Flexjet Recalls Two Flight Attendants, Janitor

[Pervis]

I don't know the specifics since the union has kicked us out of the union message board. Either way, it's a lot less money in the pilots' pockets at the end of the year and a change in the way things are interpreted in the CBA. It sets a precedent that's not good.

Wrong. That's the trouble with not knowing the specifics. As far as the union web site, nothing prohibits you from calling the union to learn the specifics.

 

[ArtVandalay]

I don't know the specifics since the union has kicked us out of the union message board. Either way, it's a lot less money in the pilots' pockets at the end of the year and a change in the way things are interpreted in the CBA. It sets a precedent that's not good.

Hey why don't you $ick heads talk about this in private messages. or go chew the Majors thread up with your talk that no one wants to see

 

[notapilot]

We lack the intestinal fortitude to step and and protect ourselves! When you have soooooo many 300 and 604 captains and f/o's begging for overtime, why do we need anything else. This group cares only about themselves and that is all they will ever care about. Anything the 300 group wants they get for 2 reasons. First, they are the biggest. Second, it is the chief pilots fleet there fore he does what they ask for.

Please provide more information about your accusations. What postion are you in that you know how much OT is being asked for from 2 different fleets and seats? I don't dispute people are asking for OT. I am sick of our own group attacking each other. We are all on the same team and I guarantee you that an equal number of people are asking for OT from every fleet and seat. I have seen FOs on the bottom of the seniority list ask for OT. This unfortunately will and does happen at every company. Some one else on here just posted a message that it is OK for Lear CAFOs but not Challenger CAFOs. Personally I would like to see everyone turn down OT and CAFO assignments. The reality is that will not happen.

What special things are the 300 pilots asking for and getting? Please share because I will join you in that fight.

 

[notapilot]

So I will just spell my facts & suspicions out for you. Fact: there are dozens upon dozens of bombardier aircraft w/o lxj tags registered to the waterview address. Fact: the marriage between flex and BJS barely skirts the law it was intended to fulfill but both companies have successfully used it's legal neccessity to further muddy the waters in some very unscrupulous ways Suspicion: either flex or bjs is using it's resources to manage, staff, dispatch etc these planes under the radar Fact: there are 85 flex guys on the street on part because of these games

I am interested in what you are saying, but it makes no sense to me. You said you would spell things out, but your message is very vague. What laws are LXJ and BJS skirting? What are you saying goes on under the radar? How does the LXJ and BJS relationship relate to the 85 on the street? If it wasn't for our BJS card holders there would be more than double that number on the street. Please explain.

 

[FalconPilot69]

I am in the same position as all of us. I fly the line and hear every day how 300 and 604 pilots are consistently taking and asking for OT. Some are even so brazen as to be telling anyone who will listen that they are doing so. This is not only a CA thing but an FO thing.

As far as the CAFO bs, I am with you. This is nothing more than a means of the company using its pilots so that they can keep them downgraded indefinitely. While I cannot dispute whether the lear group are being OT tramps, I can say that if they are, they are surely being real quiet about it. Any lear guy/gal I have spoke with regarding OT was due to it either being forced or working in their benefit, i.e home on the first flight in the morning and getting the money out of the company. I understand that there are times where we need to do OT, but for guys/gals to be calling into the office and begging for it, that is another issue. Just ask your dispatcher if it is happening. I am sure they will tell you.

As far as the 300 group having more pull, just look at all of the changes. If you go back over BB, our rest rule changes and so forth have come due to 300 captains turning off their phones religiously as well as griping louder than the rest of the groups. Maybe it is just coincidental that this is happening, but I don't know that is the case.

I don't like seeing our group fighting either. My comment was just pure honesty. None of the pilots as a group care about the 85 on the street or about you or I. We will just continue to go down this road and hope in the end we are still employed.

Please provide more information about your accusations. What postion are you in that you know how much OT is being asked for from 2 different fleets and seats? I don't dispute people are asking for OT. I am sick of our own group attacking each other. We are all on the same team and I guarantee you that an equal number of people are asking for OT from every fleet and seat. I have seen FOs on the bottom of the seniority list ask for OT. This unfortunately will and does happen at every company. Some one else on here just posted a message that it is OK for Lear CAFOs but not Challenger CAFOs. Personally I would like to see everyone turn down OT and CAFO assignments. The reality is that will not happen.

What special things are the 300 pilots asking for and getting? Please share because I will join you in that fight.

 

[netjetwife]

It appears that FW is posting on a need to know basis. Her target audience knows enough about the situation to understand the gist of her post and can always pm her for additional info. The rest of us don't need to know the details.

I just note that she is reaching out to others in her group in an attempt to share/gather information and I support her efforts. I would think that any who value camaraderie and unity in their group would as well. From my understanding of their situation, the Flex pilotgroup doesn't have their own message board or active liaisons that keep them fully informed on company matters. (Flex folks please correct this if I'm wrong). So if their posts sometimes sound as though they're talking in code ... well that makes perfect sense even if others don't know what the heck they're saying....

 

[notapilot]

It appears that FW is posting on a need to know basis. Her target audience knows enough about the situation to understand the gist of her post and can always pm her for additional info. The rest of us don't need to know the details.

I just note that she is reaching out to others in her group in an attempt to share/gather information and I support her efforts. I would think that any who value camaraderie and unity in their group would as well. From my understanding of their situation, the Flex pilotgroup doesn't have their own message board or active liaisons that keep them fully informed on company matters. (Flex folks please correct this if I'm wrong). So if their posts sometimes sound as though they're talking in code ... well that makes perfect sense even if others don't know what the heck they're saying....

First of all you have no idea what she is talking about either so don't speak for her. Believe me when I say that I am in "the know" more than she is and what she appears to say is not true. Your belief is that since we do not have a private crew only website we should accept coded vague language from a non employee about our company. Sounds about right from you. By the way, how's it going with your union fellows who have been locked out of their message board? PDA.

 

[notapilot]

Falcon

I also would like to see OT and CAFO stopped from whichever group is involved.

 

[DirtyBeech]

All I know is that half a dozen or so captains have recently unemployed themselves.

 

[Boxer]

All I know is that half a dozen or so captains have recently unemployed themselves.

Say what?

 

[flex*wife]

Notaapilot,

This is gonna be long I apologize in advance but I truly want to answer your questions and spark thoughtful debate.

Netjetwife is correct: I am purposefully trying to be vague because I am not trying to get people to talk out of school or air a bunch of dirty laundry all over the internet. I am also trying to be respectful of the sources of information I have been given lest I be guilt-ridden with having few innocent people caught in the cross hairs of an ugly situation.

Fact is plain and simple that as a group, Flex pilots need to protect scope, lock in work rules and provide the group with a fair and equitable resolution system for dealing with disciplinary and other matters. In my mind the past year with furloughs, CAFOs, some interesting changes in the manuals and other miscellaneous matters I would think this would be obvious to the simplest of you.

You asked me to be specific so I will try to better explain my concerns regarding the BJS LXJ situation. I consider myself pretty well read on the TAG situation but as a non pilot I am the first to admit I don’t necessarily understand the way daily operations may or may not play into this. But how can you say with a straight face that BJS is a completely separate entity from the foreign owned entity of LXJ? There may be separate floors and door locks, but it is definitely a combined enterprise at the same convenient address.. Everything from human resource & administrative issues, to scheduling, long range planning, owner & in flight services, ground ops, dispatch, maintenance decisions and issues, hiring decisions (well maybe not lately), firing decisions, training etc it’s pretty clear there are some gray lines. Up until a little while ago your paychecks even came from BJS for jake’s sake. And if I’m not mistaken I’ve been told some of the language that’s been added to the manuals over the past year give the implication that BJS has more and more control over “in flight” issues because they have more flexibility in the way things get handled from a regulation perspective. But that’s way out of my league as I barely understand V1 rotate.

Dirty Beech speaks of a few captains who have helped themselves out of a job recently. Rumor has it at least half of them were 135 issues that these guys were told plain and simple would have been a different story if they were 91 trips. And what about that guy who is now out a license let alone a job because he misunderstood the ability for ASAP to protect him on a 135 trip.

And why does no one want to investigate the dozens upon dozens of bombardier aircraft registered to Waterview, including a sweet fair share of globals. Now I’m not sure if that’s BJS or LXJ but no one finds that curious? Unless I am mistaken I thought the business scope of both parties limited them to operations and fractional sales not “brokership” or management so what gives? We all know there are a few planes (Houston, STL and TN might be some) that are being quietly managed on the side using LXJ resources but not LXJ pilots. And yet we have 85 on the street. That’s the connection my friend. My suspicion is that LXJ, Bombardier or BJS (let’s face it you are really an employee of all three) resources are used to generate business income but not protect pilot jobs. Might be legal, might be good business etc… but if true it’s kinda slimy.

Also why does the list of available typed pilots both bombardier and the training center give out to private whole owners in need of temporary services not include the 85 at the top of it’s lists? A good friend of my husband’s (not one of the 85) is on the list and makes a decent living doing only Bombardier and CAE Simuflite referrals and my understanding he’s one of many.

This get long winded and I’d be happy to expound on more if you need me to, but isn’t this enough yet? I am only looking out for my family. If you can prove to me I have no reason to worry I will be grateful to you believe me. I WANT to be wrong.

We are quite happy with my husband’s pay, bonus, vacation etc… and absolutely do not feel a need for overtime to supplement the income. This IS NOT about money. Pushing for a union is the only way I see of forcing the company to uphold certain implied contractual obligations that are worthless right now as you are all at will employees. I actually think for the most part most of the higher ups are decent guys but make no mistake they will protect themselves long before they will protect you. You need to fix that.

 

[netjetwife]

First of all you have no idea what she is talking about either so don't speak for her. I wasn't. I was just commenting on her posting style and my "code" remark was suggesting that those of us outside her circle don't need the details. Believe me when I say that I am in "the know" more than she is and what she appears to say is not true. I don't know the situation so I'm not in a position to judge credibility on the subject. That's for the Flex pilots to decide as they're the ones she addressed. Your belief is that since we do not have a private crew only website we should accept coded vague language from a non employee about our company. FW has the right to post here and was discussing, with others, a topic that interests them/her. They were following the rules and doing just fine understanding each other. Sounds about right from you. Yes I do support the right of members of a community to hold online conversations and build camaraderie. By the way, how's it going with your union fellows who have been locked out of their message board? PDA.

Thanks for asking. The NJASAP furloughed pilots who now have their own section of the board continue to receive Union communications, including the weekly emailed newsletter. They report that never have they seen a Union be so responsive to a furlough even establishing a special committee dedicated to helping furloughed pilots. They are very appreciative that their fellow pilots participated in voluntary measures that kept them employed about an extra year. NJASAP refunded their dues and the pilot-group made generou$ donations that provided a nice Christmas and/or emergency funding for furloughed families. (That was very impressive! Kudos to all involved!) With NJASAP coordination the pilot-group has also given assistance (money, hotel points/miles, Atlantic bucks, etc) to individual furloughed pilots/families as the need arose.

 

[netjetwife]

.... but isn’t this enough yet? ... Pushing for a union is the only way I see of forcing the company to uphold certain implied contractual obligations that are worthless right now as you are all at will employees. I actually think for the most part most of the higher ups are decent guys but make no mistake they will protect themselves long before they will protect you. You need to fix that.

FW, I thought there were enough reasons for your group to organize even before I realized how convoluted/confusing things are at Flex...now... You're absolutely right. The reality is no one will consider the needs and interests of the pilot-group more than the pilots themselves. Good Luck! Seriously. Lacking the protections afforded by a contract, the Flex pilots and their families are leaving an awful lot to chance....
Regards,
NJW

 

[notapilot]

Fact is plain and simple that as a group, Flex pilots need to protect scope, lock in work rules and provide the group with a fair and equitable resolution system for dealing with disciplinary and other matters. In my mind the past year with furloughs, CAFOs.
I agree with you on these points.
Up until a little while ago your paychecks even came from BJS for jake’s sake.
I have never received a check from BJS.
And if I’m not mistaken I’ve been told some of the language that’s been added to the manuals over the past year give the implication that BJS has more and more control over “in flight” issues because they have more flexibility in the way things get handled from a regulation perspective. But that’s way out of my league as I barely understand V1 rotate.
I guess that's way out of my league as well because I have no idea what you are referring to.
Dirty Beech speaks of a few captains who have helped themselves out of a job recently. Rumor has it at least half of them were 135 issues that these guys were told plain and simple would have been a different story if they were 91 trips. And what about that guy who is now out a license let alone a job because he misunderstood the ability for ASAP to protect him on a 135 trip.
As an agent if a pilot breaks a part 135 regualtion on a part 135 trip they will be held accountable according to the part they are operating under. Same as at Netjets or anywhere else for that matter. As for the pilot that lost his license I have no idea what you are talking about and what does his lack of understanding ASAP have to do with any of this?
And why does no one want to investigate the dozens upon dozens of bombardier aircraft registered to Waterview, including a sweet fair share of globals. Now I’m not sure if that’s BJS or LXJ but no one finds that curious? Unless I am mistaken I thought the business scope of both parties limited them to operations and fractional sales not “brokership” or management so what gives? We all know there are a few planes (Houston, STL and TN might be some) that are being quietly managed on the side using LXJ resources but not LXJ pilots. And yet we have 85 on the street. That’s the connection my friend. My suspicion is that LXJ, Bombardier or BJS (let’s face it you are really an employee of all three) resources are used to generate business income but not protect pilot jobs. Might be legal, might be good business etc… but if true it’s kinda slimy.
This conspiracy theory is a little crazy. No one finds it curious because it only exists in your mind. If I understand this correctly you believe that there are 20+ LXJ planes being operated outside of Flexjet. They must be controlling all of this from the secret bunker under the Waterview. Also no one is keeping our whole owned aircraft operations quiet. In fact, we advertise it. LXJ pilots are operating those planes. I will explain who your husband works for, he is an employee of Flexjet which is a subsidiary of Bombardier. He acts as an agent for Jet Solutions, LLC.
Also why does the list of available typed pilots both bombardier and the training center give out to private whole owners in need of temporary services not include the 85 at the top of it’s lists? A good friend of my husband’s (not one of the 85) is on the list and makes a decent living doing only Bombardier and CAE Simuflite referrals and my understanding he’s one of many.
I do know a few of the 85 that do do these trips. How they crew those trips I do not know. It would be great if it would work as you describe.
This get long winded and I’d be happy to expound on more if you need me to, but isn’t this enough yet? I am only looking out for my family. If you can prove to me I have no reason to worry I will be grateful to you believe me. I WANT to be wrong.
I think you might have said enough and I would suggest you probably not say more for your sake. Your allegations are false, both companys meet the requirements of the law and have been closely scrutinized by independent auditors and the FAA. I wouldn't be as concerned about the relationship, but more concerned about the libel claims you make. If I was a lawyer for Jet Solutions or Bombardier I would pursue this libelous matter directly with you as you make some very serious accusations.

Good luck. I think that we are on the same page about where we need to be, but we do not agree on how to get there.

 

[notapilot]

FW, I thought there were enough reasons for your group to organize even before I realized how convoluted/confusing things are at Flex...now... You're absolutely right.
Maybe I am just a genius, but it really isn't confusing. What am I missing here?
The reality is no one will consider the needs and interests of the pilot-group more than the pilots themselves.
Finally you said something that makes sense. Congratulations!

Now back to your hole. : )