Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned

[exagony]

I'm not speaking for the union as i don't know inner workings and speak to my P2P rep on a regular basis. My P2P rep explained to me that the union wasnt necessarily against the VSP, they just wanted a LOA to cover it. Ricci and mgt won't negotiate with the union, they want it their way or nothing. This is not how union/company relationships work. The company can't just set policy for pay benefits schedules etc without the consent of the union. The union has a say in such policies and how they are implemented. Should the IBT just allow the company implement the VSP without negotiations it would set the precident in court that the union will allow the company to set pay and benefits without the consent of the union. Funny how the union is fighting for 1 year of pay and recall rights for those furloughs, you forgot to mention that part in your post. The company is the one who refuses to negotiate in good faith which is a blantant violation of federal law. Ricci continues to knowingly and willingly break federal law. A fellow crewmember remarked that Kenn Ricci has been sued in Federal Court something like 15 times in the past 15 years and has lost every time. mach94 appears to be a troll.

 

[Mach94]

Should the Union take away $70,000 from those who were furloughed to prove a point about making the company sign an LOA? NO. They shouldn't have.

And the serious part that people seem to not comprehend is that a voluntary separation agreement is just that. Voluntary. Separation. You don't get to "come back" when you take a VSP. From anywhere. That is the whole point. You agree to permanently leave, they agree to give you money and help send you on your way, removing the obligation the company had of having to bring you back. The company was willing to buy those seniority numbers and not have the obligation to have to recall those pilots, and those pilots taking it know it and agree to it. But no. The Union is too greedy to let that transpire...

If the Union were to get their way, then the "VSP" would not be a "VSP", it would be an expensive vacation, as all the pilots who would take it would be the senior pilots at the top of the seniority list (because the LOA demanded it be done by seniority) who will take 12 months off and still make over $100K. Great. People move up and upgrade to replace those leaving, right? Insert cost of upgrading people flowing up. What costs? Well guys in the Legacy or any Captain leaving cause vacancies and people may have to get a new type rating, or at a minimum possibly move from or to the Phenom from the Beechjet. And flood the training department with upgrades, IOE, etc. Yes. Those are real costs. But wait. The company is still really reducing, and still has no need for all those guys. But thanks to the LOA, after 12 months, due to the LOA, the company is forced to take those guys back, at the top of the list making over $100k again. Insert recurrent training costs there. And yes, now they may be overstaffed and forced to move those guys who moved up in one fleet to go back down to where they were in the other fleet. More training costs. And the end result to the company is all they did was double their training costs with zero salary savings for that year, and still ended up furloughing.

Yeah, that's right, now they have to furlough again because they still don't need all those extra bodies. End result: Senior guys got 12 months off paid vacation. Bottom guys got a 12 month delay to their eventual pink slip. And the company paid a tremendous amount of training costs they wouldn't have had to if they'd simply furloughed to begin with. And the company still has all those guys at the top of the list still making all that money, and they only got rid of the cheaper bottom of the list guys who are now, finally, furloughed. If the Union had not interfered, all the furloughed pilots would have 12 months of pad to find another job that more than likely will not be but about half what they made at Flight Options, and others, higher up the chain making over $100k would have also had an opportunity to leave and take a severance, saving the company salary money in the long run. And no one got hurt. The furloughs were going to be furloughed anyway, and those who took the VSP who weren't furloughed now feel better off as well. Union dumbasses. No company would ever agree to all that, and the Union knows it. They burned the furloughs for a cause they could never obtain. At a cost they should have never been willing to pay... our overall solidarity and therefore the end result is eventual decertification, and rightfully so. The Union deserves to be decertified after this debacle.

It makes zero sense for the company to give pilots 12 months of paid vacation with an obligation to take them back. What the hell is the point of that? How does that benefit the Company in any way? No company would do that, when what they are trying to do is reduce the work force. The Union screwed it up for those who were furloughed, and those about to be, and anyone with half a brain can see that. All in the name of "they didn't negotiate it with us." Sorry, that does not fly as a valid reason to cost our pilots who would be on the streets anyway, 12 months' pay. The union got greedy, and they took away a large sum of money from the furloughed pilots by demanding something no company, anywhere, would agree to. And the company isn't done furloughing. And the Union played right into Ricci's hands. Idiots.

The Union has lost a lot of respect from a lot of us. All the furloughed pilots, and if you are not in the top 40% of today's existing flight options seniority list, you should be very worried you are the next round of layoffs, and thanks to the Union's stupidity, you could have got a year's severance and now you may not get squat. Unless, hopefully, the Union loses in Court. And I for one never thought I'd be rooting for the Company in a case against the Union. Times change. When I'm furloughed, I'd like my severance. And the Union does not have my back on this. Their agenda is no longer mine.

I'm pissed. For my friends who needlessly lost their VSP if the union wins in court, and for myself, when it's my turn to get that eventual pink slip.

 

[doh]

One more time: post count...troll...do not feed.

 

[Mach94]

In other words, don't give me more fuel to be right. Now there's a troll post. ;-p

 

[Club ORD FO]

....nevermind. I already posted once this month.

 

[doh]

Anyone notice the desperation? Almost as bad as phildo on the yam...hmmm...

 

[Bjtdrvr]

Actually management could still have negotiated and given 12 months of pay as the union requested but still stuck to their guns about no recall rights. That would be true negotiation and then none of what you are talking about would be relevant BUT the company outright refused to even consider negotiating anything! That is the true KR only now he feels emboldened because of the lack of support! Wake up peeps! That is exactly what he has done at Flex from the beginning! He does whatever he wants to do and says what he thinks you want to hear!

 

[doh]

^^^this^^^

 

[993_Pilot]

Actually negotiating is the whole point of "negotiations" with the elected representative bargaining agent for this pilot group. Apparently Troll Mach94 doesn't get that. It is really immaterial whether you are among the furloughed or simply a KR troll, the scenarios you paint make a lot of ASSumptions about how this will all play out in the courts/NMB, and if I were a betting man, I would to lay down money that the IBT will win far more of the grievances that they have filed than KR and his posse of yes men. Ultimately, time will tell.

So, if you aren't a troll Mach94, and really do hate Kenn Ricci and all that he stands for, go ahead, put it on record and list the reasons for us.

 

[Mach94]

Yeah, that's fine, you can think that. Isn't it interesting that anyone who doesn't follow the party line and regurgitate the 1108 leadership's wishes is instantly a troll, a KR supporter, and a general all around bad person. Hmmm. If you're not with us you're against us. That is tyranny. Newsflash. The 1108 leadership works for us. Not the other way around. And yes, they make mistakes. And when they do, they should be pointed out. And this is what happens when you try to do that. You get ostracized and painted as the bad guy. Paying attention, Flexjet?

That response just proves another point though, that as long as you get yours, who cares about those under you on the seniority list. However. If you are Flexjet guy, you probably are salivating at the idea of SLI being tied up in court long enough to have a decertification vote and keeping the Flight Options pilots who are fighting Kenn Ricci to the death (and it's obvious who will win that battle) from bloating their seniority list with their going out of business job.

Pilots are already standing on the street holding their pink slip saying "but I supported the Union and did everything they asked us to." Many more are about to follow. Probably within a month. And for no other reason than just to spite management and try to "force them to negotiate" the Union is attempting to take a year's pay from their families. Not the Company, THE PILOTS. Yes. That is wrong. Yes. I'm pointing it out. And you try to paint me as a "troll" for doing so. Shame on you. And everyone's watching.

 

[993_Pilot]

I am not painting you as anything, I simply asked what it is that you hate about Kenn Ricci. Since you claim that you do, this shouldn't be a problem for you to answer. However, if you are a troll who is on this message board only to further KR's anti-union agenda, then you will again ignore that question and keep spewing.

So, what is it you hate about Kenn Ricci?

 

[warlord19]

Mach 94, your posts are spot on and correct. That is why you are attacked by Duhhh and other union tools who have no response other than calling you names, etc.

There is NO support left at Flex after this latest fiasco the IBT has pulled off, and a decert vote WILL happen before any contract is hammered out.

Flex pilots have had the opportunity to hear about and fly with FO pilots for a while now, and while there are some super pilots there, the majority are ingrained with the IBT credo of fatigue “issues"(3 to 4 times the Flex rate), idiotic write-ups, and bragging about how they f*cked the company doing this or that. They don’t seem to have any problems with having their “brothers” pick up their load. It’s been an education for many.

I would love to see us vote in a PROFESSIONAL union after the decert, but that’s another matter. Getting rid of this POS that just screwed a whole lot of folks should be our number one priority.

WL

 

[Mach94]

I am not painting you as anything, I simply asked what it is that you hate about Kenn Ricci. Since you claim that you do, this shouldn't be a problem for you to answer. However, if you are a troll who is on this message board only to further KR's anti-union agenda, then you will again ignore that question and keep spewing.

So, what is it you hate about Kenn Ricci?

Ah. You want to change the subject. No thanks. My being upset right now is with what the Union has done to our pilots by taking a year's pay from them and soon to be me. The UNION. TRYING TO TAKE MONEY AWAY. From THE PILOTS. For nothing other than a "bargaining chip." And what did the Union gain by this injunction? Nothing except HURTING PILOTS NOW WITHOUT A JOB.

It is hypocritical because the Union has done nothing but chastise management for furloughing the pilots for the same reason and using pilots' jobs - their lives, their family lives, as pieces in a game. Then the Union does the same thing. That is what i'm upset about. Not Ricci being Ricci. He will always do what he's done. But now the Union has stooped to his level and used those same pilots' lives and their family's lives in a game and trying to take the VSP from pilots lost or about to lose their jobs is nothing but vengeance against Ricci but it isn't Ricci getting hurt by that. It is only the Union's own. He obviously saves that money if the Union is successful. Furious about that. Yes.

No one is looking out for the furloughed pilots in this battle. They are cannon fodder. And those who were already sacrificed are just the beginning. More casualties are about to be had. And I"m about to be one of them. And in the all or nothing battle the Union has now engaged in, it is clear that both the Teamsters and Ken Ricci are not afraid to burn the place to the ground to prove their point. My resume's are out and I can only hope I can get another job, at probably a pay cut, before I get furloughed, since the Union is adamant that I shouldn't get any severance because it wasn't negotiated by them. Sorry. Been a MiGs forever, but I do not support a Union railroading pilots' severance to force bargaining. The only people that hurts is pilots, not the Company, and that does not make any sense. It is greed and a lack of compassion. This could have been handled differently without directly affecting the pilots who lost their jobs or are about to in the next wave we all know is coming soon. Thanks a lot.

 

[V1 Rotate]

I don't get how you people don't understand what happened here?!? Ricci admits he's going to break federal law. He refuses to to negotiate, which he's required to do, with the Union for an LOA to allow for the VSP. The Company demanded an answer within hours of surprising the Union with this VSP request when they were suppose to be negotiating fences. The Union responds with better language and longer terms, but the Company said no. The Union tried repeatedly via e-mail to talk with the Company but those e-mails went unanswered. Everyone knows that if Ricci gets away with this, then the Union's negotiating power to represent it's pilots going forward has been subverted. So spare us all the nonsense. You'd have to Helen Keller not to know what's going on here. I'm also curious which union, besides the Teamsters, you think will suffice? ALPA? They won't touch us. I, and others, tried. Or maybe that silly uniform union, or whatever it was, that was suggested by someone on Yammer long ago. Obviously, I'm not a fan of our Leadership nor am I of unions for the most part. But what I am passionate about is my seniority, what's left of it, and my rights as a dues paying union member not to be subverted by our Leadership.

 

[imacdog]

Looks like the payments to Ford and Harrison have cleared.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Well troll you seem to be overlooking several material facts. The $70,000 per furloughed pilots pales to the amount the remaining pilots will sacrifice if Ricci's end run around the CBA is allowed to stand.
The next inconvenient fact was the Union put in writing what management said they would agree to. When it came time to sign the LOA, the COMPANY LAWYER stepped in, and said NO! This falls squarely in the company's lap. This POLITICAL furlough can be blamed on no one other than KR himself.

 

[Mach94]

F off. You're the troll. Furlough yes. You are absolutely right, that's all on Ricci.

Taking the money out of the pilots' pockets - that was the Union doing that, even after the union begged Ricci in two separate letters to "please just let the furloughed pilots have the same VSP they gave Flexjet." The company did exactly that, and the UNION is attempting to take it away from them.

Unforgivable mistake. And you watch. It will cost the 1108 everything because they did it. Bye bye 1108. It's just a matter of waiting for the NMB clock to run out. And the 1108 deserves it for doing what they did. They did not have the strength to pull that off and it is game over already.

 

[doh]

Let's NOT change the subject. This is not about furlough pay. This is about you saying this is such a sh**y, non career job that pilots should give up any recall rights. You are fundamentally misunderstanding what is going on here. So either you are a troll, or you need a serious education. If management once gets to bypass negotiation to set terms of compensation, WE WILL FOREVER LOSE THE RIGHT TO NEGOTIATE FOR COMPENSATION!! So it doesn't matter if this is the deal of the century for a handful of pilots!!!! IT MUST NOT BE ALLOWED!!!! And if a pilot once accepts this, s/he is forever barred from returning. That means the 50 pilots hand job says are being hired on the Flex side will not be recalled furloughs. You may not be a troll like warturd, but you aren't making any sense from a legal, contractual point.

 

[Mach94]

Time will tell, won't it? I completely understand the union's stance on why they did what they did. It is you who does not understand how wrong they were to do what they did, how selfish and needless their reasonings why, and how they did it. That the reasonings should not have been at a needless cost to those either on the street or about to be at a tune of a year's wages, and what it has now cost them for doing it. The union sunk itself in doom by (attempting) slaughtering the furlough pilots' VSP. And now, whether the union is successful or not at that slaughter, the damage is done. The solidarity is gone and won't come back.

You are right about the dead-end job though. What a mistake it was to most of our careers by coming to this place. And for giving it a chance and sticking it out with a union with no teeth. The sad part about that is that most of us have had almost an entire career of working at the bottom of the industry fractional company. The RTA guys half a career. And are still here. And 10 years of a substandard pilot group with a weak union that has never had any teeth and is only worse since aquiring Flexjet. Sad indeed.

Flight Options is done. Ricci and/or the union will burn it to the ground in this battle, and the holder of the wild card will win, that being SLI. No matter who wins Flight Options is out of business in 2 years or less. Much sooner if Ricci has his way. If the company wins out and gets a decert vote going before SLI is settled in court then Ricci wins and Options goes away and Ricci gets Flexjet without adding senior Flight Options union supporting pilots to his Flexjet roster. What an interesting mess that would be. If Options closes its doors before SLI is settled, then all the flight options pilots are on the street, only flexjet pilots are flying, and the union is left defending a bunch of pilots who can't pay dues because all of them are now on the street. But way to show Ricci to force him to negotiate! And oh yeah. no one gets a VSP. Serves them right for demanding the unobtainable (recall rights to a VSP!). However. If the union wins in court over SLI then Flight Options is still doomed but the Flexjet list will be inflated with Options pilots who had no job, however the decert happens anyway as the union threw away the support they had with this fiasco. The main point being, regardless of SLI, 2 things are now going to happen: Flight options goes out of business, and a decert vote will not only happen, but it will be a land slide victory for Ricci. He will have Flexjet without the 1108, and Flight Options will be nothing but a brown stain on Ricci's underwear.

The union (barely) had a chance to beat Ricci at his game and at least get integrated and save some flight options pilot jobs by getting them added to Flex's list until they showed their true colors and showed all the pilots at Options that they only care about the top of their list, not any pilots that will be let go (by demanding unreasonable demands like the right to return from a VSP... most idiotic thing anyone's ever heard of and has zero precedence in 100 years of unionized pilots) and showed Flexjet that they don't care about what happens to a pilot once he's let go, and cost each and every one of them $50,000 to $70,000 needlessly over a cause that no one but Teamsters international supports. The union no longer has the support to stop a decert vote from winning. And every miserable day that brings more bad news to the pilots will only further ensure Ricci's victory. He out-played us.

 

[993_Pilot]

You obviously have no grasp of what is really at stake or what the union is trying to accomplish here. The union is not trying to prevent the furloughed pilots from getting a package at all, on the contrary, they are trying to get it all spelled out in a written, legally binding LOA. Perhaps you don't like the terms that the union first proposed, but I doubt anyone ever expected that the company would readily agree to their first counter proposal, however they did expect them to actually negotiate like they are required to do by the RLA. What would you have had them do?... bow to KR's will without questioning it or getting an LOA? Do you actually have any faith that KR and his team of merry-men would actually live up to that unsanctioned VSP agreement for an entire year? He!!, they won't even live up to their legal obligations now. What good is having a union if they don't enforce the contract and attempt to negotiate the best for the pilots that they represent. If the union simply caved to Kenn Ricci's demands, they would be seriously marginalized and it would be game over already. It is only by standing up for what they believe is right and for what is best for the entire pilot group that they have a chance. I am sorry that this will apparently hit you personally, and I would probably be pretty bitter if I was in your shoes too, but maybe you could take some of that frustration out on the management team that used you and others like pawns in their chess game and caused this whole mess. Look at the bright side, everyone else is hiring. Best of luck to you.