300 crew member going to recurrent training (short and long) took their check ride in a CL350 sim and is now qualified on the aircraft. This is not a situation where there aren't any pilots at FJ current/qualified on the airplane as would be the case if this were a new aircraft type.

I know that FOs not being able to move between fleets is a huge issue, but the dedicated crew program is not the way to finally get out of the LR45.