Final Agreement reached

[PapaWoody]

Like I've said before, the internet is a crappy way to communicate. Always has been. :beer:

Unless you're into porn, then the internet is an AWESOME way to communicate!!

PW

 

[dicko]

Dicko, I do not care where you sit, there are a hell of a lot more first officers to deal with at SWA that won't put up with your crap, if you actually get to fly with us.

"Put up with my crap" ..... Where did that come from ?

If it was displaced aggression than I'm good with it. I'm a proponent of it myself.

 

[ASADFW7]

Isn't this all about displaced aggression?

 

[dicko]

Isn't this all about displaced aggression?

Yes. Indeed it is.

 

[madjack]

Dicko, Ty, all AAI CPS,

You folks seem like good dudes and I will probably be flying with you if you move out west...as a 10 year FO I would trade places with you and gladly give up my seniority for a SWA CP seat, even if it means sitting on the bottom till 2020...an upgrade in hand is worth two in the bush...congrats even though you don't (but will) appreciate what you are getting...

 

[StopNTSing]

Say's the guy working for the airline that most of it's existance paid way below industry standard wages, it's pilots worked more hours than most and they accepted a substandard retirement to build their airline. It was the airlines like Delta that raised the bar enough to give you guys something to shoot for. You undercut them and now they are on a down cycle because of it, but that doesn't mean they won't be getting gains in the future.
You guys are doing well in the LCC niche right now and good on you, but you look like an ass with statements like that.

Lighten up, Dan. If you want to dwell in the past, it was also an airline called Delta that let the first CRJ go to Comair. You know the rest of that story. Point being it's ALL water under the bridge.

 

[dicko]

Dicko, Ty, all AAI CPS,

You folks seem like good dudes and I will probably be flying with you if you move out west...as a 10 year FO I would trade places with you and gladly give up my seniority for a SWA CP seat, even if it means sitting on the bottom till 2020...an upgrade in hand is worth two in the bush...congrats even though you don't (but will) appreciate what you are getting...

Despite my cynicism, your opinion does resonate. I get what you're saying.

Cheers,

D.

 

[Ty Webb]

Same here, MJ.

I think many of us would like to see a solution where our guys aren't superglued to the bottom, and where your senior FO's see some upgrades; unfortunately, that isn't the Agreement we are all holding our noses and looking at.

 

[waveflyer]

Speak for yourself there, chief. Back when I was a 727 Captain and we found out our company was going out of business, I had job offers at places that paid more (Netjets) but took a regional (PCL) by CHOICE because I wanted to build my 121 PIC time so I could make it to a Major carrier.

I got interview offers from both Northwest and a 2nd bite at United while I was at AirTran; I didn't go to either interview. I liked my job at AirTran, my quality of life, the people I flew with, I thought it would be "the next Southwest" as a fast up-and-coming operator with low costs, brand new jets, and I was having fun. Same reason I never re-updated my application at Southwest when the window re-opened and my 6 months had passed from my last interview.

After 3 years of making the same money flying Lears and Falcons that I would have as an AAI F/O but flying nights, weekends, getting 9 days off a monthand hardly seeing my family as a result, I have an even GREATER respect for my quality of life over money, which is the reason I bid max days off and weekends off in MCO, regardless of what line credit that gives me.

Sometimes people make choices based SOLELY on their quality of life. Despite how much more income they MIGHT make in the future. It's fine that you don't do that. I have.

Tell you what... I'll give you every DIME of my increased income from this deal and you give me relative seniority so that I can keep my quality of life and upgrade when my number would come up (about 6-7 more years instead of 12-15). How's that?

Here's one last thing for you to ponder. We offered SWA to not pay us SWA rates until we transitioned over the line in training and INSTEAD give ALL that money from now 'til then to the SWA pilots in exchange for even HALF of where we'd be with Date of Hire (a 4-5% decrease in the relative seniority hit we take). It was over $100 Million directly to your pilots. SWAPA said no. Do you know why? Because your Negotiating Committee wanted seniority over money.

Guess it's not all about the money.

That last part is interesting bc I've heard that suggested on the line quite often.

Look- I'm just seeing how your getting butt-hurt saying I'm calling you a liar.
Im not. That's too harsh a judgement. I do think you're lying to yourself though- and you proved it above. If QOL is paramount- why would you take the first available upgrade and not stay a senior FO.
The lie I'm talking about is that money doesn't matter and is inconsequential to all of our career moves- when I would say it's right at the top of what motivates us. Ive been in this industry for long enough and at enough places to know that money is the primary reason most people take that seniority hit and start over at the bottom of the captain list. It's a fact- we aren't building time anymore- at the majors, most of the reason we upgrade immediately and don't delay is bc of MONEY.
And QOL is exactly what we've been saying Lear! You don't live our schedules- I do. We do. I'm junior- my life is great. The pairing parity is very even. You don't work under the stresslessness of our mgmt- I do. Its a valuable thing to show up to work and get hugs and laugh all day- never fearing retribution -

How was your QOL when Air Tran fired you and you had to fight like hell to get your job back??

That's a bit below the belt, but Air Tran did that to you. Why? If AT is so great? I didn't do that, and SWA would never if you get on the list-

You're a good dude, and not a liar- but I do think you have convinced yourself of an untruth. Our contract should translate into seniority for us- it's quite literally the only thing your group brings to the table.

Good luck Lear- I do respect you and wish good things for you- I just know you'll be happier at swa than you ever were at AT and you minimizing it and calling it a sacrifice is silly in the eyes of those of us who have lived it.

 

[Music]

You don't work under the stresslessness of our mgmt- I do. Its a valuable thing to show up to work and get hugs and laugh all day- never fearing retribution

You know this has been stated time and time again, yet why are we having to decide on an agreement where continued employment or other undefined threats that may or may not have been made by GK and company are part of our decision process. Feels real similar to what we've been dealing with for 6 years.

 

[slaquer5]

You know this has been stated time and time again, yet why are we having to decide on an agreement where continued employment or other undefined threats that may or may not have been made by GK and company are part of our decision process. Feels real similar to what we've been dealing with for 6 years.

Well I dont think our side is to happy either. Go on the SWAPA forum, or pprune ( some of the AT guys are on it already ) and read what the SWA pilots thinks. I personally do not think the is going to pass the SWA side.

So tell me Music, what would you change? I know what the SWA would like to change. I doubt the AT guys would be willing to give the changes that the SWA side wants.

I do not think either side has anything to give the other side. Both sides view this a a raw deal.

 

[freightdogfred]

Well I dont think our side is to happy either. Go on the SWAPA forum, or pprune ( some of the AT guys are on it already ) and read what the SWA pilots thinks. I personally do not think the is going to pass the SWA side.

So tell me Music, what would you change? I know what the SWA would like to change. I doubt the AT guys would be willing to give the changes that the SWA side wants.

I do not think either side has anything to give the other side. Both sides view this a a raw deal.

What are the changes the SWA side wants? Im really curious, not flaming.

 

[madjack]

What are the changes the SWA side wants?


For this all to be just a bad dream...

 

[slaquer5]

What are the changes the SWA side wants?


For this all to be just a bad dream...

That is about the best way to put it

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[RLAblows]

I'm curious also. What does the SWA side want? It's pretty obvious what the AT pilots want.

 

[Lear70]

I do not think either side has anything to give the other side. Both sides view this a a raw deal.

I'm pretty certain it will fail vote here as well.

It may not even make it out of MEC vote, the MKE pilots are gearing up to force their F/O rep to vote yes or they'll recall her. The MCO reps are calling their CA's and F/O's and so far not a single "Yes" vote as of yesterday afternoon (yes, some of our most senior CA's in the company are in MCO and are voting No).

Those reps will take that consensus to the vote on Thursday and, if they vote the wishes of their pilots they represent, combined with two ATL reps who are already known "No" votes and the possible 2nd ATL F/O Rep voting "No", it'll die by simple majority at the MEC before it ever goes for vote.

Then we go to mediation, and that's the problem: both sides have nowhere to go that will pass membership. If this middle-of-the-road deal can't pass, then certainly nothing that takes MORE from either side will pass, and we're headed to arbitration.

 

[tailwindz]

Lear,

"IF" what you say is true, that the ATL reps are voting No, then its a done deal. All they have to do is call for a roll call vote, vote no and it over.

 

[madjack]

Lear70,

I hope that AAI votes this down than the onus will be on your group...but are you guys nuts? AAI CPS seat protected until 2020, AAI senior FOs longevity increase, all AAI pilots receiving a raise and a career at a more successful and stable carrier??

Again I hope and really do believe you will vote this down, but talk about looking a "gift horse in the mouth"...if arbitration and resultant negotiations between SWAPA and SWA do not go in the former AAI pilots favor, you will have a serious case of "self ass kicking" to deal with...

 

[madjack]

I'm curious also. What does the SWA side want? It's pretty obvious what the AT pilots want.

We want AAI to vote this AIP down...it will pass on the SWA side (IMHO)

 

[27 driver]

I'm pretty certain it will fail vote here as well.

It may not even make it out of MEC vote, the MKE pilots are gearing up to force their F/O rep to vote yes or they'll recall her. The MCO reps are calling their CA's and F/O's and so far not a single "Yes" vote as of yesterday afternoon (yes, some of our most senior CA's in the company are in MCO and are voting No).

Those reps will take that consensus to the vote on Thursday and, if they vote the wishes of their pilots they represent, combined with two ATL reps who are already known "No" votes and the possible 2nd ATL F/O Rep voting "No", it'll die by simple majority at the MEC before it ever goes for vote.

Then we go to mediation, and that's the problem: both sides have nowhere to go that will pass membership. If this middle-of-the-road deal can't pass, then certainly nothing that takes MORE from either side will pass, and we're headed to arbitration.

Respectfully Lear you are wrong. I have emailed my reps in MCO 3 times indicating I want to vote on this. To date I have not received a call or reply from either GP or CG. So if they are calling folks they are selectively calling. I guess you can skew the results of any poll by choosing the right people to poll or asking the question a different way. I have spoken with several yes voters.