Final Agreement reached

[ASADFW7]

Dicko, I do not care where you sit, there are a hell of a lot more first officers to deal with at SWA that won't put up with your crap, if you actually get to fly with us.

 

[Lear70]

The reason pay matters to seniority is bc we all base our career choices on our best educated guess on pay, stability, bases, and type flying.-
Stop pretending it doesn't matter- that's a lie-

Speak for yourself there, chief. Back when I was a 727 Captain and we found out our company was going out of business, I had job offers at places that paid more (Netjets) but took a regional (PCL) by CHOICE because I wanted to build my 121 PIC time so I could make it to a Major carrier.

I got interview offers from both Northwest and a 2nd bite at United while I was at AirTran; I didn't go to either interview. I liked my job at AirTran, my quality of life, the people I flew with, I thought it would be "the next Southwest" as a fast up-and-coming operator with low costs, brand new jets, and I was having fun. Same reason I never re-updated my application at Southwest when the window re-opened and my 6 months had passed from my last interview.

After 3 years of making the same money flying Lears and Falcons that I would have as an AAI F/O but flying nights, weekends, getting 9 days off a month, and hardly seeing my family as a result, I have an even GREATER respect for my quality of life over money, which is the reason I bid max days off and weekends off in MCO, regardless of what line credit that gives me.

Sometimes people make choices based SOLELY on their quality of life. Despite how much more income they MIGHT make in the future. It's fine that you don't do that. I have.

Tell you what... I'll give you every DIME of my increased income from this deal and you give me relative seniority so that I can keep my quality of life and upgrade when my number would come up (about 6-7 more years instead of 12-15). How's that?

Here's one last thing for you to ponder. We offered SWA to not pay us SWA rates until we transitioned over the line in training and INSTEAD give ALL that money from now 'til then to the SWA pilots in exchange for even HALF of where we'd be with Date of Hire (a 4-5% decrease in the relative seniority hit we take). It was over $100 Million directly to your pilots. SWAPA said no. Do you know why? Because your Negotiating Committee wanted seniority over money.

Guess it's not all about the money.

 

[Lear70]

Anybody figured out yet that both sides are being played by SWA?

The cheapest, easiest solution has been presented, convoluted beyond imagination.

Who really wins, who really pays for this deal in the end?

Mr. Smith will now come and assimilate me back into the matrix.

You said it... I didn't.

 

[Lear70]

And by the way, Wave, you asked me where I'd be with Date of Hire?

I'd go from the 26% decrease in relative seniority to a 12% decrease in relative seniority. Nearly 1,500 people less above me on the list, at least 7-8 years closer to upgrade (half my current, projected time), and holding the same Quality of Life I hold now in my same base.

Everyone's in a different spot. 1/4 of our F/O's at the bottom would still be at the bottom. 1/4 of our CA's at the top would still be in roughly the same place they are now. Everyone else does considerably better.

 

[Sacha]

Lear 70

After 6 years of contract negotiations that went nowhere, were you one of the 98% that voted to strike? On one hand you tell us life was so great that you didn't want to go anywhere else like United, Northwest or Southwest but then you are so angry that you voted to shut the airline down. That's an interesting way of looking at your career to say the least. I am afraid Im throwing the BS flag.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sacha-

UPS, Fedex and Hawaiian have taken strike votes. Did that make those jobs less desirable, or did it make them more desirable, in the long run?

During SLI arbitration, did the fact that NWA had taken many strike votes over the decades, and actually struck, have any effect whatsoever on the arbitrated SLI ? Of course not.

Btw, you guys should probably consider yourselves lucky that the Merger Announcement came before we got closer to being released by the NMB, or the difference between your pay rates and ours could have been much smaller, and you would have lost that bargaining chip altogether.

 

[Whine Lover]

A few points to ponder:

( A relative of mine is an 8 year Airtran Captain.)

We were discussing yesterday his absolutely crappy schedules ( redeyes etc. ) even after 8 years and being in the top 1/3 of the seniority list.

Apparently, he will lose about 36% of his Seniority with the current proposal.

It dawned on me that SWA doesn't even DO redeyes, and that they have schedules that allow AM and PM bidding so you are not "all over the clock" so to speak, and as well can actually plan a commute. It seems that SWA has more flexibility in scheduling, bidding,trading, days off, etc.

SO...It seems to me, that.... even with a loss of relative Seniority, there is a very good possibility that his QOL will increase as far as schedules, commute, and lifestyle are concerned. (?)

Discuss.


YKMKR

 

[jonjuan]

Btw, you guys should probably consider yourselves lucky that the Merger Announcement came before we got closer to being released by the NMB, or the difference between your pay rates and ours could have been much smaller, and you would have lost that bargaining chip altogether.

Truer words have never been said. A merger announcement 3 months later and we'd be looking at a completely different ball of wax.

 

[Fubijaakr]

....you would have lost that bargaining chip altogether.

Personally, I'd stop reinforcing the idea that pay even IS a bargaining chip. It is not. It is only in the context of seniority of Captain upgrade time.

 

[Sacha]

Ty,

Put the strike vote in context with his story. Not too many fedex or ups guys bailing to go elsewhere unless they can't handle night cargo. They are using muscle to improve already good contracts because they can. Big difference. If Airtran is in a parallel universe with Fedex, Northwest etc.then why do we have 200 or more former Airtran guys at SWA? How many former SWA guys do you have at Airtran?....None. Why? I regularly fly with several former Airtran guys so I have heard in detail what it is like. That's why I threw the BS flag. After further review the call still stands. Will this matter in arbitration?
Nope. If there are some pilots here that can't see the BS in Lears story, I can assure you an arbitrator sure as hell won't.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70

After 6 years of contract negotiations that went nowhere, were you one of the 98% that voted to strike? On one hand you tell us life was so great that you didn't want to go anywhere else like United, Northwest or Southwest but then you are so angry that you voted to shut the airline down. That's an interesting way of looking at your career to say the least. I am afraid Im throwing the BS flag.

So I take it you've never been through a strike?

A strike vote is a tool. It's not a vote to "shut the airline down". It's a tool to bring management to the table with a reasonable offer when they otherwise will not. Many, many, MANY carriers have had successful strike VOTES without ever having to go on strike. For anyone with a variety of airline experience (like the arbitrator panel), this argument just doesn't hold water.

And it's not that I didn't want to go to Southwest. I think it's a great company and am looking forward to it. I just didn't want to start over again once I got to where I could apply again. Quality of life decision, not a reflection on the desirability of a Southwest career whatsoever.

A few points to ponder:

( A relative of mine is an 8 year Airtran Captain.)

We were discussing yesterday his absolutely crappy schedules ( redeyes etc. ) even after 8 years and being in the top 1/3 of the seniority list.

Apparently, he will lose about 36% of his Seniority with the current proposal.

It dawned on me that SWA doesn't even DO redeyes, and that they have schedules that allow AM and PM bidding so you are not "all over the clock" so to speak, and as well can actually plan a commute. It seems that SWA has more flexibility in scheduling, bidding,trading, days off, etc.

SO...It seems to me, that.... even with a loss of relative Seniority, there is a very good possibility that his QOL will increase as far as schedules, commute, and lifestyle are concerned. (?)

Discuss.


YKMKR

An 8 year Captain is pretty junior, as our CA list goes. Maybe off reserve, maybe holding a buildup line. For them, the elimination of CDO's and redeyes is DEFINITELY a good thing in terms of quality of life.

The question is, will those go away? Certainly not for the next year or so; our schedules are already sold. Will they stay for the entire 3 year transition period? Will they go away when we transition to the SWA side of the ops? Nobody knows. They're being analyzed, according to what the Merger Committee tells us. If they can be made profitable, they might even stay PERMANENTLY. For ALL SWA pilots.

That said, I sure as hell hope not. I don't fly those. Ever. My body doesn't tolerate the back-and-forth on the back side of the clock. I think they're dangerous with the way our airline runs them, and years of fatigue study verifies that belief.

 

[Dan Roman]

Geez, WOULD YOU PLEASE BRING YOUR B-777 and B747-4 RATE UP TO OUR B-717 RATE, YOU'RE KILLING us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say's the guy working for the airline that most of it's existance paid way below industry standard wages, it's pilots worked more hours than most and they accepted a substandard retirement to build their airline. It was the airlines like Delta that raised the bar enough to give you guys something to shoot for. You undercut them and now they are on a down cycle because of it, but that doesn't mean they won't be getting gains in the future.
You guys are doing well in the LCC niche right now and good on you, but you look like an ass with statements like that.

 

[Lear70]

Ty,

Put the strike vote in context with his story. Not too many fedex or ups guys bailing to go elsewhere unless they can't handle night cargo. They are using muscle to improve already good contracts because they can. Big difference. If Airtran is in a parallel universe with Fedex, Northwest etc.then why do we have 200 or more former Airtran guys at SWA? How many former SWA guys do you have at Airtran?....None. Why? I regularly fly with several former Airtran guys so I have heard in detail what it is like. That's why I threw the BS flag. After further review the call still stands. Will this matter in arbitration?
Nope. If there are some pilots here that can't see the BS in Lears story, I can assure you an arbitrator sure as hell won't.

You have your opinion. Some of us don't agree with you. It is not your place to tell us how we should think. Just as WE won't tell YOU how you should think.

I don't do fear. I don't do aggression. I will debate calmly and rationally as long as other people do the same. Rational people can disagree with each other respectfully, no problems. But to attack someone personally saying that they're "lying" (as Wave has) or are talking "B.S." is simply going to put you in the same pile that Vixen and Bob Dylan are already in... my ignore list.

You may not understand how many of us think. That's fine. Nothing wrong with not being able to think the same as someone else. We're individuals, we're not always going to agree. We just don't attack each other personally over it. You "agree to disagree" and move on.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sacha:

Many, if not most, of the pilots who left here and went to SWA hadn't even finished their first year here; they had interviewed at both, and when SWA called them, they left training, or their reserve line, or their "build up" line, and went to SWA. They had little invested here, and so they had little to lose.

I've heard the true number is only about 65 pilots, by the way.

 

[Penguin46]

Airlines Risk Deeper Cuts Amid U.S. Wealth ‘Destruction’

"It's not a matter of if, it is a matter of how much." If true...hopefully the expanded SWA will be in a better anticipated position to capture market share; even as cumulative airline ridership decreases.

Shouldn't all pilots be fans of SWA with their pilot wages and culture?

The good news, a faltering economy will take the squeeze off of fuel prices.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...deeper-cuts-amid-u-s-wealth-destruction-.html

Cheers

 

[Sacha]

Lear,
Not agreeing with you or calling you out on your "spin" is not telling you how to think. Not even close. Nor is it calling you a liar.

Ty,
Whether they left after one week or ten years doesn't change the fact that they indeed left. People don't leave for something worse. Rarely for neutral. Only for a better life and you know it. Two of the three guys I regularly fly with were Captains at Air Tran. An anomaly? Who cares. The fact is they left and are (were) happy campers.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,
Whether they left after one week or ten years doesn't change the fact that they indeed left. People don't leave for something worse. Rarely for neutral. Only for a better life and you know it. Two of the three guys I regularly fly with were Captains at Air Tran. An anomaly? Who cares. The fact is they left and are (were) happy campers.

Sacha:

This stuff has been covered before. Plenty of pilots also left SWA when the majors were all hiring.

People leave for their own reasons, whether it is for faster upgrade, more desirable base, better pay, better working conditions, etc.

We are all looking forward to being a part of SWA, but to denigrate AirTran does not serve any good purpose.

 

[Sacha]

Not denigrating Airtran. Just trying to expose revisionism by some of your guys about how life was great at Airtran. And the sacrifice that they are all now making because of this acquisition. Hell a lot of guys sound more shocked and Po'd than I was the morning Frank Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp took over Eastern. I knew we were not getting pay raises and seat protection along with shiny new airplanes. What I did was get out my logbooks and update my resume. Good grief.

 

[waveflyer]

Three of the pilots I know at SWA came straight out of a J32 on their first interview. All of them are great people and utterly unremarkable.

"Worked harder" is a myth that makes people feel better when it takes them 5-10 years to get hired. It makes them feel special.

I'm not going to spew out my entire resume bc that misses the point. It's not about working "harder" or always being moreskilled- it's about making long term choices to get a better, higher paying job.
So here's my story- but it wouldn't be relevant if it weren't common. I had the chance to go to AT in 2004- and was also considering Amer West and ATA that year- on the advice of SWA, I stayed at my regional to pad my PIC time (I had 1350turbine121 PIC at the time) and get a check airman slot. I'd already had right seat time in larger jets at a legacy, so it's what I needed to do to be more qualified for SWA. Direct quote:"sitting in the right seat no matter how big the jet is always less valuable to us than being in command and taking on leadership roles" It also let me make $20k more the next year, which helped pay for the type.
Now I'm sure there are very well qualified, goodpilots who live locally and got the job they got- the point is that most swa pilots did not fly j32's for a year or two. In fact, a very large percentage of our pilots had to interview 2 or 3 times.
It's not a disrespect to you as a pilot and person today that SWA is a better, more competitive job to get than AT. If you can't agree with that, when all empiracle evidence points to it, then you have an ego problem. Not me.

Besides, what are you going to do? Tell me how you worked just as hard to get a lesser job that I turned down years earlier? What would that say about you?
(now that^^^was ego!- pilots will always have various amounts of good and bad timing making our way in this career- and we land where we land. That doesn't mean starting with a goal and achieving the better job is meaningless or inconsequential.)

 

[Lear70]

Lear,
Not agreeing with you or calling you out on your "spin" is not telling you how to think. Not even close. Nor is it calling you a liar.

That was in response to Wave telling me I was lying a couple days ago, although in all fairness he was probably simply insinuating the same thing you did that what I'm doing is providing "spin" when, in fact, I'm simply explaining my own thought process, which probably doesn't account for jack crap, at the end of the day, but it's still my own thoughts.

Like I've said before, the internet is a crappy way to communicate. Always has been. :beer: