Flex Jet read file

[CL300Pilot]

But...I thought we where two different companies? Please tell me you guys can see how KR is playing this game....please. The Flex guys where doing their jobs as the pro's they are. With out a CBA or stewards to fall back on for support the only thing to do is fly your trips....you have no protection. I know that no FLOPS pilots hold any ill will toward you guys.

GoozseHZ,

We see it. We see what is happening. We are definitely not blind. We are also watching to see what is happening. The big issue you guys face, IMO, is that when I/we talk to FLOPS pilots on the road, there are two camps. The union and non-union guys. The ones I have talked to, the non-union guys are happy and a majority of the union guys are really bitter. Now, again IMO, why would I want to join a union and be bitter? I fully understand the whole idea of true representation and having everything black and white, but when this job is no longer fun to be at, I don't want to be here.

On the second part of "no FLOPS pilots hold any ill will toward you guys," I beg to differ. There is plenty on this board where we are being blamed for this as well as the possibility of us causing a potential ouster of the 1108. What those that do blame us seem to not realize is that we, Flexjet, did not ask for this. Also, and this is not meant as an attack or call out, but when we see things posted like that from Shanes, it really makes us wonder. You guys may all be right in that we may lose a bunch, but then again, why would KR jack with us? Why would he want to do things that would force us to join a union when he hates them so much?

Personally, I want this thing to succeed for ALL of us. I can see where this can actually be a win/win for both of our companies. I hope that when/if we do get merged, we all come out of if with better pay, benefits and we are ALL employed and make this on of the best mergers in history. Sound cheesy? Sure, but it is truly what I am hoping for and I hope we are all on the same page.

 

[BlueNose]

Are you serious, really?

I think you may have missed my point. And if you could reference that section in the contract that limits sell-off, I'd gladly retract my argument.

 

[Rubber Ducky]

I think you are missing several points. First, the pilots are the union. Like it or not, you are going to be one pilot group so you better all get on one sheet of music fast. Whether you are union or non union, some group is going to represent everyone's interests in bargaining. Do you want that group to be organized and equipped to counter attack or do you want that group to be led by attacker? That's the only question you really need to answer and depends on if you are even being attacked. A decision is also in managements hands to either lead or push . The overhanging issue is that you are always one transaction away from a different management team, so choose wisely. I personally would not leave myself vulnerable to future threats even though I do believe this transaction is good for both pilot groups and the industry. But... What if Signature were to buy DAC? Now who's your daddy?

 

[albatros101]

I have worked at a company that had a union and now work at Flex. I payed my dues every month and in 6 years of working we got a new contract just to roll it back. I got sick of the union cool aid, the union is a money making enterprise that use scare and blackmail tactics. When I had complaints about the company they were quick to say they will do something and then nothing happen. I was able to get more done on my own almost $10K in dues and I have nothing to show for it!

 

[Rubber Ducky]

I have experienced similar frustrations but consider the alternative... Accept a free conference room for a few pilot volunteers to negotiate your contract while the company provides lunch vs. an organization backed with your cash to act on your behalf. The system is far from perfect. That's worth repeating. The system is far from perfect.

By the way, if you've paid 10k in dues, you've earned and kept more money than most in this industry. Congratulations.

 

[GooseHZ]

CL

Shane dose not work at FLOPS anymore.
Bitter and unhappy.....no I would say concerned and informed on current situations. You make some great points in your post. I to hope that it works out and we all come together as one voice for the pilots to help KR achieve his dream of a safe and professional, profitable(for all) organization.

 

[CL300Pilot]

CL

Shane dose not work at FLOPS anymore.
Bitter and unhappy.....no I would say concerned and informed on current situations. You make some great points in your post. I to hope that it works out and we all come together as one voice for the pilots to help KR achieve his dream of a safe and professional, profitable(for all) organization.

Agreed. :beer:

 

[Ludicrous Speed]

Bluenose: “You might think that, but it seems 1108 neglected that small point in negotiating the last contract.” & “How about (c) the leaders should have thought of that basic point and negotiated it.”

In 2009/10, did you point this out to the negotiators?

 

[993_Pilot]

Flex Pilots, please understand that the vast majority of the the Options pilots hold no ill will towards any of you, nor do we hold any of you responsible for DAC's actions. Yes, we have a few "village idiots", both past and present, but talk to us out on the road, and you will see that most of us are reasonable, and we also want this to succeed for all. Hopefully, by now, you can all see how KR is attempting to play the pilot groups against one another. While Flex may be receiving the better deal right now, you can bet that this is largely due to the fact that he doesn't want to upset you, and is hoping that you will eventually vote to get rid of the union. If there is no threat of a union, that will all quickly change. While the union is not perfect, it is far better than working without a contract. The biggest thing that you need to be asking the Options pilots you see is "What was it like to work for KR before you had a contract". Then ask yourself if that sounds like a place you want to work.

 

[doh]

993_Pilot, I'm going by Wikipedia, so it may not be accurate, but they say Ricci left in 2003, IBT 1108 was certified in 2006, and Ricci came back in 2008. Is that correct? If so, then we are talking about what it was like to work for him from 1998-2003. So we need to hear from the senior folk about 1998-2003.

 

[jetwash]

993_Pilot, I'm going by Wikipedia, so it may not be accurate, but they say Ricci left in 2003, IBT 1108 was certified in 2006, and Ricci came back in 2008. Is that correct? If so, then we are talking about what it was like to work for him from 1998-2003. So we need to hear from the senior folk about 1998-2003.

My experience from 1999 included floating duty day, being questioned everytime you wrote up a problem with the aircraft, being intimidated if you even though of calling fatigued, being invited to come to CGF and chat about being a team player when it came to accepting aircraft with mx problems. ( the other pilots thought it was OK why are you causing a problem? )

Sure we are not paid an industry standard wage but, what I receive in knowing I can operate a safe aircraft according to the rules without being pushed or intimidated reduced the stress in my life which improved my overall health.

I am a much person now. Even with my low pay.

 

[BlueNose]

Bluenose: ?You might think that, but it seems 1108 neglected that small point in negotiating the last contract.? & ?How about (c) the leaders should have thought of that basic point and negotiated it.?

In 2009/10, did you point this out to the negotiators?

I'm sorry, you're right - it's my fault, because what was being negotiated at the table was all available to me in real time, and the union members were paying my salary so I could concentrate full-time on those issues instead of fly airplanes. Oh wait, that was the negotiating committee, not me.

 

[dime line]

Lets all not forget the Blacklist (that was proven to exist) of pilots from RTA to Ricci, and they were fired due to that list.

 

[Praetorian]

993_Pilot, I'm going by Wikipedia, so it may not be accurate, but they say Ricci left in 2003, IBT 1108 was certified in 2006, and Ricci came back in 2008. Is that correct? If so, then we are talking about what it was like to work for him from 1998-2003. So we need to hear from the senior folk about 1998-2003.

I think your dates are correct. But I also think it's worth pointing out that our most junior active pilot was hired in 2000. So every one of us is senior enough to have experienced it.

 

[993_Pilot]

993_Pilot, I'm going by Wikipedia, so it may not be accurate, but they say Ricci left in 2003, IBT 1108 was certified in 2006, and Ricci came back in 2008. Is that correct? If so, then we are talking about what it was like to work for him from 1998-2003. So we need to hear from the senior folk about 1998-2003.

The dates sound about right, and like Praetorian said, everyone still working at Options has lived through it.

One caveat: A few of our people still don't get that the pilots ARE the union. In my experience, the vast majority of people who bitch about the union are the same lazy bastards who don't understand how anything works because they won't bother to help out, and/or tend to think about everything from a selfish and myopic point of view. So if you happen to encounter one of the anti-union folk, ask them how they have volunteered to help the union or pilot group. Heck, ask them if they have done anything other than sit around and bitch. Then ask them why.

If you are good at politics, enjoy having a brown nose, and have a "ME, ME, ME" attitude, a union isn't for you. You see, a union isn't about getting the best deal for a particular individual, a union is about getting the best deal for the collective group.

 

[doh]

I'm sorry, you're right - it's my fault, because what was being negotiated at the table was all available to me in real time, and the union members were paying my salary so I could concentrate full-time on those issues instead of fly airplanes. Oh wait, that was the negotiating committee, not me.

I think you are (deliberately?) missing his point. Since the pilots are the union, you are welcome to suggest what needs to be negotiated. If they missed, or lacked the negotiating capital to include an item, you could have suggested it. No agreement is perfect, including the agreement management unilaterally implements.

 

[BlueNose]

I think you are (deliberately?) missing his point. Since the pilots are the union, you are welcome to suggest what needs to be negotiated. If they missed, or lacked the negotiating capital to include an item, you could have suggested it. No agreement is perfect, including the agreement management unilaterally implements.

I get his point, and yours, just don't agree. My point is simply that those entrusted with (and paid for) leadership positions should be accountable for their performance. What do you think the odds are that the same group of IBT negotiators will be at the table next time around? Seems accountability is as popular with 1108's leaders as it is with the company's.


And now the emphasis seems to be on pushing Flex pilots into unionizing to protect themselves when the lists merge. I don't believe the lists will ever be merged, because KR will keep the companies separate, building Flex and letting the Options pilot group continue to wither. What is 1108 doing to help their current members? When Options has 200 pilots and 45 planes left, and all the rest is flown by Flexjet pilots as 'brand partners,' maybe you'll see it. And this scope clause is what lets it happen. I only hope I'm wrong.

 

[DirtyBeech]

If you don't think the lists will be merged, and right soon for that matter, then you're not paying attention. They're not even bothering with the pretense of separate companies anymore.

 

[BlueNose]

If you don't think the lists will be merged, and right soon for that matter, then you're not paying attention. They're not even bothering with the pretense of separate companies anymore.

There are a number of barriers to merging the lists, the requirement to deal with a union that KR loathes not least among them. There are almost no barriers to effectively combining the operations by selling charter between them, while only keeping the pretense of separate companies. Using one of his other companies to cannibilize business (and cash flow) from Options is nothing new for him, even to the point of transferring a large part of the employment over - he's already done it to FO's maintenance dept with Constant Aviation.

That's the model I see playing out. DAC has investment partners in Options. Transferring a dollar from Options to a wholly-owned 'partner' is like taking 60 cents out of your left pocket (along w/ 40 c of your partners' money), and putting a buck in your right. And for Kenn, sticking it to the union is whipped cream and a cherry on top.

 

[doh]

I get his point, and yours, just don't agree. My point is simply that those entrusted with (and paid for) leadership positions should be accountable for their performance. What do you think the odds are that the same group of IBT negotiators will be at the table next time around? Seems accountability is as popular with 1108's leaders as it is with the company's.


And now the emphasis seems to be on pushing Flex pilots into unionizing to protect themselves when the lists merge. I don't believe the lists will ever be merged, because KR will keep the companies separate, building Flex and letting the Options pilot group continue to wither. What is 1108 doing to help their current members? When Options has 200 pilots and 45 planes left, and all the rest is flown by Flexjet pilots as 'brand partners,' maybe you'll see it. And this scope clause is what lets it happen. I only hope I'm wrong.

Kind of like those responsible for the financial crisis should be held accountable? Oh wait, no, those were management types. No need to hold them accountable. Just demand a higher standard from the guys who try and hold management accountable. If management Fs up, bail 'em out...