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Fired - Need Advice

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Also as an IOE instructor, maybe not just some bad visiual approaches, but maybe a very bad attitude, on your part or his (he could be an old grumpy guy that never made it to the majors, which will be me in a few years)
 
100LL... Again! said:
The screening and training process for military pilots is not comparable to the civilian world. Only the most capable make it, and ALTHOUGH they are low time, there is an unbelievable amount of ground training and prep that the typical light-plane CFI will not have. Plus, all time is highly structured to maximize learning. Light plane civilian pilot's training quality varies greatly.

Fligh time isn't everything, to be sure, but it really is silly that lots of people think that 1000 hours is all you need to fly a regional jet competently.

It is all SOME people need, and SOME need even less. But most of them would do well to get some real world IFR PIC in something that they can handle ALONE, rather than getting baby-sat at a regional.
Ok, good points.
 
Bankangle said:
Lets be real..the training is just a little bit different... However I am just basising my statement on my own experience. I have always thought of myself as a good pilot but when I had the kind of time he had, I think i wouldve been getting extra IOE too! I think its only after accumalating quite a few thousands of hours and a number of types, that you can look back and realize how little you knew back in the day.

always learning
True but my fiancee had 300 TT and 17 multi, got hired at a regional flying turboprops and did great. He is one of the best pilots I have flown with.
 
Diesel said:
As an IOE instructor for a long time in jets. The visual was the last thing wrong in a serious of events. There has to be more to the story. Remember the IOE instructor might have to explain to his boss why he failed you. Saying he failed you just because of a visual approach doesn't jive.

Sounds like there was more to it.

Diesel as always!!!...you're a doosh bag
 
cosmotheassman said:
Hey that would be one big paper bag Standby1. I'm sorry I just don't see any difference in visual approaches in a jet. the glide path is still 3 degrees isn't it? The only thing I could see would be a problem if they dumped you high and fast like they do in teterhole alot. Other than that, maybe he just screwed the one approach that meant it all?

There is a big difference in doing a visual approach in a jet vs. a prop.. A prop is WAY more forgiving than a jet is. When I was on the ERJ I remember pulling the power to Flight idle in cruise and waiting a full 2 seconds before the speed tape even started to move. A jet is way cleaner, way faster, and way harder to recover once you are out of position.

I was flying into Kapalua (3000' runway) on Maui a few days ago with a brand new FO (so they didn't recognize my predicament)...It's a new route so I was coming in from a different direction so all my landmarks for the visual weren't relevant. I wasn't paying attention and I ended up at 1500 AGL at 3 miles and 240 knots. Luckily, I'm not in an ERJ anymore, I'm in a turbo prop. I immediately recognized the situation and with some "aggresive configuring" I was able to get back on profile and stabilized by the required 500' AGL. If I was in a jet I wouldn't have slowed down until Honolulu. If I had 900 hours I would have been going around.

For you to say that it's the "same" can only mean one of two things...You have never flown a jet...or...you have never flown a prop.

Later
 
Many excellent aviators have busted out of military pilot training and went on to fulfilling the dream of having a career as a pilot. He obviously has some skill as a pilot or he would not have gotten as far as IOE the first time.

1. Decide if you want to stay in an industry where your career has more curves, bumps and dips than an old wooden rollercoaster.

2. Never lie about your problem, your hours or your qualifications; it will get into situation you may not be able to recover from.

3. Be persistent...continue to instruct...network with anyone who might be looking for a SIC guy...focus on getting to 135 PIC mins and getting a new job.

4. When you interview...try to turn that huge negative into a slight positive. What did you learn...how it expanded your knowledge of flying...how it gave you better SA or insight about high performance aircraft.

5. Don't give up.
 
I agree with all the other posters. OE Captains do not wash people out due to ONE bad approach. It's based on patterns, consistency, habits, techniques and application of company policy and procedures. Sorry it happened but it sounds like you've already been given a second chance with AmFlight. Study hard and good luck.
 
capt. megadeth said:
Dude, there are people with less time than this guy/gal that get into a bomber and friggin go to Iraq. Let's stop the low time dramatics.
Dude,
The military selection process is far harsher than TSA or any other regional, or major airline. I think the low time dramatics are being displayed for the civilian crowd. I kinda like the drama, keeps the 600/100 crowd thinking.
PBR
 
True but my fiancee had 300 TT and 17 multi, got hired at a regional flying turboprops and did great. He is one of the best pilots I have flown with

Maybe they should start giving commercial licenses at 30 hours, immediately after you SOLO. Then the airlines could hire people with 100hours and zero multi. I mean if your fiancee was soo damn good and he got on with 300 hours and just a ME titcket then why can't they hire guys with 100hours? An airplane is just an airplane, right?
 
May her boyfriend was already an employee of the airline and they had separate minimums for internal candidates. We're diverging from the original topic at hand; someone needed advice about being terminated but was not willing to share the entire story. According to someone in the training department, there's always more than being told.
 
Diesel said:
As an IOE instructor for a long time in jets. The visual was the last thing wrong in a serious of events. There has to be more to the story. Remember the IOE instructor might have to explain to his boss why he failed you. Saying he failed you just because of a visual approach doesn't jive.

Sounds like there was more to it.

Diesel,

Right you are. When I gave IOE, there was a MOUND of paperwork, filled out longhand, in triplicate, for any "unsat" training/checking event, including IOE (not that IOE is a checking event, but some places treat it that way). In addition to the paperwork, a chat with the director of training was also required. It was a PITA for everyone invovled.

To put everyone through this ringer, there better be a really good reason.

Nu
 
airlinepilot said:
TOAST no company will invest thousands of bucks into a new pilot and then let them go for a simple go-around................IOE is nothing more than cooperate and graduate

I was certain reading this arrogant and ignorant post that this was a military guy (the "cooperate and graduate") who certainly has no clue of Trans States. Disclaimer: Most of the military folks I've flown with are top notch stand up people. Unfortunately there's always the rotten apples. My roomate sim partner at my airline was a former trans states pilot and told me about the large percentage of washouts that place produces. It's a reflection of the training department.
 
PilotBTS1972 said:
I appreciate everyone's comments and assume that the interview boards I have met with since the bust had similar reactions. Going from a Seminole to a EMB-145 is challenging no matter how good a pilot you are, but what I said in my first post is the truth. Visuals were the primary reason for the extra time in IOE, but again, the extra time was not extraordinary. I agree that more time will help, but I'm not sure that doing stalls in a 172 and accumulating 500 more hours is going to make me any more qualified for a regional than I am now.

Where did you get your training, DCA? As to advice, I have had a number of friends in that situation and it took some time to put it behind them. Some went back to instructing for a while, others flew freight or corporate and after a while got calls again when there was a lot of demand.

You have to show that you overcame whatever it was, demonstrated by a current flying job and some time. You don't have much time and experience yet and gaining more will help. Flying an RJ with complete situational awareness at your experience level is difficult if not impossible.

Don't kid yourself, many FO's with your experience level leave the captain almost flying solo much of the time. This is the case at many regionals, even to a greater extent with pilots having even less time than you have.

Think about it, if you were a neutral interviewer and had a choice between hiring someone that had not been in your situation and you, why would you take the chance with so much money and your reputation riding on it.

Regardless, if you are determined to get into this currently unfortunate industry, don't give up. It is something to overcome, not the kiss of death. As they say, time heals all wounds and in this case more experience and a successful current flying job will eventually overcome this setback.

Good Luck!
 
The pattern lately at TSA fits right with your situation. Not only people busting initial, but upgrades busting for small situations as well. I have never busted a checkride and I have never been so nervouse during training as I have been at TSA.

In the last month several different newhire classes were scheduled and cancelled, as well as a couple of J41 upgrade classes that were cancelled within a week of the announcement.

It all sounds on par with the TSA way...As someone has said earlier..."have you ever busted a checkride, except at Trans States?"

At least you were able to get a job instructing again, that should tell you that it is possible to get hired again. Move on and be glad you are not sunk into such a wierd little company
 
When I did my IOE I had a sh1t senior pilot who wasnt there to teach just to make extra money. After being high a few times I started using the loc/glideslope on my visual approaches. DING DING DING problem solved. Not sure why, when you are new, myself included, a visual means looking outside only, pointing the nose at the runway and given it your best college try. Hopefully your IOE guy taught you to throw the ILS freq in there for all your visual approches. If no glideslope, using the fms, vasi, approach recommended altitudes etc... Just some advice that I was never given during IOE, that will make your job easier and safer the next time around.
Best of Luck
 
Last edited:
mullet said:
When I did my IOE I had a sh1t senior pilot who wasnt there to teach just to make extra money. After being high a few times I started using the loc/glideslope on my visual approaches. DING DING DING problem solved. Not sure why, when you are new, myself included, a visual means looking outside only, pointing the nose at the runway and given it your best college try. Hopefully your IOE guy taught you to throw the ILS freq in there for all your visual approches. If no glideslope, using the fms, vasi, approach recommended altitudes etc... Just some advice that I was never given during IOE, that will make your job easier and safer the next time around.
Best of Luck

Mullet,
Didn't I do you IOE :) ?
PSACPSP
 
No you didnt, it probably felt just like you were giving me IOE.
ps --I threw the receipt from my crew and I wonderful thanksgiving feed at The Country Buffet in STL, under your door. Rumor has it that our turkey dinner were on you guys this year. Thats what your sidekick out of TYS told me.
see ya
 
mullet said:
When I did my IOE I had a sh1t senior pilot who wasnt there to teach just to make extra money.

I think every outfit has at least one of these tools. As you said, they're there only there to make extra $$$ and mark the days, and not to pass on anything or perform any other kind of worthwhile service. Often they've been on the airplane for decades.

I wish these burnouts would either quit "teaching" or move on. They do a disservice to their programs and cause their students unnecessary hassle.

If your airline and/or pilot group (IE ALPA training commitee) provides for any kind of feedback, be sure to use it.

Nu
 

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