Final Agreement reached

[Lear70]

Respectfully Lear you are wrong. I have emailed my reps in MCO 3 times indicating I want to vote on this.

Respectfully, I spoke to GP yesterday for 20 minutes. He indicated he had not heard from anyone who wanted a vote at this point, although in fairness he said that if people weren't putting in their email that they were MCO F/O's, he wasn't trying to match names to the domicile F/O list, as he's getting thousands of emails from people emailing the ATN email from all domiciles multiple times.

Him telling me this is what prompted my post on the internal message board yesterday, telling people to email him with their name and seat position in the very beginning of the email so he could start keeping a list.

So any "incorrect" information comes directly from the source. If you're a CA, GP hasn't been keeping track of your desires, as he's the F/O rep. You need to contact CG if that's the case.

To date I have not received a call or reply from either GP or CG. So if they are calling folks they are selectively calling. I guess you can skew the results of any poll by choosing the right people to poll or asking the question a different way. I have spoken with several yes voters.

I guess it depends what seat you're sitting in. Only one CA I've flown with or talked to is voting Yes, the rest are adamant No voters, and I fly with a different CA every trip since I trade around so much for more days at home.

On the other subject, CG is the only one calling each of his CA's individually in MCO. If you're in the left seat, he probably hasn't gotten to you yet (there's 70-some CA's in base, would probably take a few days since everyone would want to talk 15-20 minutes minimum). If you're an F/O, GP has asked everyone to eMail him rather than phone everyone, in the interest of time. We only have 48 hours 'til they vote.

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

"IF" what you say is true, that the ATL reps are voting No, then its a done deal. All they have to do is call for a roll call vote, vote no and it over.

2 ATL reps don't have the numbers for a roll call vote.

It would take 3 ATL reps or 2 ATL reps and 2 reps from any other base and seat to control a roll call vote. I think many of the reps are leaning one way or another but waiting for the MEC meeting tomorrow to hear directly from the pilots in conjunction with the emails and phone calls they're receiving.

 

[BlueandWhite]

The small group of posters on the SWAPA forum and on PPrune do not speak for all 5900+ SWA pilots. I do not presume to speak for them either. I have no idea what will happen on the AAI side, but assuming it goes to a vote, the choice for both sides is not whether it is a good or bad agreement (you can decide that for yourself). The real choice will be: good or bad - is this agreement better than what would come out of arbitration? There are lots of things that upset both sides in this agreement, but if you really study this, there are some good things for both sides that may be lost if we go to arbitration. I know what is in this SLI. I have no clue and get no say what will be in a future arbitration ruling.
I don't like everything in this SLI, but it is something that pilots from BOTH sides worked very hard to come to an agreement on. Pilots that are a lot smarter than I am on this topic. I have read the SLI once, and plan on going over it many times more, asking questions of my reps. Then I will decide how I vote. I urge everyone involved to do the same - study it, ask questions to your respective negotiating/merger committees. and decide for yourself which will be better - arbitration or SLI. Just the thoughts from one small voice in the crowd. Sincere best wishes to all SWA and Air Tran pilots involved.

 

[Music]

So tell me Music, what would you change? I know what the SWA would like to change. I doubt the AT guys would be willing to give the changes that the SWA side wants.

I do not think either side has anything to give the other side. Both sides view this a a raw deal.

For me, I can't live with a 3.91 year seniority loss coupled with the C & Rs that accompany the agreement. For me (and I can only speak for me), I would like to see better seniority and very few C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" me. I want my seniority (what ever it ends up being) to protect me (or not) and not have a C & R written to compensate for the "lack" of it.

 

[Lear70]

I hope that AAI votes this down than the onus will be on your group...but are you guys nuts? AAI CPS seat protected until 2020, AAI senior FOs longevity increase, all AAI pilots receiving a raise and a career at a more successful and stable carrier??

I could go on and on about the "protections" that weren't realized, one of your own pilots has pointed one or two of them out on here. I know most of you won't understand it, I wouldn't expect you to on your side of the fence, but the simple fact is that most of us would rather take our chances in arbitration and let simple seniority do the job of "protecting" what needs protecting.

Again I hope and really do believe you will vote this down, but talk about looking a "gift horse in the mouth"...if arbitration and resultant negotiations between SWAPA and SWA do not go in the former AAI pilots favor, you will have a serious case of "self ass kicking" to deal with...

Possibly. But have you considered that the shoe may be on the other foot in the end? Favoring us quite a bit more but not bad enough to drive SWAPA to sour your relationship with Southwest by pulling a F9?

It's a risk. For both sides. But the general consensus seems to be that it's not a fair shake and that we'd rather have an arbitrator decide what's fair than just voluntarily give it away. I could be wrong, it could still pass, but after speaking with most of the reps first-hand and listening to first-time board posters, guys who used to fight bitterly now on the same page, etc, all pushing the MEC to vote it down,,,

The good news is that by voting it down at the MEC level there's time to return to the table for mediation (there won't be if it goes to vote and dies at pilot vote). If SWAPA and SWA are willing to move towards a passable agreement, then we can still avoid arbitration. I don't know if that's a realistic possibility, but I still hope it can happen.

 

[Ty Webb]

MJ-


Unfortunately, there are just too many "gotcha's" in this thing.

• The "ATL protections" do not apply to half of our pilots, since the base is being reduced. I'm at 29% on our list, and I won't even hold ATL. Those protections don't help me at all.

• The half of the Pilot Group that gets displaced gets the "double-whammy" of being displaced, but with 30% seniority loss.

• System-wide losses of Captain seats will be born by AirTran pilots, since we'll have lost 4 years/30%.

• While downgraded, we'll make less per hour than we did at AAI!

I hope you can see from just these examples, there are legitimate issues and concerns that are driving this; we're not "greedy" or "bad employees". We don't want to go down this road, but this SIA is fraught with problems.

 

[texman]

For me, I can't live with a 3.91 year seniority loss coupled with the C & Rs that accompany the agreement. For me (and I can only speak for me), I would like to see better seniority and very few C & Rs that are supposed to "protect" me. I want my seniority (what ever it ends up being) to protect me (or not) and not have a C & R written to compensate for the "lack" of it.

This is just ME! Well I feel that your all about ME comments are exactly what we don't want at SWA. Everyone has to take a hit in this deal. " I can't take a 3.91 year seniority loss". Cry me a river!

I am upset with how some of the AT guy's are now in the position of what more can we get! All the SWA guy's blew a f-ing top when the on the CUSP AT fo's got a longevity pay bump. Now we have AT captians that have said "I just want to keep my seat", but can't take a seniority hit.

I am sorry but being a SWA JR FO and very grateful to work here, all I see is "ME" on the AT side. I just don't get it! Can't you people look down the road and see the future. I made sacrifice to be part of SWA, so do YOU! It's called success sharing. If you don't like the QOL and $ you will get at SWA, Quit!

Lear 70 is the only level headed person on this board and I wouldn't mine pulling his gear, but not for some punk b eatch entitled AT Capt!


GK AND SWA ARE BEING MORE THAN GENEROUS!

 

[Fubijaakr]

I would trade places with you and gladly give up my seniority for a SWA CP seat, even if it means sitting on the bottom till 2020...an upgrade in hand is worth two in the bush...congrats even though you don't (but will) appreciate what you are getting...

No you wouldn't or you wouldn't be advocating stapling 650 AAI F/Os and embargoing them from upgrading for a decade so you can. Nice try though.

 

[scoreboardII]

Possibly. But have you considered that the shoe may be on the other foot in the end? .

Lear, if this goes to arby, SWAPA gets to write the pay scale and the fence agreement, ALPA is out. So which airframe could be seat locked for life at 60% pay? You want arby, your seat, your seniority and our pay? OK, but be careful what you wish for.

 

[greenpilot]

The good news is that by voting it down at the MEC level there's time to return to the table for mediation (there won't be if it goes to vote and dies at pilot vote). If SWAPA and SWA are willing to move towards a passable agreement, then we can still avoid arbitration. I don't know if that's a realistic possibility, but I still hope it can happen.

Lear
I asked one of the reps what happens if the mec votes this down. I was told it goes to arbitration. We don't have time for more negotioations due to the voting time line. Swapa needs 45 days. I was also told mediation was a waste of time. Both sides would go back to their original proposals.

 

[dicko]

. So which airframe could be seat locked for life at 60% pay?

What you wrote is a DFR issue. You can do it, but you have to do it to everybody. In other words, if you lower the rates for the 717 you can't trap AirTran pilots on it for life. You may also find that the Arbiter sets the seat locks.

SWA pilots would be flying the "low rate" airplane as well. Kind of defeats the purpose of the "evil plan".

Just a thought, from the evil lair.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

After sitting here reading this stuff for an hour I had a realization. This is a waste of time. No one is changing anyones mind. It's like religion at this point. Also this thing is most likely doomed to fail either at the hands of the AAI MEC or the AAI membership. It's not worth discussing. I'm going to step away from the computer and go pick my kids up from school and take them to the Y to swim. See you all on the other side fo the Arbi


Cheers,
Ghetto

 

[texman]

What you wrote is a DFR issue. You can do it, but you have to do it to everybody. In other words, if you lower the rates for the 717 you can't trap AirTran pilots on it for life. You may also find that the Arbiter sets the seat locks.

SWA pilots would be flying the "low rate" airplane as well. Kind of defeats the purpose of the "evil plan".

Just a thought, from the evil lair.

Not true, DFR will not hold against our SL8. Either AT's aircraft are in SWA paint or we give up section 1, and you will never grow. Your Fo's will never upgrade, and your JR capts will always be JR.

 

[dicko]

Not true, DFR will not hold against our SL8. Either AT's aircraft are in SWA paint or we give up section 1, and you will never grow. Your Fo's will never upgrade, and your JR capts will always be JR.

So, pretty much the same as this proposed agreement .....

We were discussing 717 Rates. The non integration argument has already flown the coop.

 

[scoreboardII]

So, pretty much the same as this proposed agreement .....
.

Minus a 40% pay cut, no chance to ever cross to the SWA side, absorbs 100% of all furloughing, no seat protections, no FO A scale plus pay, no me -too clause, no ATL one way fence, other than that, yes, same as the deal now.

 

[dicko]

Minus a 40% pay cut, no chance to ever cross to the SWA side, absorbs 100% of all furloughing, no seat protections, no FO A scale plus pay, no me -too clause, no ATL one way fence, other than that, yes, same as the deal now.

Your boss has already told you that he's going to integrate. So you're going to have to try do all of that stuff to members of your own union.

How are do you think you'll get around a DFR lawsuit when that list is read to a judge ?

It's pretty disgusting that any union would even consider that just for a seniority bump. It sounds like Michael Vick is running the show over there.

 

[Sacha]

So you compare our in house union to a thug that tortures animals. Then on the Jet blue thread you are bashing ALPA saying they are not doing anything for you as you list the ALPA mergers that have not been perfect in your eyes. So where does that leave you? Teamster? Seiu? Inhouse? What? If you are a Valuejet guy, I understand since you have been lost since birth but you sound plum out of options.

 

[dicko]

So you compare our in house union to a thug that tortures animals. Then on the Jet blue thread you are bashing ALPA saying they are not doing anything for you as you list the ALPA mergers that have not been perfect in your eyes. So where does that leave you? Teamster? Seiu? Inhouse? What? If you are a Valuejet guy, I understand since you have been lost since birth but you sound plum out of options.

Yup. You got me ....Ex Eastern Valujet guy and damn proud of it. If you've got a few minutes I'd like to tell you about the DC9. Or as we call it "The 9".

Lets start off with flight controls, and the importance of the 'Porkchop' .....

 

[Music]

This is just ME! Well I feel that your all about ME comments are exactly what we don't want at SWA. Everyone has to take a hit in this deal. " I can't take a 3.91 year seniority loss". Cry me a river!

I am upset with how some of the AT guy's are now in the position of what more can we get! All the SWA guy's blew a f-ing top when the on the CUSP AT fo's got a longevity pay bump. Now we have AT captians that have said "I just want to keep my seat", but can't take a seniority hit.

I am sorry but being a SWA JR FO and very grateful to work here, all I see is "ME" on the AT side. I just don't get it! Can't you people look down the road and see the future. I made sacrifice to be part of SWA, so do YOU! It's called success sharing. If you don't like the QOL and $ you will get at SWA, Quit!

Lear 70 is the only level headed person on this board and I wouldn't mine pulling his gear, but not for some punk b eatch entitled AT Capt!


GK AND SWA ARE BEING MORE THAN GENEROUS!

Tex,

With all due respect, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Ty Webb]

Yup. You got me ....Ex Eastern Valujet guy and damn proud of it. If you've got a few minutes I'd like to tell you about the DC9. Or as we call it "The 9".

Lets start off with flight controls, and the importance of the 'Porkchop' .....

Don't forget to start your sentence with, "Back at Eastern . . . ".

Also, during the takeoff roll, make sure to push forward on the yoke really hard " . . . because that's how we did it on the Electra".

 

[Sacha]

Yup. You got me ....Ex Eastern Valujet guy and damn proud of it. If you've got a few minutes I'd like to tell you about the DC9. Or as we call it "The 9".

Lets start off with flight controls, and the importance of the 'Porkchop' .....

Hey, I didn't mention Eastern you did..... But you seem awfully defensive and touchy about that now that you mention it. Back to the original question. You compare our in house union to convicted felon and animal torturer,Michael Vick. You make numerous posts bashing ALPA not only at AirTran but at many other airlines. So again, where does that leave you? Stay on question now.
Keep the target in sight. Ty feel free to join in here. It sounds like you are going to be miserable no matter how this turns out. I assume a 98% strike vote wasn't because you were estatic about life at Airtran.


Not to mention how fun it's going to be for our F/O's who are senior to your Captains hear on Takeoff roll......"listen son, back when I was at "Critter"......

 

[dicko]

Hey, I didn't mention Eastern you did..... But you seem awfully defensive and touchy about that now that you mention it. Back to the original question. You compare our in house union to convicted felon and animal torturer,Michael Vick. You make numerous posts bashing ALPA not only at AirTran but at many other airlines. So again, where does that leave you? Stay on question now.
Keep the target in sight. Ty feel free to join in here. It sounds like you are going to be miserable no matter how this turns out. I assume a 98% strike vote wasn't because you were estatic about life at Airtran.

The Eastern quip was a joke Sacha. You seem to have some strong feelings about Eastern and Valujet. Probably for good reason, however you do seem to enjoy a good rant in that regard

I'll try to keep the "target in sight for you"; I'd be absolutely livid if my union threatened to do those things to another pilot group. Considering the fact that those actions would be post Arbitration I'd find it even more appalling. Throw in the "Golden Rule" concept and we have a nice case of hypocrisy brewing.

It's just my opinion, and No I'm not a fan of ALPA. Have you researched the DFR lawsuit and TWA ? You seem to be somebody who has some strong feelings about responsibility. If that's indeed the case, you'll be disgusted as well.

I held SWAPA in pretty high regard prior to these events. I still do to a certain extent, and hope that all of this is a bargaining position for leverage. However the tactics that were suggested go well beyond anything that I think is fair or reasonable. As I said, If my union actually acted on them to gain even more seniority I'd think it was immoral. Just my opinion.

It's time for my medicine,

Cheers,

D.

 

[dicko]

For the record; When Eastern shut down I was lying in the mud pissing on myself to stay warm. On the other side of the planet. I was also too young to hold an ATP.

I did not work for Valujet or Eastern.

 

[slaquer5]

Lear
I asked one of the reps what happens if the mec votes this down. I was told it goes to arbitration. We don't have time for more negotioations due to the voting time line. Swapa needs 45 days. I was also told mediation was a waste of time. Both sides would go back to their original proposals.[/QUOTE]

Both true. neither side is willing to give, time would be better spent preparing for arbitration.

This straight from our NC.

Would be nice if we all could just get along.

 

[Sacha]

I figured it was joke, but with some of those guys you never know. I'm not sure if you have been at other Alpa carriers or not, but my feeling as an ex-alpa guy at a few other carriers I can say that in my experience,what happened at each company was 90% due to what our guys made of the union internally and the external situations beyond our control i.e. Mgt. Economy and the like. I never looked for or believed in Alpa national to ride in on their white horse and make life fair....life ain't fair. I guess it can be compared in some ways to how people view our government. I look for the basics like a strong military, basic local police etc. Not looking for cradle to grave coddling. That's the way I look at our union, alpa or whomever you choose. I have three of my closest friends who were TWA, so I am very familiar with their situation. But I have friends,family and mentors who were Ozark, Mohawk, PSA, Bonanza, Republic and on and on and like TWA, everyone has their merger acquisition stories. They are all different and yet, they are all basically the same. I think the Jetblue guys made a mistake. Starting an in house union is expensive and time consuming and we had Herb Kelleher who didn't make the process miserable. We have had good guys running our union and some who were not so competent but all in all the guys are pretty good. It is up to us. We sure has hell shouldn't be compared to that scumbag Vick..(we have a bunch of German shepherds and Jack russels so Im touchy about that)

 

[Sacha]

For the record; When Eastern shut down I was lying in the mud pissing on myself to stay warm. On the other side of the planet. I was also too young to hold an ATP.

I did not work for Valujet or Eastern.

Thanks for your service. My Dad was a B17 guy which he is lucky to have survived, but my Uncle was 82nd Airborne and he spent many a night pissing on himself to keep warm. He was closer to his buddies(the few that survived anyway)than my Dad was with his. Not that I could have made it through the training but if I had to do it over I would have liked to have given the Airborne a shot. Oh well.

 

[Daddy]

What is DFR?

 

[Music]

What is DFR?

Duty of Fair Representation.

 

[Daddy]

Thanks

 

[Lear70]

Let's use DAL/NWA as an example. It means that once the Integrated Seniority List was issued, that any items DALPA negotiates on or for our behalf must stand up to scrutiny if later challenged to not fairly represent NWA pilots' best interests.

If there's any question, an individual or a group can file a DFR suit in Federal Court (not the grievance process). If DALPA's actions are found to be hostile, retaliatory, or discriminatory towards NWA pilots alone, it could cost DALPA hundreds of millions.

Unions go well out of their way to avoid even the appearance of a DFR violation. I believe one of your female pilots ended up with a sizable out-of-court settlement for something similar fairly recently...?