DOH you don't know what would have happened and if that did happen all the better for the Union. Then the union could have sat back and said " Look we tried to work with the company we agreed to their poor excuse of a VSP and they still can't run this company properly" That may have built up some trust among these stupid pilots. But any chance of that is now lost. How KR outplayed the union on this is mind boggling.
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Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned
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GlorifiedCabbie
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So on Friday, the company told the union negotiators that they were unable to schedule any meetings for the following week. Naturally the negotiators went home to await the company response. On Sunday night the company said they would only be available on that Monday. Of course the negotiators were unable to get back that quick, so in their deposition, in federal court, the company claimed it was the union's fault for not meeting.
GlorifiedCabbie
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I am doing what I always do. Calling it as I see it. I support the union 99% of the time. And if there was a union vote today it would still be a yes vote for me. But the VSP was handled wrong. And it has damaged this group for what I fear is beyond repair. The union leaders need to admit the mistake and fix it. The VUH board has fell all but silent probably because people are afraid to say something was handled wrong on that board. Bottom line is nobody is right 100% of the time. But admitting a mistake goes a lot farther then trying to argue it and try to convince everyone else you are right. Especially when 40 pilots on the street and another 550+ sit and watch.
When has the union ever admitted they made a mistake? Never. Just like the company. And shanes123 I agree with you, the fact that the union can't even admit it only makes things worse.
In the last 2 days whenever I met a flight options crew in an FBO guess what they were talking about? Not SLI. Not about the JCBA. Every time, they were bitching about the union's actions on the VSP and I was walking into a very familiar conversation, sounding very much just like this one. Pilots are worried they are next, and pissed off the union is trying to take away the VSP.
In the last 2 days whenever I met a flight options crew in an FBO guess what they were talking about? Not SLI. Not about the JCBA. Every time, they were bitching about the union's actions on the VSP and I was walking into a very familiar conversation, sounding very much just like this one. Pilots are worried they are next, and pissed off the union is trying to take away the VSP.
It appears that the pilots at Flight Options/FlexJet are working for a management team that is hell bent on creating turmoil and infighting within the ranks. The sad part is, it's working.
If Ken Ricci wanted to make it all good, he could. He's playing you guys one against the other with great success.
The Mach94 guy with the recent posts is awfully suspicious. He's blaming everything on the union. I would definitely listen to what your union leadership has to say.
Good luck guys.
If Ken Ricci wanted to make it all good, he could. He's playing you guys one against the other with great success.
The Mach94 guy with the recent posts is awfully suspicious. He's blaming everything on the union. I would definitely listen to what your union leadership has to say.
Good luck guys.
Dirty Squirrel
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Soooo the FJ guys are morons, but who is eating each other here?
That's a fair statement, flexpilot. You're right, you haven't normally seen this kind of chatter from the options pilots about the union. That was because for the most part, the union's decisions and actions were predictable and for the good of the pilot group. What you see here are MiGs who are now pissed at a most catastrophic, expensive, personally impacting mistake union leadership is making regarding those losing their jobs. It's despicable. And I for one am listening to the union leadership. I just am not buying their reasons for their actions and not about to just "toe the party line" when such a disastrous mistake is being made. I can't afford to. Not much I can do but let others here know they aren't the only ones feeling the way I am.
How would you feel if you were about to get kicked out the door and lose your job, probably not for the first time, but this time you know the company will probably be shutting its doors and there's no reason or ability to return, could have got a $100,000 check on the way out to help speed you on your way and assist you as you take a pay cut at the bottom of the next seniority list, but the union says "not so fast" and keeps you from it? Think you might speak up about that?
This is a colossal mistake that will ultimately destroy our very union we all worked very hard for as it just bottomed out our solidarity, which was already weakened. That decision will affect Flexjet as well, as now you won't have the solidarity for when the inevitable decertification vote is a reality.
It is very sad that it has come to this and the union would risk everything over something that quite frankly wasn't worth the overall outcome, especially for those losing their jobs. Regardless of the lame excuses the union has given us.
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It was probably an impossible deal that was never going to happen in the first place.
If he was going to kick you out the door, he'd do it. Why should he give you a parting gift? Ken Ricci is not known for his generosity.
Oh, he wouldn't, unless there was something in it for him. We all know that.
The PR would look better for his potential owners making the issue look more practical for his "market shift" rather than laying off at a time when no one else is laying off. It makes him look like a pragmatic business man who cares about his employees. (puke)
But I think the real reason is he knew it was the perfect bait to destroy the union. He knew if he let the union be the reason those of us leaving don't get that paycheck, it will destroy the union's solidarity. Brilliant, huh? And the union fell for it hook, line and sinker. And yep. We ARE pissed. He played all of us. And the extremely irritating part is that we, those losing our jobs, know we are nothing but a pawn for both sides, but we are the ones directly affected. It is our lives. Real lives. Real families this affects. Ricci managed to use the perfect tool to shred our support.
I feel like a pig who watched Ricci hand the gun over to the union as it lines us up in the stall to be killed one at a time and sent to the smoke house. And there is nothing we can do about it except watch it happen as we are slowly pushed into the slot, watching each pig in front of us executed one at a time by the union for a cause none of us now care about. And the union is frustrated they are doing it but pulling the trigger anyways, executing each of us in turn, and Ricci is standing there with an evil face, just laughing at us.
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So he could rub it in the face of others down the road, that they had the option to take it earlier but didn't. Doesn't sound nice to say, but sure seems like something he would do.
Admittedly I'm not necessarily up on all all the low down of union ins and outs but none of this makes sense. As far as I know not a single real flex jet pilot cares about any of this. The only ones who care are extremely anti union and they apparently understand it less than me
This is as I believe was coined a political furlough. Not based on need or realities or even bonified business restructuring.
Therefore the object was to make union look shifty no matter what happened anywhere.
Confused why you can't see into that and simmer down. You were never going to get what the magic leprechaun promised you might. It's all a game. The only party who done wrong is management. The fact 30 plus posts have explained very reasonably so even this moron can understand union had no choice is curious why you continue to protest.
I simply don't believe you are seeing the outrage you profrss. And I have been to vehicle trying get to see were you are saying union demanding recall rights. All I see if a negotiation suggestion that was ignored. A first step where everyone first offer is unreasaonsble. There is no demand you speak of. Where is it?
This is as I believe was coined a political furlough. Not based on need or realities or even bonified business restructuring.
Therefore the object was to make union look shifty no matter what happened anywhere.
Confused why you can't see into that and simmer down. You were never going to get what the magic leprechaun promised you might. It's all a game. The only party who done wrong is management. The fact 30 plus posts have explained very reasonably so even this moron can understand union had no choice is curious why you continue to protest.
I simply don't believe you are seeing the outrage you profrss. And I have been to vehicle trying get to see were you are saying union demanding recall rights. All I see if a negotiation suggestion that was ignored. A first step where everyone first offer is unreasaonsble. There is no demand you speak of. Where is it?
993_Pilot
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For the last friggin' time, the union never denied or attempted to deny the pilots the VSP, they only wanted to negotiate, perhaps get a better deal, but most importantly, get it in a written, legally enforceable LOA. How friggin' hard is this to understand?... but go ahead stick your head back down in the sand and carry-on.
GlorifiedCabbie
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slowtation capt
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Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 22:38
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 22:19
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 21:40
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 20:19
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 19:14
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 13:51
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 12:59
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 12:40
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 12:27
Forum: Fractionals Yesterday, 00:45
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 21:36
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 21:33
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 20:08
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 19:28
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 17:54
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 15:48
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 15:31
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 15:12
Forum: Fractionals 05-01-2016, 13:51
Forum: Fractionals 04-30-2016, 22:43
Forum: Fractionals 04-30-2016, 21:48
Forum: Fractionals 04-30-2016, 14:59
Forum: Fractionals 04-30-2016, 12:39
Forum: Fractionals 04-29-2016, 12:48
Forum: Fractionals 04-29-2016, 11:29
Forum: Fractionals 04-29-2016, 10:43
Forum: Fractionals 04-29-2016, 09:57
Forum: Fractionals 04-29-2016, 00:07
Forum: Fractionals 04-28-2016, 23:49
Forum: Fractionals 04-28-2016, 20:59
Seriously, you have had time to fly, let alone meet other FO pilots in fbo's. Which by itself is even a rarity today that you run into other FO pilots at fbo's
Looks to me that the only thing that you have had time to do is post.
Negotiate a better deal??????? A VSP is a better deal.....anything at all is a better deal. The other option is Furlough. VSP is giving a choice. A furlough is not a choice. That's the better deal right there. And anyone that believes KR would not have followed thru or furloughed anyway like a said before. That's even better yet now it's on him. This went down on the union. Agree to the VSP sign off on it and the ball is in KR court let him take the hit or prove again he's the reason we need a union. This is so simple and to get outplayed on this is not acceptable.
Hmmm. Someone else has lots of time too apparently, but yep. I did have time to post! Those darn airplanes. They can be so... broken. Your point?! You think I'm lying about what's going on in the pilot lounges of the FBO's, huh? Someone's in denial.
Boy you REALLY want to know that. Wonder why. Hmmm.
GlorifiedCabbie
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doh
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Here is why I would like to know. If you are really convinced you are on the chopping block and that management is right on this, and you keep hammering those two points ad naseum, you will have taken the vsp and be moving on. If you are just spewing some management troll line, you will not have taken the vsp. So yes, I'd like to know if your money is where your mouth is. I'll apologize for calling you a troll if you are gone.
slowtation capt
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did it before I even made through half of my morning cup of coffee. With all the sitting around for 2 days at fbo's on broken airplanes, I'm guessing you made around $1000 extra
993_Pilot
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Even if it was the exact same deal, the union is attempting to make sure that the program is administered fairly. However, the company would rather cherry pick who goes and when, without any transparency, method or target numbers disclosed. You don't find anything the least bit suspicious about that? You don't think they would cherry pick union supporters? ... or the oldest pilots?.... or the ones with the most history of sick leave? or some other arbitrary criteria that the company sees as beneficial? Of course they would.
The reality is that the company could easily negotiate an agreement with the union about the terms, if the company was also willing to agree to numbers and methods. Instead, they chose to use the recently recalled pilots as pawns in KR's big gambit to get rid of the union, then spin it like the big bad union isn't looking out for the pilots it represents... and you are falling for it! KR's tactics are exactly why this company needs a union in the first place. You may not like or understand why the union does what they do, but at least they are trying to do things fairly, unlike our management team.
You're damn right we're falling for it. The union's semantic, unnecessary, knee-jerk reactions for reasons that are so ridiculous (throwing out the CBA. Laughable) because they are angry with management's refusal to negotiate were equally wrong and are costing all of us about to be out of a job up to $100k. If I get my pink slip and I don't get my VSP it is the union's fault. period. And I can't forgive that, and I will remember that when the inevitable decertification vote happens, because thanks to the union, instead of a VSP, I will be furloughed and have a vote.
The union likes to harp on management not being transparent, lying, and being dishonest. None of the union minions want to comment on the fact that both EV and JB sent letters to the company begging the company to at least have compassion and to please give those who were furloughed "the same VSP they gave the Flexjet pilots." The Company did just that. To the furloughees and offered it for anyone interested. Yes, there were limitations, but considering they didn't have to give one at all as it's not in the contract, so what. Those who were furloughed were going to be taken care of. The union could have streamlined the injunction to only be for those not furloughed and left the furloughed pilots out of the injunction. But instead, the union reneged on their begging for the VSP to be given to the pilots and has filed an injunction to take it away from them. In that move the union looks just as shady, just as dishonest, selfish by demanding recall rights to a VSP which would have only ensured the most senior to get a paid vacation and when they return another inevitable furlough, and obviously did that in spite of knowing what that does to the pilots now on the street, and now many more of us are going to follow any day. Obviously, the union's agenda is more important than those who got furloughed, all to make a point.
Despicable, unforgivable move. Exactly as Ricci hoped it would play out. And now, in the end, he will win.
The union likes to harp on management not being transparent, lying, and being dishonest. None of the union minions want to comment on the fact that both EV and JB sent letters to the company begging the company to at least have compassion and to please give those who were furloughed "the same VSP they gave the Flexjet pilots." The Company did just that. To the furloughees and offered it for anyone interested. Yes, there were limitations, but considering they didn't have to give one at all as it's not in the contract, so what. Those who were furloughed were going to be taken care of. The union could have streamlined the injunction to only be for those not furloughed and left the furloughed pilots out of the injunction. But instead, the union reneged on their begging for the VSP to be given to the pilots and has filed an injunction to take it away from them. In that move the union looks just as shady, just as dishonest, selfish by demanding recall rights to a VSP which would have only ensured the most senior to get a paid vacation and when they return another inevitable furlough, and obviously did that in spite of knowing what that does to the pilots now on the street, and now many more of us are going to follow any day. Obviously, the union's agenda is more important than those who got furloughed, all to make a point.
Despicable, unforgivable move. Exactly as Ricci hoped it would play out. And now, in the end, he will win.
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GlorifiedCabbie
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Ricci will not win because he was just caught in another lie. According to his statements in AIN, Ricci claimed the VSP was so well received, that 70 pilots accepted his offer. He even said he expected to be sued by the union but was going to proceed anyway. Backup to his previous statement that due to realignment of the fleets, he had 80 pilots more than needed. So why did he just furlough 40 pilots? I smell a rat.
993. Once again. A who cares how it's administered. 1. ITS VOLUNTARY 2.ITS A BETTER DEAL THEN THE FURLOUGH 3. ONLY PEOPLE LEAVING ARE LOOKING TO LEAVE ANYWAY.
So let's do this then. Every pilot that's over age 62 (You can collect SS) let's ask them to resign and make way for the younger guys that have families to support and don't have a savings built up yet and are not eligible for SS. We got old F that are collecting pensions from military and past careers working here. They don't need the FING money their just selfish greedy A Holes. Most non union supporters if not all of them. They can't see, hear, and barely able to keep the plane upright anyway. not to mention being able to fit in the damn cockpit.
Or sign off on the VSP.
So let's do this then. Every pilot that's over age 62 (You can collect SS) let's ask them to resign and make way for the younger guys that have families to support and don't have a savings built up yet and are not eligible for SS. We got old F that are collecting pensions from military and past careers working here. They don't need the FING money their just selfish greedy A Holes. Most non union supporters if not all of them. They can't see, hear, and barely able to keep the plane upright anyway. not to mention being able to fit in the damn cockpit.
Or sign off on the VSP.
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I don't have a dog in this fight but I have a couple of questions. Aren't furlough rights and a VSP two different animals? They often come up together since a company that wants to lay people off would usually prefer to get rid of senior people who are paid more instead of the guys at the bottom. The company is paying a premium to influence people at the top to leave so, of course, there are no return rights. Furlough rights, on the other hand, usually involve a specified amount of pay and recall rights. What am I missing here?
Helm
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doh
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Helm, what's missing is management wants 100% control over who can take the vsp. Seniority is not honored. They won't sign a Letter of Agreement, they want this to be outside the contract. They want to deal directly with the pilots in violation of the RLA. Several guys are trying to say it will not affect bargaining rights going forward, but that is simply not true. It will negate bargaining rights going forward for those of us who stay. That is what is missing.
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