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Flex Jet read file
- Thread starter Ludicrous Speed
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Oddly enough, the schedule we don't want and will wind up with, is the one you have in writing.
TWA 2 ASA FO
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There already is more solidarity here. We have kept your union off our property every time someone tries to have it show up and ruin a great company.
Flexjet is not perfect, but 1108 has a pretty solid track record of making things worse, not better. If 1108 is so great, why did NJ dump you.
For my fellow Flexjet crews, please don't let a few angry pilots at FO convince you to be afraid of KR. Imagine if a few of the VERY outspoken pilots we have on Yammer were to come on here and sell their view of life at FJ. How accurate do you think their slanted and always negative/pessimistic views would be.
This is what you are getting from these FO union stompers. Next time you are on the road, talk to a few FO crews. Ask them what they think of KR.
So far 90+% of the crews I have talked to say life was great under his team. Things only got worse after he left. If you run into a FO pilot that is spewing all kinds of hatred ask him if he is in the union or not. They won't tell you this, but they have quite a few people that are not part of 1108.
So far I have only had one crew that couldn't wait to tell me how bad it was/is. We barely got the door open and they met us at the plane. 20 minutes into their tirade I had to walk away. Everything they said that was bad was really just a part of their union negotiated contract that sucked.
Remember, we singed a contract when the purchase went through. It guaranteed a lot of things. Most of them were things we already had. Some people are saying this s only valid for 1 year. I read mine again yesterday several times. No where does it say it is only valid for 1 year. In fact there are several sections that we have to vote on as a group before it can be changed.
Sounds like we got the best of both worlds. A say in our working conditions without having to put up with a union. Sounds like a win/win.
Fresh Air
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Good to see some new people expressing their opinions here.
As you are watching the webcast today, bear in mind that behind those gleaming white teeth is 25 feet of shark.
Kenn's not the Satan that MS was, but he's a shrewd businessman, and since his return he has been quite successful in squeezing every penny out of the Options pilot group. Except for the unlimited meal plan of course. Doesn't actually make up for the $2000 per month salary deficit and missing 401K match though.
As you are watching the webcast today, bear in mind that behind those gleaming white teeth is 25 feet of shark.
Kenn's not the Satan that MS was, but he's a shrewd businessman, and since his return he has been quite successful in squeezing every penny out of the Options pilot group. Except for the unlimited meal plan of course. Doesn't actually make up for the $2000 per month salary deficit and missing 401K match though.
That meal plan made him money. He gave the meal and yanked the 401k match long before flops had a contract. He couldn't do that today. Try eating the same dollar worth of food that you made on that 401k match. You would look like a couple of the in house union pushers that are trying to do it.. The 401k match paid for that meal plan with plenty cash left over to put gas in riccis gulfstream. Wait til you start being told how to fuel the plane and fly it at long range cruise all the time.. Wait till you start with your in plane check rides and having to spend a week or more with a KR ass kissing check airman that wants to show you who's the boss. The fun stuff hasn't even began yet.
hammer2
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But that's the compensation you voted for. Why do you blame him? I would be more inclined to blame those who negotiated on your behalf, and give KR his kudos for making them look like amateurs.
DirtyBeech
The Last Starfighter
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That "agreement" that was signed is worth about as much a sheet of single ply, Russia toilet paper. Question after question was asked for clarification on numerous points, and the best answer that the head shed could come up with is " Well, the intent was....". It's sad to see that some kool aid drinkers are going to be blind sided despite the ample warnings given to us.
As for the Flops crews we encounter on the road. The worst I have heard about the union is "necessary evil" and not a single one of them trusts Ricci or their management team.
As for the Flops crews we encounter on the road. The worst I have heard about the union is "necessary evil" and not a single one of them trusts Ricci or their management team.
Fresh Air
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Not blaming Kenn. He had every advantage over our union negotiators, and used it to full advantage like the shrewd businessman that he is.
My point is to offer a rebuttal to those who have posted that Kenn is a generous leader and everything will be puppies & rainbows at Floptions (the combo of Flex and Options) if only we do away with all of our protections and trust him to care for our every need.
If Kenn were truly on the side of the pilots he would have instructed his negotiators to agree to a fair wage and a reinstatement of our 401K match in our CBA, which the union negotiating team was trying very very hard to achieve.
Instead the company negotiators took the hard line and refused to budge on anything meaningful. With the economy in its worst state since the 1930s, and the NLRB mediator having told the union that a strike would not be allowed, the company had us over a barrel and they knew it. While Kenn was only slightly involved in the actual negotiations, he certainly knew of and approved what was going on.
We voted to approve the CBA because under the circumstances it was the best we could get, and better than nothing in the view of the majority of our pilot group.
Yes, but you forget the "state of the world" at the time we signed and the company was teetering on closing its doors. I for one don't like the contract, but I happily voted yes for it. My yes vote was defined by, you have to start somewhere, and Ill give the company 5 years to figure things out.
This next contract I will be voting no for anything less than industry standard. And if its a 5yr contract it better be great.
And we didn't vote no 401k match either, that was handed to us by Ricci.
Oh my god are you in for a rude awakening. Go ahead a vote away work rules and protections and I'm gonna be the first one to say bite me when a Flex pilot starts whining about how bad it's gotten over the last couple years since Kenn took over. Wow and guess what we now don't have a contract in place to work with, renogiate or anything else for that matter. Yeah your right. Kenn is going to take care of everyone and not make any changes to schedules, duty day work rules , pay if we dump the contract. I've just worked for him. Have you?
Ludicrous Speed
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TWA 2 ASA FO – Prior to Flex, you flew the Mad Dog at TWA, then the RJ at ASA?? If so, Icahn & American gave you a raw deal.
Been called a lot of names, but never a “union stomper”. I can live with it. BTW – union stomper abbreviated is… “us”… (Jus’ sayin’…)
“We have kept your union off our property every time someone tries to have it show up and ruin a great company.”
Like it or not, the Flexjet you’re talking about is gone. Since Uncle/DAC jumped into the sandbox, the Flexjet you speak of is no longer. Because it wasn’t just the leadership that changed, it was the ownership of the company.
“Flexjet is not perfect, but 1108 has a pretty solid track record of making things worse, not better.”
Ambiguities & perceptions & hearsay aside, can you give us a specific example?
Regarding the “contract” you signed “when the purchase went through” -
What happens if one of the parties elects to change those rules or elects not to operate under what was written? How are the differences reconciled? Who acts on your behalf? Do you have a say on who acts on your behalf? Is the agreement enforceable by law? Did you negotiate any of the terms? Did you have any say in what was presented to you? Or was it: “Here. Sign this.” The IBT1108 contract has 30 sections & is nearly 300 pages long. How detailed is yours? Was your signature an agreement to abide by the terms or simply recognition that you’d read & received a copy of the “contract”? Did anyone from company sign it?
Now, what’s that thingy you signed again?
Been called a lot of names, but never a “union stomper”. I can live with it. BTW – union stomper abbreviated is… “us”… (Jus’ sayin’…)
“We have kept your union off our property every time someone tries to have it show up and ruin a great company.”
Like it or not, the Flexjet you’re talking about is gone. Since Uncle/DAC jumped into the sandbox, the Flexjet you speak of is no longer. Because it wasn’t just the leadership that changed, it was the ownership of the company.
“Flexjet is not perfect, but 1108 has a pretty solid track record of making things worse, not better.”
Ambiguities & perceptions & hearsay aside, can you give us a specific example?
Regarding the “contract” you signed “when the purchase went through” -
What happens if one of the parties elects to change those rules or elects not to operate under what was written? How are the differences reconciled? Who acts on your behalf? Do you have a say on who acts on your behalf? Is the agreement enforceable by law? Did you negotiate any of the terms? Did you have any say in what was presented to you? Or was it: “Here. Sign this.” The IBT1108 contract has 30 sections & is nearly 300 pages long. How detailed is yours? Was your signature an agreement to abide by the terms or simply recognition that you’d read & received a copy of the “contract”? Did anyone from company sign it?
Now, what’s that thingy you signed again?
johnsonrod
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OHGOON
No KoolAid please...
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HAH!!
Troll alert!!
Are you sure you're not lying about the MD80 at TW?? Why are you not back as a recall at AA by now? There are still folks out who now reside at FedEX, etc, but Flex...no way, or did you get fired from TW because of criminal stupidity??
Judging from your post it must be the latter.
If you think whatever you signed is a contract then you must be the one and only investor in the Brooklyn Bridge.
You are lost man and don't even know it.
Troll alert!!
Propilot77
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Really???? That contract is not worth the paper it is written on! If they violate it are you going to sue them in court? Or better yet class action lawsuit? Who is going to pay for that? They know this but you keep living the dream of "Flexjet always took care of me and they will in the future" I'll say it again this isn't Bombardier anymore. Now I will agree that Bombardier treated us very fairly and that's why the union never made it and that's fine, but this is a whole new animal!
In the animal kingdom the rule is,eat or be eaten;in the human kingdom, define or be defined you chose!
There are some folks here that constantly armchair quarterback our first contract. It is worth a helleva lot more than toilet paper which you will need plenty of after ricci has his way with you guys. I am tired of people saying well you guys agreed those pay scales so its our fault, not uncles. What you don't hear about is Ricci threatening to shut the whole operation down and start an alter ego operation if we don't accept his ********************ty terms. Were the mistakes made on our part? Hell yes there were, its time to get over it and focus on the future. Phil, we have all lost money. Quit pissin and moaning about it. Live within your means. You are destroying our unity. 2015 when the contract is up we better be looking at netjets payscale or higher. If that is not attainable, shut the whole operation down and let uncle go try his hand at a new operation. And then how long will it be there before those pilots become disgruntled from all the abuse. Those are the only two options I see for floptions
I see most of the Flexjet pilots here discussing or arguing from the position that Flexjet is still the same company as before. Being a Flexjet pilot I am coming to the realization that the old Flexjet doesn't exist anymore and the old Flight Options doesn't exist anymore. Terms like "our planes" or "our owners" or "our flying" doesn't mean the same thing. It is "One Sky" (for lack of a better term now) flying, owners and planes now. How ever we come together as a pilot group, we will be a single group eventually. There will only be One Sky pilots, management, HR, etc ..... The Flexjet and Flight options brands will still exist, but that is all they will be, a brand. One group of pilots, management, sales force, etc. will be behind those names, and that is all they will be is names. The Flexjet and Flight Options culture we have had in the past will slowly go away and become some combination of the two or something new entirely. Who knows what that will be.
Propilot77
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Well bravo Japhy your at least one that is starting to understand. Your assessment is correct. That's why he wants single carrier YESTERDAY!!!!!! Put us all under one roof and still have everyone think the product is specific to the brand. In Vegas they call this a magic show with smoke and mirrors!
C
chaching
that all makes perfect sense and its why the Global's will be marked under Flexjet as its now the premium brand of DAC...
the reason I see for combining pilot groups? How about using Flexjet to get rid of the 1108?
the top 30% at Flex makes on avg about $145k......so what happens when these guys vote in favor of the 1108? Do you 1108 guys actually think the Flex guys are gonna vote union if there is the slightest inclination that their pay will be reduced in any way? Also, a lot of those same Flex guys are over 55 and in their last 5-7 yrs of flying. They are not gonna want to give up a dime today for long term contract benefits that they will never see....
Praetorian
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These types of employment contracts are a form of what's called union nullification. The idea behind them is the employer goes to the employ group and says, "Hey you don't need a union, I'll give you a contract." It's a standard union avoidance tactic and it's used all the time, because lot of people are gullible enough to buy into it's false promises.
I find it interesting that you refer to things you, "already had". But let's be real, you've really never "had" anything. Because you work at-will everything you think you have can be taken away with an email to the pilot group. Case in point from your "Employee Agreement:
(a) Seniority: During the Employment Period, You will serve as an active Crewmember of the Company, with the same level of seniority as you had immediately prior the effective date of this agreement. For reference, see the attached addendum entitled ?Crew Seniority List 2013?, if another crewmember does not sign a Crewmember Employment Agreement their seniority will not be protected which may positively impact your seniority. You will have the normal duties, responsibilities and authority of the flight crews, subject to the Company right to expand or limit such duties, responsibilities and authority and to override you actions.
So first your seniority number and by inference you continued employment was threatened if you failed to sign this so-called "agreement". In the second sentence, the companies, "right to expand or limit such duties", is explained.
This "agreement" you were forced to sign is a sham. It's riddled with loopholes that favor the company, says explicitly that you remain at-will, and gives the company the right to change most of it at their discretion. Beyond that, as with any contract, without any real mechanism for enforcement it isn't worth the paper it's written on.
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Praetorian
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A lot of misdirection here in your first post. The truth is the Flex guys would benefit from the existing CBA the day they voted in the 1108. They would no longer be at-will and subject to termination for being "disloyal", as it says in their new "agreement". Talk about intentionally vague. No union would ever agree to language like that.
As to pay. I hear KR has been overhead saying, "those Flex guys are paid too much." I wonder how long that pay will last if the threat of a union is removed?
Frac Cap
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slowtation capt
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Here is what I do not get, from what I have been reading.
Flex pilots were forced to sign an "agreement", "contract" whatever they are calling with DAC and Uncle Kenny.
This piece of paper is full of threats of your job, your seniority, even just having to sign the paper.
And yet you guys still want to hold onto to this belief of "FlexJet has always treated us correctly"
Don't you get it, FlexJet is not FlexJet anymore. It's FlexOptions with Kenn forcing you to sign a piece of paper that is full of threats.
Flex pilots were forced to sign an "agreement", "contract" whatever they are calling with DAC and Uncle Kenny.
This piece of paper is full of threats of your job, your seniority, even just having to sign the paper.
And yet you guys still want to hold onto to this belief of "FlexJet has always treated us correctly"
Don't you get it, FlexJet is not FlexJet anymore. It's FlexOptions with Kenn forcing you to sign a piece of paper that is full of threats.
squawk
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You heard that he was overheard? Really?
Flexjet Rates are below NJ/industry
Flexjet rates are a tad below NBAA avg
Flexjet is profitable with current rates
Flexjet has had frozen rates for 6 years (no COLA)
Flexjet owners pay for premium service
Flexjet pilots are consistently praised by owners
doh
Jump seat shrink
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One post? One...your credibility is one less than one. One post...are you jenny lee's fractional alter ego? Or some other FI tool? Go away.
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