Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Can you share some of whatever you have to make me so detached from reality? I'm about to take the next hit and you continue to ramble on about some irrelevant falsehoods that do nothing more than try to micromanage a speck on a fly's a___.
In the company's last legal brief, the company claims it is not bound by the 51% vote in favor of the IBT and the Flex pilots remain at-will employees. Now let her your B.S. science degree try to marginalize that fact.

 

[Mach94]

You want reality? Talk to the 38 pilots without a job and may not get a VSP to support their families in their ultimate time of need. And the probably 50 to 100 more that will get the same fate in the immediate future. That is the reality.

As for the rest - You mean the fact that the company is right? Of course the company's right. The teamsters were voted in by the hair of their teeth, but Flexjet pilots have no contract. They most certainly are still at-will employees until they have a contract. They have no weingarten-type rights, no representation for disciplinary action or if they get fired, and of course, no furlough protection. The union vote changed nothing, will change nothing, until the JCBA is complete. And since both the company and the union have both adopted the slash and burn policy and neither want to take any prisoners, don't expect anything... anything... to change until that JCBA is complete or Options closes its doors. If I were a bettin' man I would put my money on the doors closing before a JCBA could be had, and delays to take place until a decert vote can be accomplished and the company gets rid of the 1108 once and for all.

You must not be affected by today's news, so you don't care about if you were on the street how the union is attempting to take away up to a year's pay from you. In the name of negotiations. Ricci found the perfect domino to get the union to tip on its own to destroy itself.

 

[Praetorian]

Well Flexible I have no doubt someone at Flex said everything I said word for word. I know and have talked with quite a few of the pilots on furlough and they feel the exact same way I do. However, I can assure you, I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore? And, on top of that, the whole "career expectations" thing would then of course be very good grounds for another law suit that would get rid of the DOH integration the union has done. So yeah. Not a flex pilot.

Look, I do not deny that Flexjet needs a union. In fact, Ricci's actions prove that you need one. My whole point is i'm pissed that the union did the exact worse thing they could do, to destroy the solidarity we had. And took from the pilots now without a job, and the probably 100 or so more that are now going to follow post haste, which will positively include yours truly. And because of the reasons I stated in the above paragraph, you can bet that a decert vote will happen. Ricci out-played our impulsive, emotional union leadership and gave the union the perfect bait they couldn't pass up. It's infuriating. And as a MiGs we are helpless but to sit and now watch the ship go down holding and shaking our heads.

So did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.

 

[slowtation capt]

Well Flexible I have no doubt someone at Flex said everything I said word for word. I know and have talked with quite a few of the pilots on furlough and they feel the exact same way I do. However, I can assure you, I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore? And, on top of that, the whole "career expectations" thing would then of course be very good grounds for another law suit that would get rid of the DOH integration the union has done. So yeah. Not a flex pilot.

Look, I do not deny that Flexjet needs a union. In fact, Ricci's actions prove that you need one. My whole point is i'm pissed that the union did the exact worse thing they could do, to destroy the solidarity we had. And took from the pilots now without a job, and the probably 100 or so more that are now going to follow post haste, which will positively include yours truly. And because of the reasons I stated in the above paragraph, you can bet that a decert vote will happen. Ricci out-played our impulsive, emotional union leadership and gave the union the perfect bait they couldn't pass up. It's infuriating. And as a MiGs we are helpless but to sit and now watch the ship go down holding and shaking our heads.

I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore?

 

[Mach94]

So did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.

What do you think?! Have you been paying attention? And why the hell would giving pilots a VSP not allow the union to preserve their bargaining rights? I'll tell you what they did do if they are successful at blocking the VSP. They were able to preserve those of us who are or are about to be furloughed to have a vote in the up and coming eventual decertification vote. Brilliant.

 

[Mach94]

I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore?

You forgot the part where I said if I was a flexjet pilot genius.

 

[Praetorian]

What do you think?! Have you been paying attention? And why the hell would giving pilots a VSP not allow the union to preserve their bargaining rights? I'll tell you what they did do if they are successful at blocking the VSP. They were able to preserve those of us who are or are about to be furloughed to have a vote in the up and coming eventual decertification vote. Brilliant.

Because allowing the company to unilaterally make deals with individual pilots over wages and working conditions would set a legal precedent that would nullify our collective barganing rights under the RLA and elimiminate the protections established in Section 1 (Scope) of our CBA.

I'll ask again. Did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.

 

[Mach94]

Because allowing the company to unilaterally make deals with individual pilots over wages and working conditions would set a legal precedent that would nullify our collective bargaining rights under the RLA and eliminate the protections established in Section 1 (Scope) of our CBA.

No it wouldn't. In fact that is a ridiculous statement based with no merit and no legal precedence. The truth is that scope would remain intact. The NMB would not throw out the complete CBA because the union allowed the company to give the pilots who get furloughed a VSP that is not even required in the contract and the union allowed it to happen. No judge would do so either. You know why? Because of the word "voluntary." And the fact that allowing the VSP may in fact reduce or prevent furloughs (INvoluntary). No way that would happen. What a ridiculous statement! Now who's throwing FUD?! Good grief. That's just what you tell yourself and the minions (the union's version of an FoK?!) who just follow the union blindly and do not do any research for themselves. The union F'd up on this and it will cost us everything. It is not wrong to point that out.

The company deserves the lawsuit that it has now. Ricci has violated RLA law. But the VSP did not have to be a part of this. This was the union acting in anger, and in attempting to punish Ricci, it instead committed fratricide and punished the pilots who lost their jobs and killed the union's solidarity in the process. It is despicable and unforgivable. Don't believe me still? Well, if so then you're an idiot, but let's give it a week and see what happens. The pilot group is just as pissed at the union as it has ever been with the company now. Do the math.

I already answered your question. Hope you put in for the VSP since the deadline's past and you just may be getting a pink slip. I know I probably am.

And as for worrying about violating scope?! What good is it to protect the contract if in doing so it means burning the company to the ground? Both the union and the company are in a fight to the death. Flight Options will die, it is inevitable and will happen probably in months not years. The only question remaining is whether or not SLI will prevail and the flight options pilots who will soon be out of a job and have no company at all get to infiltrate and swell the Flexjet pilots' seniority list, or if it is thrown out as not in compliance with McCaskill-Bond like the Company claims (and I doubt), and if that happens, he can then sue for some sort of change in who the merger committee is, and the merger fight continues.... and thus the 9-month clock hasn't even started yet, and tick tock here comes the NMB clock for decertification. And that clock expires in what, 18 months? Think Options will last that long? I don't.

If the union was smart they would withdraw their injunction now that they see that the company is about to furlough more in droves. The path to pursue I would think now would be to sue the company if they do not honor the VSP as stipulated. Not just for the original 38, but every furlough that happens after. Wouldn't that be a better thing for the union to be fighting for? (sigh)

 

[Praetorian]

No it wouldn't. In fact that is a ridiculous statement based with no merit and no legal precedence. The truth is that scope would remain intact. The NMB would not throw out the complete CBA because the union allowed the company to give the pilots who get furloughed a VSP that is not even required in the contract and the union allowed it to happen. No judge would do so either. You know why? Because of the word "voluntary." And the fact that allowing the VSP may in fact reduce or prevent furloughs (INvoluntary). No way that would happen. What a ridiculous statement! Now who's throwing FUD?! Good grief. That's just what you tell yourself and the minions (the union's version of an FoK?!) who just follow the union blindly and do not do any research for themselves. The union F'd up on this and it will cost us everything. It is not wrong to point that out.

The company deserves the lawsuit that it has now. Ricci has violated RLA law. But the VSP did not have to be a part of this. This was the union acting in anger, and in attempting to punish Ricci, it instead committed fratricide and punished the pilots who lost their jobs and killed the union's solidarity in the process. It is despicable and unforgivable. Don't believe me still? Well, if so then you're an idiot, but let's give it a week and see what happens. The pilot group is just as pissed at the union as it has ever been with the company now. Do the math.

I already answered your question. Hope you put in for the VSP since the deadline's past and you just may be getting a pink slip. I know I probably am.

And as for worrying about violating scope?! What good is it to protect the contract if in doing so it means burning the company to the ground? Both the union and the company are in a fight to the death. Flight Options will die, it is inevitable and will happen probably in months not years. The only question remaining is whether or not SLI will prevail and the flight options pilots who will soon be out of a job and have no company at all get to infiltrate and swell the Flexjet pilots' seniority list, or if it is thrown out as not in compliance with McCaskill-Bond like the Company claims (and I doubt), and if that happens, he can then sue for some sort of change in who the merger committee is, and the merger fight continues.... and thus the 9-month clock hasn't even started yet, and tick tock here comes the NMB clock for decertification. And that clock expires in what, 18 months? Think Options will last that long? I don't.

If the union was smart they would withdraw their injunction now that they see that the company is about to furlough more in droves. The path to pursue I would think now would be to sue the company if they do not honor the VSP as stipulated. Not just for the original 38, but every furlough that happens after. Wouldn't that be a better thing for the union to be fighting for? (sigh)

So, here are the relevant sections from our CBA:

1.1(a) Pursuant to the certification by the National Mediation Board in Case No. R-7072 dated March 3, 2006, this Agreement is entered into by and between Flight Options, LLC (hereinafter ?Flight Options? or ?Company?) and the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Airline Division (hereinafter ?Union?) as representative of Captains and First Officers of the Company, (hereinafter ?Pilot(s)?) pursuant to the terms of the Railway Labor Act, as amended (hereinafter the ?Act?) in the mutual interests of the Pilots and the Company to promote the safety and continuity of air transportation, to further the efficiency and economy of operations, and to provide for orderly collective bargaining pertaining to rates of pay, rules or working conditions, between the Company and its Pilots.

1.1(b) This Agreement shall supersede all previous Agreements by and between the Company and the Union or any other labor organization or individual with respect to the Pilots described above and shall constitute the sole Agreement between the Company and the Union. Any and all agreements made by the parties shall be reduced to writing and signed by the authorized representatives. An ?authorized representative? of the Union shall be any authorized agent of the Teamsters Airline Division, including the President of the Executive Board of Local 1108, or his designee.

There are a couple of import things to take note of in this language. In the first paragraph it says that, the company and the union are to bargain over, "rates of pay, rules or working conditions, between the Company and its Pilots". In the second paragraph it says our CBA is the, "sole Agreement between the Company and the Union".

With me so far?

So if the union were to allow the company to simultaneously violate the first two foundational paragraphs of our CBA by bargaining directly with individual pilots and unilaterally establishing a VSP and making unilateral agreements outside of our CBA, it absolutely would establish a president that it could do these things anytime it wanted to in the future. This would nullify our ability to collectively bargain in the future and make our union meaningless.

But you haven't answered my question. Since nothing the union has done would prevent you from putting in for the VSP why haven't you done so?

 

[greygoose]

Because allowing the company to unilaterally make deals with individual pilots over wages and working conditions would set a legal precedent that would nullify our collective barganing rights under the RLA and elimiminate the protections established in Section 1 (Scope) of our CBA.

This is exactly where the confusion is, this is not a contract extending employment for "X" amount of years. This is a resignation agreement thus not falling under the same rules that you are arguing.

 

[shanes123]

I don't see how the union signing off on the VSP is compromising the CBA. If they signed off on it both parties would be in agreement. This has only caused more diversity among pilots. This was a really dumb move. Again who cares if a bunch of OLD Fks leave. Good riddance. Let's worry about the guys here that have 20-30 years left till retirement. Not a bunch of guys that should of been buried years ago.

 

[DirtyBeech]

You stay classy Shane Diego.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Options has had three furloughs and they used basically the same LOA. Why is it so important for this VSP not to include the same protections? If the old f_rt leaves, he isn't going to return. The junior guy might want to. Why should he give up his recall rights?

 

[doh]

I don't see how the union signing off on the VSP is compromising the CBA. If they signed off on it both parties would be in agreement. This has only caused more diversity among pilots. This was a really dumb move. Again who cares if a bunch of OLD Fks leave. Good riddance. Let's worry about the guys here that have 20-30 years left till retirement. Not a bunch of guys that should of been buried years ago.

You need to do a little research. It absolutely has been tried before, and it does nullify our bargaining rights if we allow them to do that. It must be negotiated and in a letter of agreement.

 

[Mach94]

Options has had three furloughs and they used basically the same LOA. Why is it so important for this VSP not to include the same protections? If the old f_rt leaves, he isn't going to return. The junior guy might want to. Why should he give up his recall rights?

First, a VSP has never been offered before. Therefore, the language in the LOA referring to the VSP obviously makes that LOA not the same as the previous LOA's.

If and old f_rt wants to retain his recall rights he doesn't have to take the VSP. The VSP is voluntary, and for those who DO want to permanently leave. Obviously.

I already explained earlier the absurdity of the union trying to force the company to allow a pilot taking the VSP to be allowed to retain his recall rights. That just makes the VSP a paid vacation with absolutely no benefit to the company, and only prolongs the still inevitable furlough that his seniority number was supposed to mitigate. Stop smoking crack. It is the union, not the company, that made an unreasonable demand, and in the process screwed those who did or are about to lose their jobs. Look around. You are about to lose your job. Maybe this week, maybe in the next 12 months.

The union is being asinine by keeping a VSP from every one of us. It is only losing our support in droves and accomplishing nothing but punishing pilots and destroying itself in the process.

 

[Mach94]

You need to do a little research. It absolutely has been tried before, and it does nullify our bargaining rights if we allow them to do that. It must be negotiated and in a letter of agreement.

FUD. Obviously, if the union signs the LOA the company provided it is in agreement and nullifies nothing and lets those pilots get their VSP. No, it wouldn't have everything the union wants. As stated, some of those wants are ridiculous, but it does give the union something - a VSP to those who want it that is granted by a company under no obligation to even give any. The union's actions have only created a lose-lose situation for it and its pilots and the company still furloughs anyway. Real genius move, there.


FUD!

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Mach.094, you are very slow to catch on.

 

[Mach94]

Yeah? Well, when the decert vote is finished and the 1108 goes bye bye, all because the union wanted to take the VSP from its own pilots, we'll see who was slow to catch on. Carry on, minion.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Name calling already? Just adds to your credibility.

 

[Mach94]

Hmm. I have 24 posts. I was called names from my first one for simply voicing my opinion on something that for other than a union minion, is a legitimate and true reality. Being called a management kronie, tool, or FoK. Union minion seems appropriate to me based on those responses. I couldn't possibly be a MiGs and think outside the box that the union tries to put is all in. Apparently you are not allowed a voice if you are to be a MiGs. And just think. Flexjet is seeing this. Seeing what happens to one of the union's own who speaks up and says hey, what the hell are you doing?! It's a mistake. Stop!

You need a kleenex or something? Get over it. "Minion" is being polite. The union is attempting to cost many of us about to lose our jobs a years' pay for idiotic reasons with nothing but FUD for weak explanations as to why. All it is doing is pissing us off more. This has become very personal, and I am not the only MiGs who is now more pissed off at the union than I am the company. So go ahead. Attempt to ostracize those of us who have varying opinions to the union minions. See what that does. (That would be a troll statement. Your fault if you take the bait.)