Flexjet Response to NJA new offer:

[FLYLOW22]

So what was the response?

 

[400pilot]

There's nothing illegal about floating rest under Part 135. It's a gray area that pilots have wanted cleaned up for years, however the FAA has decided not to fix it...yet. To their credit they did clear it up under 91k, however Flex management was able to convince the POI to allow us to use 135 rules for all operations, even those under 91 and 91k. So, Flex pilots do not get called during rest, that would be illegal. However we do get called during that period after required rest is satisfied, but we are not on duty yet, and under the current 135 rules can still be counted as "rest" when looking back. Does it suck? Yes. Is it illegal? Not right now. Aren't they supposed to be re-writing 135 or something? How close are they to being done?

Wrong, wrong, wrong.......

You need to do some research before stating something like this. You might want to check out the faa legal council interpretations on this very subject. They are now available on the faa website.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Okay 400, in this age of cut-and-paste, why don't you just post it, or a link to it.

 

[400pilot]

It appears that the legal interpretation part of the faa site is not working right now. This is a cut and paste from a pdf file that I have on the hard drive....

U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
800 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20591

In analyzing a pilot rest question, the first consideration is whether the rest period the
pilot received satisfies the requirement regarding the nature of a rest period, i.e., whether
the pilot received a period of time that complies with the three conditions the FAA finds
necessary to qualify as a rest period. The FAA has consistently stated through legal
interpretations that “rest” under the Federal Aviation Regulations is (1) a continuous
period of time; (2) determined prospectively; and (3) during which the crewmember is
free from all restraint by the certificate holder, including freedom from work or freedom
from present responsibility for work should the occasion arise. See, e.g., Letter from
Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division, to R.C McCormick
(June 25, 1996); Letter from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations
Division, to James W. Johnson (October 29,2002); and Letter from Donald P. Byrne,
Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division, to James W. Johnson (May 9,2003)
(copies enclosed).
Under your fact pattern, the questions are whether repeated phone calls effectively
terminate the continuous period of time required for rest, and whether the flight
crewmember is free from all restraint by the air carrier. If, under your scenario, the pilot
is obligated to answer the ringing telephone, then the entire period that the pilot was
under such an obligation is not part of the “rest period” - even if the carrier does not call
the pilot once during that period (this often is referred to as reserve or standby duty). See
Letter from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel, Regulations Division, to James
W. Johnson (June 23,200O) and Letter from Donald P. Byrne, Assistant Chief Counsel,
Regulations Division, to James R. Knight II (December 9, 1999) (copies enclosed). If, on
the other hand, the pilot is not under any obligation to answer the telephone or to be
available to answer the telephone, the time up to the duty report time is considered a
“continuous” rest period. See Letter from Byrne to Johnson (October 29,2002) and
Letter from Byrne to Johnson (June 23,200O). It is the FAA’s policy, under the
commonly referred to “one phone call exception,” that a rest period is not viewed as
interrupted if the air carrier makes contact with the pilot one time by telephone, pager or
the like.’ Once the contact is made, it cannot, however, be made again without
interrupting the rest period.
To reemphasize - under no circumstances is a pilot obligated to answer the telephone if
the pilot is considered to be on rest. It appears that some people overlook the voluntary
nature of receiving phone calls. Thus, if the pilot seeks to have an uninterrupted rest
’ period, the pilot certainly can take measures to prevent being contacted by the carrier,
e.g., if the pilot is staying at a hotel, the front desk can hold any incoming calls; or if the
pilot is at home, the telephone ringer can be turned off and an answering machine can
pick up calls. Further, a flight crewmember can provide written notification to the air
Note that the Federal Aviation Regulations do not explicitly allow “one phone call” from the carrier
during a pilot’s rest period. However, the FAA established the “one phone call” policy based on certain
.- , )
narrow conditions and the fact patterns presented to us. Generally speaking, an air carrier can initiate a
phone call and a pilot can - on his or her own volition - receive one call from an air carrier without the
phone call being viewed as disruptive and,breaking the continuous rest period.

 

[Club ORD FO]

huh....interesting. so, how does flex get away with the rest rules we work under?

 

[Pacific]

How about Online training that the company suggests we can complete while flying the line (in the hotel). If you're logged on and getting payed for it are you in rest?

 

[CL300Pilot]

The online training has to be completed 30 days prior to your long recurrent. They did not say that you must do it in your hotel while flying the line. When and how you do it is your choice. They merely stated that you will get paid the 4 hours to complete it.

Also, if so many pilots were not griping about having to be at training for 7 days on the long recurrent, we would not be doing this online training in the first place. A definite case of be careful what you wish for.

How about Online training that the company suggests we can complete while flying the line (in the hotel). If you're logged on and getting payed for it are you in rest?

 

[CL300Pilot]

400pilot,

Your posting is great information for the masses. I just want to clarify one thing.

The section that I have cut and pasted from your quote is how Flexjet operates. The company can contact us one time. Those times are either 2 hours after off duty or 2 hours prior to duty. Typically it is 1700 local to 1900 local or 0300 to 0500 local.

The 2 hours prior is usually how we get contacted by the company due to changes. That is how they do it. Also, we are not required nor do we have to have our dingleberries on during our rest period.

Also, if we initiate the contact with the company and they respond, that is not an interuption of rest either.

I know plenty of Captains who turn off their phones.

Has it happened, yes I am sure it has. Does it happen all the time. No.

That being said, thank you for your posting because it was good reading.

CL300Pilot

It is the FAA’s policy, under the
commonly referred to “one phone call exception,” that a rest period is not viewed as
interrupted if the air carrier makes contact with the pilot one time by telephone, pager or
the like.’ Once the contact is made, it cannot, however, be made again without
interrupting the rest period.
To reemphasize - under no circumstances is a pilot obligated to answer the telephone if
the pilot is considered to be on rest.

 

[JokerFuel]

Check out the airline profile for Citation shares and compare it to that of Flexjet. CS has about the same amount of pilots. The pay scale is similar. Yet they offer 25 domiciles and the 7&7 schedule. Ask yourself then why we cannot seem to achieve this at Flex?
Our management will not make any significant change of their own merrit. Why? Because they dont have to do anything. That's just business.
If we want to enjoy the Pay, QOL, Rest, and Domicile enhancements of our industry contemporaries then we must force it. As individuals our company will pick us off one by one. As a group we can make it happen, we need unity now more than ever.
Again, I am not a malcontent, I really like my job. The new numbers at NJA (if ratified) speak for themselves. We deserve the enhancements.

 

[400pilot]

CL300,

It all depends on what the policy is. If your company requires you to be available and answer your phone, then it is not considered rest. However, in the example you provided, I see how the one phone call exception is being used. This post was more in response to the previous one about floating rest. Specifically,

There's nothing illegal about floating rest under Part 135.

and

However we do get called during that period after required rest is satisfied, but we are not on duty yet, and under the current 135 rules can still be counted as "rest" when looking back.

 

[CL300Pilot]

I absolutely agree with you. I just want those who are interested in Flex to know the truth. The unfortunate part is that we have people who exagerate both sides of how the company operates.

Anyone who has ever watched my postings knows that I don't BS people. I tell it like it is.

Again, I appreciate your ruling posting because it was very enlightening.

CL300Pilot

CL300,

It all depends on what the policy is. If your company requires you to be available and answer your phone, then it is not considered rest. However, in the example you provided, I see how the one phone call exception is being used. This post was more in response to the previous one about floating rest. Specifically,

and

 

[DirtyBeech]

forward the suspension letter noted in a previous post on to the flexjet poi and get his feeling about it.ask him how the other fractional operators all have full rest when crews are released from duty, but flexjet doesnt have to. How could that be?you can say they havent called you in rest for two years, HOWEVER, they have the right to do it, and believe me when the time comes, THEY WILL....contact your POI, I am helping you out by sending a copy of the suspension letter, along with a letter to FAA agency in Washington DC to get the ball rolling.I am only here to help....www.ibt1108.org (the truth shall set you free)

The ibt1108 Flex website has a grand total of 50 something members with an all time high of 13 members viewing at one time. Sorry, but with 400+ pilots a union is just not going to happen with those numbers. Very underwhelming.

I hope to heck the NJ's contract passes and it forces Flex to step up and offer something on par with our competitors. But, I'm polishing up my resume just in case they don't.

 

[dime line]

The ibt1108 Flex website has a grand total of 50 something members with an all time high of 13 members viewing at one time. Sorry, but with 400+ pilots a union is just not going to happen with those numbers. Very underwhelming.

I hope to heck the NJ's contract passes and it forces Flex to step up and offer something on par with our competitors. But, I'm polishing up my resume just in case they don't.

The FLOPS IBT site has about 90% of the pilots signed up, and everday we see people with their first posts chime in on the site...

 

[Propilot77]

I registered at 1108 6 months ago and can't logon to see what is going on there!

 

[Club ORD FO]

Your posting is great information for the masses. I just want to clarify one thing.



CL300Pilot

300 and 400, can you help clarify this a bit more? This is a good discussion...

Lets say I duty off at 6pm, and given a show time of 10am the next morning, and lets also agree that they can all 2 hours prior. So, does that mean they can only call after 8am the next day? It seems to me that they call 8 hours after rest began, which would be 2am in my example. I know I have had days where i thought I was working at noon or something, but the phone rang at 5am. Is that or is that not a violation of the rest rules?

What if, in my example, I keep my phone off until 8am. If they try to call me at 5am and cant get a hold of me, do I get in trouble?

Another example. Duty off at 6am again, given a 11pm show the next night. So a red eye for the next day. Lets say I plan on staying up all night, then maybe going to bed at 7am or so in order to be rested correctly for the red eye. I watch all sorts of re-runs and paid programming, then my phone rings at 6am, and it is the company telling me there is a change of plans, and I have to go to the airport. Can they or can they not do that?


Sincerely,
Tossing and Turning in Teterhole

 

[dime line]

300 and 400, can you help clarify this a bit more? This is a good discussion...

Lets say I duty off at 6pm, and given a show time of 10am the next morning, and lets also agree that they can all 2 hours prior. So, does that mean they can only call after 8am the next day? It seems to me that they call 8 hours after rest began, which would be 2am in my example. I know I have had days where i thought I was working at noon or something, but the phone rang at 5am. Is that or is that not a violation of the rest rules?

What if, in my example, I keep my phone off until 8am. If they try to call me at 5am and cant get a hold of me, do I get in trouble?

Another example. Duty off at 6am again, given a 11pm show the next night. So a red eye for the next day. Lets say I plan on staying up all night, then maybe going to bed at 7am or so in order to be rested correctly for the red eye. I watch all sorts of re-runs and paid programming, then my phone rings at 6am, and it is the company telling me there is a change of plans, and I have to go to the airport.

Can they or can they not do that?

Sincerely,
Tossing and Turning in Teterhole

About your gettnig into trouble, go and ask 630 pilots at FLOPS if they are getting into trouble. I know I'm not, and my phone if off as soon as the release comes thru, and only comes on at Duty on time.


can they or not......This is their game that your playing, using their rules, untill we at FLOPS get a contract it will be their game. So to answer your question, they can do anything they want, when they want and if you don't like it, not their problem

 

[NJAPLT]

I registered at 1108 6 months ago and can't logon to see what is going on there!

[email protected]

(614) 863-2008

I'm sure they will be able to help you regain access to the message boards.

 

[SDCFI]

Club ORD, just to clarify the FOM actually says we are contactable in the first and last 2 hours of the rest period, not 2 hours prior to duty. So in your example of duty off at 1800 with a 1000 show you would be contactable from 1800-2000 and 0200-0400. It does not however say that you must answer the call, that would be a clear violation of rest. Here is my question: what happens to the period between 0400-1000? The problem is the company gets to have its cake and eat it too. They operate under the premise that they can use you anytime after 0400, as you would have 10 hours of rest, but also if they don't use you until 1000 the time from 0400-1000 is counted as rest because they didn't call you. After reading the comments here and the FAA interpretation of rest via the Whitlow letter I would argue that not only are we not obligated to answer the phone during rest, but we are not usable anytime before 1000 unless the duty period begins at 0400 or the company officially places us in rest until 1000. Since rest has to be prospective in nature they have to tell us we are in rest from 0400-1000, if we are obligated to answer the phone during that period it can't be rest. Along these same lines they should be giving us a rest/duty period while doing home/hotel standby so that we can plan our sleep accordingly.

 

[gunfyter]

DING DING ... We have a winner!

 

[brokeflyer]

Club ORD, just to clarify the FOM actually says we are contactable in the first and last 2 hours of the rest period, not 2 hours prior to duty. So in your example of duty off at 1800 with a 1000 show you would be contactable from 1800-2000 and 0200-0400. It does not however say that you must answer the call, that would be a clear violation of rest. Here is my question: what happens to the period between 0400-1000? The problem is the company gets to have its cake and eat it too. They operate under the premise that they can use you anytime after 0400, as you would have 10 hours of rest, but also if they don't use you until 1000 the time from 0400-1000 is counted as rest because they didn't call you. After reading the comments here and the FAA interpretation of rest via the Whitlow letter I would argue that not only are we not obligated to answer the phone during rest, but we are not usable anytime before 1000 unless the duty period begins at 0400 or the company officially places us in rest until 1000. Since rest has to be prospective in nature they have to tell us we are in rest from 0400-1000, if we are obligated to answer the phone during that period it can't be rest. Along these same lines they should be giving us a rest/duty period while doing home/hotel standby so that we can plan our sleep accordingly.

I remember those days...back when i flew charters.....I hated that stuff....come to netjets and your showtime is the only time they can call you.....lol