Final Agreement reached

[Lear70]

Lear 70

After 6 years of contract negotiations that went nowhere, were you one of the 98% that voted to strike? On one hand you tell us life was so great that you didn't want to go anywhere else like United, Northwest or Southwest but then you are so angry that you voted to shut the airline down. That's an interesting way of looking at your career to say the least. I am afraid Im throwing the BS flag.

So I take it you've never been through a strike?

A strike vote is a tool. It's not a vote to "shut the airline down". It's a tool to bring management to the table with a reasonable offer when they otherwise will not. Many, many, MANY carriers have had successful strike VOTES without ever having to go on strike. For anyone with a variety of airline experience (like the arbitrator panel), this argument just doesn't hold water.

And it's not that I didn't want to go to Southwest. I think it's a great company and am looking forward to it. I just didn't want to start over again once I got to where I could apply again. Quality of life decision, not a reflection on the desirability of a Southwest career whatsoever.

A few points to ponder:

( A relative of mine is an 8 year Airtran Captain.)

We were discussing yesterday his absolutely crappy schedules ( redeyes etc. ) even after 8 years and being in the top 1/3 of the seniority list.

Apparently, he will lose about 36% of his Seniority with the current proposal.

It dawned on me that SWA doesn't even DO redeyes, and that they have schedules that allow AM and PM bidding so you are not "all over the clock" so to speak, and as well can actually plan a commute. It seems that SWA has more flexibility in scheduling, bidding,trading, days off, etc.

SO...It seems to me, that.... even with a loss of relative Seniority, there is a very good possibility that his QOL will increase as far as schedules, commute, and lifestyle are concerned. (?)

Discuss.


YKMKR

An 8 year Captain is pretty junior, as our CA list goes. Maybe off reserve, maybe holding a buildup line. For them, the elimination of CDO's and redeyes is DEFINITELY a good thing in terms of quality of life.

The question is, will those go away? Certainly not for the next year or so; our schedules are already sold. Will they stay for the entire 3 year transition period? Will they go away when we transition to the SWA side of the ops? Nobody knows. They're being analyzed, according to what the Merger Committee tells us. If they can be made profitable, they might even stay PERMANENTLY. For ALL SWA pilots.

That said, I sure as hell hope not. I don't fly those. Ever. My body doesn't tolerate the back-and-forth on the back side of the clock. I think they're dangerous with the way our airline runs them, and years of fatigue study verifies that belief.

 

[Dan Roman]

Geez, WOULD YOU PLEASE BRING YOUR B-777 and B747-4 RATE UP TO OUR B-717 RATE, YOU'RE KILLING us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say's the guy working for the airline that most of it's existance paid way below industry standard wages, it's pilots worked more hours than most and they accepted a substandard retirement to build their airline. It was the airlines like Delta that raised the bar enough to give you guys something to shoot for. You undercut them and now they are on a down cycle because of it, but that doesn't mean they won't be getting gains in the future.
You guys are doing well in the LCC niche right now and good on you, but you look like an ass with statements like that.

 

[Lear70]

Ty,

Put the strike vote in context with his story. Not too many fedex or ups guys bailing to go elsewhere unless they can't handle night cargo. They are using muscle to improve already good contracts because they can. Big difference. If Airtran is in a parallel universe with Fedex, Northwest etc.then why do we have 200 or more former Airtran guys at SWA? How many former SWA guys do you have at Airtran?....None. Why? I regularly fly with several former Airtran guys so I have heard in detail what it is like. That's why I threw the BS flag. After further review the call still stands. Will this matter in arbitration?
Nope. If there are some pilots here that can't see the BS in Lears story, I can assure you an arbitrator sure as hell won't.

You have your opinion. Some of us don't agree with you. It is not your place to tell us how we should think. Just as WE won't tell YOU how you should think.

I don't do fear. I don't do aggression. I will debate calmly and rationally as long as other people do the same. Rational people can disagree with each other respectfully, no problems. But to attack someone personally saying that they're "lying" (as Wave has) or are talking "B.S." is simply going to put you in the same pile that Vixen and Bob Dylan are already in... my ignore list.

You may not understand how many of us think. That's fine. Nothing wrong with not being able to think the same as someone else. We're individuals, we're not always going to agree. We just don't attack each other personally over it. You "agree to disagree" and move on.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sacha:

Many, if not most, of the pilots who left here and went to SWA hadn't even finished their first year here; they had interviewed at both, and when SWA called them, they left training, or their reserve line, or their "build up" line, and went to SWA. They had little invested here, and so they had little to lose.

I've heard the true number is only about 65 pilots, by the way.

 

[Penguin46]

Airlines Risk Deeper Cuts Amid U.S. Wealth ‘Destruction’

"It's not a matter of if, it is a matter of how much." If true...hopefully the expanded SWA will be in a better anticipated position to capture market share; even as cumulative airline ridership decreases.

Shouldn't all pilots be fans of SWA with their pilot wages and culture?

The good news, a faltering economy will take the squeeze off of fuel prices.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...deeper-cuts-amid-u-s-wealth-destruction-.html

Cheers

 

[Sacha]

Lear,
Not agreeing with you or calling you out on your "spin" is not telling you how to think. Not even close. Nor is it calling you a liar.

Ty,
Whether they left after one week or ten years doesn't change the fact that they indeed left. People don't leave for something worse. Rarely for neutral. Only for a better life and you know it. Two of the three guys I regularly fly with were Captains at Air Tran. An anomaly? Who cares. The fact is they left and are (were) happy campers.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,
Whether they left after one week or ten years doesn't change the fact that they indeed left. People don't leave for something worse. Rarely for neutral. Only for a better life and you know it. Two of the three guys I regularly fly with were Captains at Air Tran. An anomaly? Who cares. The fact is they left and are (were) happy campers.

Sacha:

This stuff has been covered before. Plenty of pilots also left SWA when the majors were all hiring.

People leave for their own reasons, whether it is for faster upgrade, more desirable base, better pay, better working conditions, etc.

We are all looking forward to being a part of SWA, but to denigrate AirTran does not serve any good purpose.

 

[Sacha]

Not denigrating Airtran. Just trying to expose revisionism by some of your guys about how life was great at Airtran. And the sacrifice that they are all now making because of this acquisition. Hell a lot of guys sound more shocked and Po'd than I was the morning Frank Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp took over Eastern. I knew we were not getting pay raises and seat protection along with shiny new airplanes. What I did was get out my logbooks and update my resume. Good grief.

 

[waveflyer]

Three of the pilots I know at SWA came straight out of a J32 on their first interview. All of them are great people and utterly unremarkable.

"Worked harder" is a myth that makes people feel better when it takes them 5-10 years to get hired. It makes them feel special.

I'm not going to spew out my entire resume bc that misses the point. It's not about working "harder" or always being moreskilled- it's about making long term choices to get a better, higher paying job.
So here's my story- but it wouldn't be relevant if it weren't common. I had the chance to go to AT in 2004- and was also considering Amer West and ATA that year- on the advice of SWA, I stayed at my regional to pad my PIC time (I had 1350turbine121 PIC at the time) and get a check airman slot. I'd already had right seat time in larger jets at a legacy, so it's what I needed to do to be more qualified for SWA. Direct quote:"sitting in the right seat no matter how big the jet is always less valuable to us than being in command and taking on leadership roles" It also let me make $20k more the next year, which helped pay for the type.
Now I'm sure there are very well qualified, goodpilots who live locally and got the job they got- the point is that most swa pilots did not fly j32's for a year or two. In fact, a very large percentage of our pilots had to interview 2 or 3 times.
It's not a disrespect to you as a pilot and person today that SWA is a better, more competitive job to get than AT. If you can't agree with that, when all empiracle evidence points to it, then you have an ego problem. Not me.

Besides, what are you going to do? Tell me how you worked just as hard to get a lesser job that I turned down years earlier? What would that say about you?
(now that^^^was ego!- pilots will always have various amounts of good and bad timing making our way in this career- and we land where we land. That doesn't mean starting with a goal and achieving the better job is meaningless or inconsequential.)

 

[Lear70]

Lear,
Not agreeing with you or calling you out on your "spin" is not telling you how to think. Not even close. Nor is it calling you a liar.

That was in response to Wave telling me I was lying a couple days ago, although in all fairness he was probably simply insinuating the same thing you did that what I'm doing is providing "spin" when, in fact, I'm simply explaining my own thought process, which probably doesn't account for jack crap, at the end of the day, but it's still my own thoughts.

Like I've said before, the internet is a crappy way to communicate. Always has been. :beer:

 

[PapaWoody]

Like I've said before, the internet is a crappy way to communicate. Always has been. :beer:

Unless you're into porn, then the internet is an AWESOME way to communicate!!

PW

 

[dicko]

Dicko, I do not care where you sit, there are a hell of a lot more first officers to deal with at SWA that won't put up with your crap, if you actually get to fly with us.

"Put up with my crap" ..... Where did that come from ?

If it was displaced aggression than I'm good with it. I'm a proponent of it myself.

 

[ASADFW7]

Isn't this all about displaced aggression?

 

[dicko]

Isn't this all about displaced aggression?

Yes. Indeed it is.

 

[madjack]

Dicko, Ty, all AAI CPS,

You folks seem like good dudes and I will probably be flying with you if you move out west...as a 10 year FO I would trade places with you and gladly give up my seniority for a SWA CP seat, even if it means sitting on the bottom till 2020...an upgrade in hand is worth two in the bush...congrats even though you don't (but will) appreciate what you are getting...

 

[StopNTSing]

Say's the guy working for the airline that most of it's existance paid way below industry standard wages, it's pilots worked more hours than most and they accepted a substandard retirement to build their airline. It was the airlines like Delta that raised the bar enough to give you guys something to shoot for. You undercut them and now they are on a down cycle because of it, but that doesn't mean they won't be getting gains in the future.
You guys are doing well in the LCC niche right now and good on you, but you look like an ass with statements like that.

Lighten up, Dan. If you want to dwell in the past, it was also an airline called Delta that let the first CRJ go to Comair. You know the rest of that story. Point being it's ALL water under the bridge.

 

[dicko]

Dicko, Ty, all AAI CPS,

You folks seem like good dudes and I will probably be flying with you if you move out west...as a 10 year FO I would trade places with you and gladly give up my seniority for a SWA CP seat, even if it means sitting on the bottom till 2020...an upgrade in hand is worth two in the bush...congrats even though you don't (but will) appreciate what you are getting...

Despite my cynicism, your opinion does resonate. I get what you're saying.

Cheers,

D.

 

[Ty Webb]

Same here, MJ.

I think many of us would like to see a solution where our guys aren't superglued to the bottom, and where your senior FO's see some upgrades; unfortunately, that isn't the Agreement we are all holding our noses and looking at.

 

[waveflyer]

Speak for yourself there, chief. Back when I was a 727 Captain and we found out our company was going out of business, I had job offers at places that paid more (Netjets) but took a regional (PCL) by CHOICE because I wanted to build my 121 PIC time so I could make it to a Major carrier.

I got interview offers from both Northwest and a 2nd bite at United while I was at AirTran; I didn't go to either interview. I liked my job at AirTran, my quality of life, the people I flew with, I thought it would be "the next Southwest" as a fast up-and-coming operator with low costs, brand new jets, and I was having fun. Same reason I never re-updated my application at Southwest when the window re-opened and my 6 months had passed from my last interview.

After 3 years of making the same money flying Lears and Falcons that I would have as an AAI F/O but flying nights, weekends, getting 9 days off a monthand hardly seeing my family as a result, I have an even GREATER respect for my quality of life over money, which is the reason I bid max days off and weekends off in MCO, regardless of what line credit that gives me.

Sometimes people make choices based SOLELY on their quality of life. Despite how much more income they MIGHT make in the future. It's fine that you don't do that. I have.

Tell you what... I'll give you every DIME of my increased income from this deal and you give me relative seniority so that I can keep my quality of life and upgrade when my number would come up (about 6-7 more years instead of 12-15). How's that?

Here's one last thing for you to ponder. We offered SWA to not pay us SWA rates until we transitioned over the line in training and INSTEAD give ALL that money from now 'til then to the SWA pilots in exchange for even HALF of where we'd be with Date of Hire (a 4-5% decrease in the relative seniority hit we take). It was over $100 Million directly to your pilots. SWAPA said no. Do you know why? Because your Negotiating Committee wanted seniority over money.

Guess it's not all about the money.

That last part is interesting bc I've heard that suggested on the line quite often.

Look- I'm just seeing how your getting butt-hurt saying I'm calling you a liar.
Im not. That's too harsh a judgement. I do think you're lying to yourself though- and you proved it above. If QOL is paramount- why would you take the first available upgrade and not stay a senior FO.
The lie I'm talking about is that money doesn't matter and is inconsequential to all of our career moves- when I would say it's right at the top of what motivates us. Ive been in this industry for long enough and at enough places to know that money is the primary reason most people take that seniority hit and start over at the bottom of the captain list. It's a fact- we aren't building time anymore- at the majors, most of the reason we upgrade immediately and don't delay is bc of MONEY.
And QOL is exactly what we've been saying Lear! You don't live our schedules- I do. We do. I'm junior- my life is great. The pairing parity is very even. You don't work under the stresslessness of our mgmt- I do. Its a valuable thing to show up to work and get hugs and laugh all day- never fearing retribution -

How was your QOL when Air Tran fired you and you had to fight like hell to get your job back??

That's a bit below the belt, but Air Tran did that to you. Why? If AT is so great? I didn't do that, and SWA would never if you get on the list-

You're a good dude, and not a liar- but I do think you have convinced yourself of an untruth. Our contract should translate into seniority for us- it's quite literally the only thing your group brings to the table.

Good luck Lear- I do respect you and wish good things for you- I just know you'll be happier at swa than you ever were at AT and you minimizing it and calling it a sacrifice is silly in the eyes of those of us who have lived it.

 

[Music]

You don't work under the stresslessness of our mgmt- I do. Its a valuable thing to show up to work and get hugs and laugh all day- never fearing retribution

You know this has been stated time and time again, yet why are we having to decide on an agreement where continued employment or other undefined threats that may or may not have been made by GK and company are part of our decision process. Feels real similar to what we've been dealing with for 6 years.

 

[slaquer5]

You know this has been stated time and time again, yet why are we having to decide on an agreement where continued employment or other undefined threats that may or may not have been made by GK and company are part of our decision process. Feels real similar to what we've been dealing with for 6 years.

Well I dont think our side is to happy either. Go on the SWAPA forum, or pprune ( some of the AT guys are on it already ) and read what the SWA pilots thinks. I personally do not think the is going to pass the SWA side.

So tell me Music, what would you change? I know what the SWA would like to change. I doubt the AT guys would be willing to give the changes that the SWA side wants.

I do not think either side has anything to give the other side. Both sides view this a a raw deal.

 

[freightdogfred]

Well I dont think our side is to happy either. Go on the SWAPA forum, or pprune ( some of the AT guys are on it already ) and read what the SWA pilots thinks. I personally do not think the is going to pass the SWA side.

So tell me Music, what would you change? I know what the SWA would like to change. I doubt the AT guys would be willing to give the changes that the SWA side wants.

I do not think either side has anything to give the other side. Both sides view this a a raw deal.

What are the changes the SWA side wants? Im really curious, not flaming.

 

[madjack]

What are the changes the SWA side wants?


For this all to be just a bad dream...

 

[slaquer5]

What are the changes the SWA side wants?


For this all to be just a bad dream...

That is about the best way to put it

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[RLAblows]

I'm curious also. What does the SWA side want? It's pretty obvious what the AT pilots want.

 

[Lear70]

I do not think either side has anything to give the other side. Both sides view this a a raw deal.

I'm pretty certain it will fail vote here as well.

It may not even make it out of MEC vote, the MKE pilots are gearing up to force their F/O rep to vote yes or they'll recall her. The MCO reps are calling their CA's and F/O's and so far not a single "Yes" vote as of yesterday afternoon (yes, some of our most senior CA's in the company are in MCO and are voting No).

Those reps will take that consensus to the vote on Thursday and, if they vote the wishes of their pilots they represent, combined with two ATL reps who are already known "No" votes and the possible 2nd ATL F/O Rep voting "No", it'll die by simple majority at the MEC before it ever goes for vote.

Then we go to mediation, and that's the problem: both sides have nowhere to go that will pass membership. If this middle-of-the-road deal can't pass, then certainly nothing that takes MORE from either side will pass, and we're headed to arbitration.

 

[tailwindz]

Lear,

"IF" what you say is true, that the ATL reps are voting No, then its a done deal. All they have to do is call for a roll call vote, vote no and it over.

 

[madjack]

Lear70,

I hope that AAI votes this down than the onus will be on your group...but are you guys nuts? AAI CPS seat protected until 2020, AAI senior FOs longevity increase, all AAI pilots receiving a raise and a career at a more successful and stable carrier??

Again I hope and really do believe you will vote this down, but talk about looking a "gift horse in the mouth"...if arbitration and resultant negotiations between SWAPA and SWA do not go in the former AAI pilots favor, you will have a serious case of "self ass kicking" to deal with...

 

[madjack]

I'm curious also. What does the SWA side want? It's pretty obvious what the AT pilots want.

We want AAI to vote this AIP down...it will pass on the SWA side (IMHO)

 

[27 driver]

I'm pretty certain it will fail vote here as well.

It may not even make it out of MEC vote, the MKE pilots are gearing up to force their F/O rep to vote yes or they'll recall her. The MCO reps are calling their CA's and F/O's and so far not a single "Yes" vote as of yesterday afternoon (yes, some of our most senior CA's in the company are in MCO and are voting No).

Those reps will take that consensus to the vote on Thursday and, if they vote the wishes of their pilots they represent, combined with two ATL reps who are already known "No" votes and the possible 2nd ATL F/O Rep voting "No", it'll die by simple majority at the MEC before it ever goes for vote.

Then we go to mediation, and that's the problem: both sides have nowhere to go that will pass membership. If this middle-of-the-road deal can't pass, then certainly nothing that takes MORE from either side will pass, and we're headed to arbitration.

Respectfully Lear you are wrong. I have emailed my reps in MCO 3 times indicating I want to vote on this. To date I have not received a call or reply from either GP or CG. So if they are calling folks they are selectively calling. I guess you can skew the results of any poll by choosing the right people to poll or asking the question a different way. I have spoken with several yes voters.